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MineMan
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Highest VOD binary explosives?
Hi all. We know that high nitrogen fuels are the best for VOD, such as hydrazine and ammonia mixed with AN..
Question. Ammonia has to low of a boiling point and I can’t find any supplies for hydrazine other than sigma and the such... were have all the
medium tiered supplies gone?!
I know, in explosive enegineering Paul cooper lists some other molecules that I have never heard of or been able to gather any information from.
I am looking for VODs above 8000m/s...
Thought of NA mixed with NM but appearently according to ligature VOD is below 7kms, doesn’t seem right.
What are the best available highest VOD fuels?
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Microtek
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Tetranitromethane and toluene in stoichiometric proportions is supposedly very powerful. Hexanitroethane and TNT or tetryl as well.
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MineMan
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Quote: Originally posted by Microtek  | | Tetranitromethane and toluene in stoichiometric proportions is supposedly very powerful. Hexanitroethane and TNT or tetryl as well.
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Tetranitromethane looks extremely toxic. I. Was hoping to use this for a very niche industrial product. But I need extreme VOD.
Now Hexanitroethane. That looks good. Any ideas on what the synth is like? Looks promising but for industrial use probably too expensive. Ahhh. Why
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Dornier 335A
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Two liquids, one oxidizer and one fuel, is a good way to get an intimate mixture and near ideal performance.
Tetranitromethane is very very toxic but combinations with any flammable liquid has VoD of at least 7000 m/s. Dense liquid fuels are of course best
and TNM/nitromethane has the highest VoD I've calculated so far at 7990 m/s.
RFNA has lower density and mixtures have VoD below 7500 m/s. I calculate RFNA/NM to 6740 m/s and RFNA/nitrobenzene to 7350 m/s.
There are a few high density oxidizers that can be combined with either solid or liquid fuels (or OB negative explosives) to give outstanding
performance. Getting an intimate mixture is more difficult of course.
Hexanitroethane (https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=68...) has OB +43% and density ~1.88 g/cc and can be combined with for example DNT to
reach 9050 m/s, tetryl (9140 m/s) or benzotrifuroxan (9770 m/s).
Bis(trinitroethyl)nitramine, BTNENA is another one with better density (1.95 g/cc) but worse OB (+16.5%). An OB mixture with benzotrifuroxan reaches
9800 m/s! Both BTNENA and BTF perform like HMX on their own though...
Ammonium dinitramide is also a good one, with +26% OB and pretty good density (1.81 g/cc) but I don't know if mixtures with ADN behave like an ideal
explosive (thin reaction zone behind the shock wave). Assuming it does, ADN/fuel oil reaches 8000 m/s and combinations with nitroaromatics adds a few
hundred m/s to that figure.
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MineMan
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Great answer dornier!! It does seem however that hydrazine and AN would be the cheapest, safest and least exotic? Paul cooper mentions AN with other
high nitrogen fuels such as ammonia can reach very high levels... only issue with ammonia is the boiling point... any way to make this a none issue?
Maybe in a pressurized container it wouldn’t be so bad? It sure would be cheap.
Any VODs for ammonia and AN or ammonia and H2O2?
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Dornier 335A
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Alright here are some calculated values:
ANFO (94/6) at 0.88 g/cc: 4690 m/s. Measured VoD extrapolated to infinite diameter is 4800 m/s so good agreement.
AN/hydrazine hydrate (76/24) at 0.88 g/cc: 4640 m/s, at 1.2 g/cc: 5600 m/s
AN/32% ammonia solution (69/31) at 0.88 g/cc: 4180 m/s, at 1.2 g/cc: 4970 m/s
The conclusion I draw from these figures is that fuel oil is a better fuel at a given density. But since ANFO is very non-ideal, it has to be used at
a low density (0.88 g/cc in this case) and that limits the VoD severely. In fact, increasing density beyond some point decreases VoD! If for example
hydrazine gives a more ideal mixture, it can be used at higher density and thus higher performance.
Adding ammonia solution to concentrated H2O2 only lowers its VoD (which is 6150 m/s) according to my program.
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MineMan
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Dornier! Thank you!
I have read that hydrazine an AN reaches 8600m/s. Unless this value is false and is just misquoted often...
I should mention by binary I mean any amount of ingredients mixable, not just two.
Do you know of any other high nitrogen super fuels?
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Vomaturge
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According to Wikipedia, astrolite is liquid, meaning it should have high density and uniform mixing. That together with the exothermic decomposition
of hydrazine, could explain the high velocity. As far as the ammonia, a kilo of AN can dissolve in roughly 300 gms of anhydrous ammonia,
depending on temperature. So roughly half the AN would be dissolved in an anhydrous ammonia binary. Also, ammonium perchlorate is supposed to form "ammoniates" (like hydrates, I guess?) with 2 to 6 mols NH3 per mol of NH4ClO4. Not likely to be the fastest, but it would
still be good to know if NH4ClO4.2(NH3) was explosive, and if so what velocity.
Hmm. I wonder if you could make ammonia gas dissolve into high test peroxide without it just reacting.
Edit: the higher the temperature, the less ammonia is needed to dissolve a given amount of AN. But above about 23-26C, the ammonia was 'boiled' out of
the mixture at atmospheric pressure .
Also, a mixture of liquid oxygen and propane should produce about 8.6kj/gm of heat. Unfortunately, the melting point of propane is very close to the
boiling point of oxygen, and the two are only sparingly soluble
Attachment: divers1873.pdf (1.6MB)
This file has been downloaded 504 times
[Edited on 8-6-2019 by Vomaturge]
Attachment: Extendedabstract_AIChE2007_Houssin.pdf (919kB)
This file has been downloaded 578 times
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by Vomaturge | According to Wikipedia, astrolite is liquid, meaning it should have high density and uniform mixing. That together with the exothermic decomposition
of hydrazine, could explain the high velocity. As far as the ammonia, a kilo of AN can dissolve in roughly 300 gms of anhydrous ammonia,
depending on temperature. So roughly half the AN would be dissolved in an anhydrous ammonia binary. Also, ammonium perchlorate is supposed to form "ammoniates" (like hydrates, I guess?) with 2 to 6 mols NH3 per mol of NH4ClO4. Not likely to be the fastest, but it would
still be good to know if NH4ClO4.2(NH3) was explosive, and if so what velocity.
Hmm. I wonder if you could make ammonia gas dissolve into high test peroxide without it just reacting.
Edit: the higher the temperature, the less ammonia is needed to dissolve a given amount of AN. But above about 23-26C, the ammonia was 'boiled' out of
the mixture at atmospheric pressure .
Also, a mixture of liquid oxygen and propane should produce about 8.6kj/gm of heat. Unfortunately, the melting point of propane is very close to the
boiling point of oxygen, and the two are only sparingly soluble
[Edited on 8-6-2019 by Vomaturge] |
This is excellent information! I suspect AP mixed with ammonia or hydrazine is very fast. Any ideas to get around the pesky boiling point...? Meaning
we can’t have liquid ammonia at 15C... correct?
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XeonTheMGPony
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ammonia boils at apx -30c+- at sea level in open atmosphere
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Vomaturge
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If I understood the 1873 paper, and the Wikipedia article that made me search for it, ammonia in AN solution is less volatile, similar to what happens when you absorb it in water. It
can be made by blowing gaseous ammonia into AN powder. Divers' solution loses ammonia rapidly at room temperature, but it's vapor pressure isn't a
full atmosphere until 23-26C. So on a cool day, you could store it in an airtight bottle or bag, without requiring any high pressure vessels. The
problem would be how to uniformly mix the solution with the extra AN needed to get a useable fuel-oxidizer ratio. I'm curious how much AN you could
dissolve in anhydrous ammonia at say 50C and elevated pressure.
According to that table from Wikipedia, lithium nitrate should make a stoichiometric solution with ammonia, but lithium is far too rare and expensive
to burn for some mundane pyrotechnic.
As far as the AP ammoniates, the stoichiometric ratio is 3(NH4ClO4).5(NH3) so NH4ClO4.(2NH3) isn't all that far off. I still don't know if these
"ammoniates" are solid, liquid, sea level&room temp, high pressure, high temp, or cryogenic. I guess it's time for more online research.
Also, I don't know how much ammonia's nitrogen content helps it as a fuel. After all, it takes energy to break it into hydrogen and nitrogen. If AN
and ammonia is a powerful combination, I'd more likely attribute that to ~50% of the oxidizer being in solution, and the rest being a solid suspended
in the solution. Imagine making tannerite or gunpowder or something, but all the fuel and half the oxidizer has been ground into individual molecules,
less than a nanometer across.
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by Vomaturge | If I understood the 1873 paper, and the Wikipedia article that made me search for it, ammonia in AN solution is less volatile, similar to what happens when you absorb it in water. It
can be made by blowing gaseous ammonia into AN powder. Divers' solution loses ammonia rapidly at room temperature, but it's vapor pressure isn't a
full atmosphere until 23-26C. So on a cool day, you could store it in an airtight bottle or bag, without requiring any high pressure vessels. The
problem would be how to uniformly mix the solution with the extra AN needed to get a useable fuel-oxidizer ratio. I'm curious how much AN you could
dissolve in anhydrous ammonia at say 50C and elevated pressure.
According to that table from Wikipedia, lithium nitrate should make a stoichiometric solution with ammonia, but lithium is far too rare and expensive
to burn for some mundane pyrotechnic.
As far as the AP ammoniates, the stoichiometric ratio is 3(NH4ClO4).5(NH3) so NH4ClO4.(2NH3) isn't all that far off. I still don't know if these
"ammoniates" are solid, liquid, sea level&room temp, high pressure, high temp, or cryogenic. I guess it's time for more online research.
Also, I don't know how much ammonia's nitrogen content helps it as a fuel. After all, it takes energy to break it into hydrogen and nitrogen. If AN
and ammonia is a powerful combination, I'd more likely attribute that to ~50% of the oxidizer being in solution, and the rest being a solid suspended
in the solution. Imagine making tannerite or gunpowder or something, but all the fuel and half the oxidizer has been ground into individual molecules,
less than a nanometer across. |
That’s what makes emulsions, so fast. Small sticks under a pound shoot at 6000m/s with just diesel, AN, water and micro balloons to reduce the
density. This, however would be at full density. According to Paul Cooper AN/NH3 is somewhat similar to astrolite (AN/hydrazine).
My question, is there a better fuel? From my research out of all of the inorganic high weight nirtrogen dominant molecules hydrazine and ammonia are
the most available and least exotic?
Philou mentioned a while back what he referred to as super fuels, which were carbon and nitrogen molecules, but I do not know chemistry enough to even
know what this class is called?
AN with hydrazine or NH3 should be at a higher density than all other AN mixtures. Emulsions shoot at 6000m/s with densities in the 1.2 range. So.
With AN and ammonia, the density being 1.5-1.6... I think it would be very fast... and without carbon the detonation products would be light....
Damn. If only we had access to borohydrides or siliconhydrides. Now that would be a super fuel...
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Σldritch
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I would guess nitramide mixed with some reducing agent would have a higher VOD than any equivalent AN mixture as it has one less water molecule.
Nitramide and hydrazine ought to be quite powerful.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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Best from all is here above described is AN - emulsions. But are here 2 main problems. Necessary special device : High-shear rotating head. (expensive
machine) And quality emulgator PIBSA (unavailable)....
Development of primarily - secondary substances CHP (2015) Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite and KC primer (2024)
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov | | Best from all is here above described is AN - emulsions. But are here 2 main problems. Necessary special device : High-shear rotating head. (expensive
machine) And quality emulgator PIBSA (unavailable)....
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Right... however there are water soluable fuels. I am thinking instead of water 30 percent ammonia hydroxide should be use... then a water soluable
fuel such as ethylene glycol. But. Best of all would be hydrazine. LL. With hydrazine we are talking 8600m/s with AN... as you say, beauty in
simplicity 
The big question is does one need 100 percent hydrazine or does 64 percent due? What about hydrazine sulfate dissolved in ammonia hydroxide??
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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100% hydrazine is unstable. But hydrazine sulfate dissolved in ammonia hydroxide (30%?) is interesting idea. With AN + ethylene glycol, of course.
Near stechiometric ratio.
(Mad mixture-......... ).......
Development of primarily - secondary substances CHP (2015) Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite and KC primer (2024)
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caterpillar
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Who knows what is the VoD of NCl3?
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov | 100% hydrazine is unstable. But hydrazine sulfate dissolved in ammonia hydroxide (30%?) is interesting idea. With AN + ethylene glycol, of course.
Near stechiometric ratio.
(Mad mixture-.........)....... |
Want to give it a try LL?!
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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I have not hydrazine or his sulfate = no testing.......Thanks for asking....
Development of primarily - secondary substances CHP (2015) Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite and KC primer (2024)
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underground
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCovDr4FVNQ
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XeonTheMGPony
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I'm getting sick of this reaction, been doing a crap load of batches to build up a stock of it, need to just run it swimming pool sized batch!
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underground
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| Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony |
I'm getting sick of this reaction, been doing a crap load of batches to build up a stock of it, need to just run it swimming pool sized batch!
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He looks to got not that bad yields on his video. Here another video with almost the same procedure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0fiKkREk4g
You may miss something
[Edited on 14-6-2019 by underground]
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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A two component field mix explosive composition comprising a first solid component comprising ammonium nitrate or mixtures of ammonium nitrate with
ammonium perchlorate, and a second liquid component comprising as a first ingredient hydrazine, a second ingredient which is water, alcohol or a
mixture thereof, and as a third ingredient ammonium nitrate in an amount no greater than about one-sixth of the total weight of the second component.
At the site of use the liquid component is poured into the solid component to form an explosive composition. This composition is detonable in elongate
packages as small as one inch in diameter, by use of a blasting cap.....Source:..... http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4042431.html
Development of primarily - secondary substances CHP (2015) Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite and KC primer (2024)
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C6(NO2)5CH2CH(CH3)N(NO2)2
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I find the idea of a High-performance binary very interesting. Basically, nitric acid is an oxidizer in its own right, and has been used as such in
rockets. When you chemically combine it into something like picric acid or PETN, only some of that oxidizing capability is transferred into the
compound. It would be much more cost effective if you could just combine nitrates or other oxidizers with a fuel, without any wasteful chemical
reaction. The central problem is getting enough oxidizer dissolved into a fuel. Unless the reactants can dissolve, not all of the reaction will happen
at the shock front. Take ammonal, for example. If you could a) get all the aluminum to react at the shock front, and b) compact it to it's theoretical
density (AN~2.5g/cc, Al~2.7g/cc) you would have a composition that would likely exceed 10 km/sec. But because the aluminum does not react immediately,
you will never get anywhere near those velocities.
Making a solution of a fuel and oxidizer will enable the reaction to happen much more rapidly, but the fuel has to have high energy and low oxygen
requirements too. Water-based solutions of hydrazine, glycol etc will have too low of energy. Methanol will dissolve a near-ideal amount of calcium
nitrate, but only when near it's boiling point. Anhydrous, or near-anhydrous hydrazine is probably one of the few fuels which can hope to exceed 8
km/sec.
By the way, this
paper:https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjCstSns-niAhXuGDQIHeLK
DlAQFjAAegQIAxAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.575.4948%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&usg=AOvVaw10C1o
d3DL667lmjYr5sRqa
mentions an effective emulsion with 77.66% AN, 4.68% NaN, 11.22%H2O, and 5.4% wax fuel. How can that little water dissolve that much AN at room
temperature?
Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by C6(NO2)5CH2CH(CH3)N(NO2)2 | I find the idea of a High-performance binary very interesting. Basically, nitric acid is an oxidizer in its own right, and has been used as such in
rockets. When you chemically combine it into something like picric acid or PETN, only some of that oxidizing capability is transferred into the
compound. It would be much more cost effective if you could just combine nitrates or other oxidizers with a fuel, without any wasteful chemical
reaction. The central problem is getting enough oxidizer dissolved into a fuel. Unless the reactants can dissolve, not all of the reaction will happen
at the shock front. Take ammonal, for example. If you could a) get all the aluminum to react at the shock front, and b) compact it to it's theoretical
density (AN~2.5g/cc, Al~2.7g/cc) you would have a composition that would likely exceed 10 km/sec. But because the aluminum does not react immediately,
you will never get anywhere near those velocities.
Making a solution of a fuel and oxidizer will enable the reaction to happen much more rapidly, but the fuel has to have high energy and low oxygen
requirements too. Water-based solutions of hydrazine, glycol etc will have too low of energy. Methanol will dissolve a near-ideal amount of calcium
nitrate, but only when near it's boiling point. Anhydrous, or near-anhydrous hydrazine is probably one of the few fuels which can hope to exceed 8
km/sec.
By the way, this
paper:https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjCstSns-niAhXuGDQIHeLK
DlAQFjAAegQIAxAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.575.4948%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&usg=AOvVaw10C1o
d3DL667lmjYr5sRqa
mentions an effective emulsion with 77.66% AN, 4.68% NaN, 11.22%H2O, and 5.4% wax fuel. How can that little water dissolve that much AN at room
temperature? |
AN has a density of 1.7... emulsions usually top out at 1.2, they need microballons to detonate.
Emulsions are not made at room tempature. When we load holes for mining it comes out very hot.
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