| Pages:
1
2 |
unome
Hazard to Others
Posts: 134
Registered: 17-10-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
NMP - Purification - Ideas?
I am having an absolute bastard of a time trying to work out a decent road to purifying NMP (from low-odor paintstripper).
N-MethylPyrrolidone is a dipolar, aprotic solvent (ie. same class as DMF & DMSO), and it is easily acquired, albeit in a seriously nasty
polymer forming emulsion.
The gel that it is in appears to be similar to that in the DMC (used for the same applications), but the problem is that NMP is seriously water
soluble (data sheet). That kind of complicates things somewhat...
As does the presence of the gelled crap with it - it has a decently high bp (202'c 1atm), which is well and truly within range, but it is going to
leave one hell of a mess on glassware when that fucking gunk lets left behind. Not so big an issue with DCM, it boils at a little over room
temperature.
Anyone got any ideas? I've looked even at the patents (and some papers) on recycling it, but they all use multi-stage distillation @ reduced pressure,
which is what I'm trying to avoid (reduced pressure = glassware + gunk, while heat = solvent container and homemade condenser, plus a crapload of
tar-gunk).
Anything that is going to salt it out? Or cause phase-separation? I'd dearly love to avoid distilling it with the gunk in it.
|
|
|
gardenvariety
Harmless
Posts: 41
Registered: 19-1-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Is the gel/junk water soluble? If not, it seems like dissolve the NMP in water, then freeze or distill out, is the obvious solution.
What is the gel, exactly?
|
|
|
Eclectic
National Hazard
Posts: 899
Registered: 14-11-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Obsessive
|
|
Try mixing a small bit with equal part isopropanol, then add salt.
Hopefully the gel will stay in aqueous layer and the NMP will salt out with the isopropanol.
|
|
|
unome
Hazard to Others
Posts: 134
Registered: 17-10-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'm reading around the traps, apparently butanol, and other alcohols are added to improve the miscibility of the goop and to prevent phase-separation
(must be the polymer that is trying to push the NMP out of solution for mine)... So CaCl2 should be useful (based on experience with EtOAc), it will
grab the alcohols and salt out - HOPEFULLY
The gel is probably a water soluble polymer, quite possibly one of the normal ones, either a cellulose or even PVP, either way it forms quite a funky
gel. As an aside, this stuff smells GOOD, as solvents go, it should be quite nice to work with odour-wise.
[Edited on 5-3-2010 by unome]
|
|
|
Panache
International Hazard
Posts: 1290
Registered: 18-10-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Instead of being my deliverance, she had a resemblance to a Kat named Frankenstein
|
|
Sorry is there a reason you don't just vacuum distill it from the goop?
|
|
|
The_Davster
A pnictogen
Posts: 2861
Registered: 18-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: .
|
|
This is where the construction of apparatus from metal pipe parts comes in handy. A cheap metal still body could easily be replaced, and allow you to
separate the NMP.
|
|
|
unome
Hazard to Others
Posts: 134
Registered: 17-10-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
No real reason I can't just vacuum distill it from the crud - I just dislike the idea of fucking hard-to-replace glass, which is pretty much necessary
for the Vacuum Distillation. Realistically, 200'C and atmospheric distillation is probably a more realistic choice, the distillation could then be
done in steel/copper vessels (even the solvent can it comes in, most of the time anyway).
I'm spending everything I can get on components for the spectrometer idea (plus a shitload of time)...
Be back to this soon
|
|
|
Panache
International Hazard
Posts: 1290
Registered: 18-10-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Instead of being my deliverance, she had a resemblance to a Kat named Frankenstein
|
|
a standard 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 or 9kg/L bbq/camping/propane/lpg gas cylinder has a fitting that can be easily adapted to accept a b19 or b24 maLE socket,
just use teflon tape to build up the glass socket/round glass joint, after this use the vessel as you would a glass one of the same volume, however
remember it is mild steel and as such won't like acids much, so neutralise anything that goes in it.
Voila!!
|
|
|
mr.crow
National Hazard
Posts: 884
Registered: 9-9-2009
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: 0xFF
|
|
NMP looks like a great solvent to replace DMSO, which degrades after a few years.
When I was a kid I used a BBQ tank to store air for a potato cannon. They have a standard 3/4 inch thread. It stank every time it fired, so that's not
a good idea!
On that youtube channel where he makes the ton of chloroform he also uses an old freon tank to distill benzene. Maybe this would be better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYyw_hrXrZ8
It would be easy to make the whole setup out of copper, no need for glass adapters. Maybe just one for the receiving flask.
Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and caldron bubble
|
|
|
Panache
International Hazard
Posts: 1290
Registered: 18-10-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Instead of being my deliverance, she had a resemblance to a Kat named Frankenstein
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by mr.crow  | NMP looks like a great solvent to replace DMSO, which degrades after a few years.
When I was a kid I used a BBQ tank to store air for a potato cannon. They have a standard 3/4 inch thread. It stank every time it fired, so that's not
a good idea!
On that youtube channel where he makes the ton of chloroform he also uses an old freon tank to distill benzene. Maybe this would be better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYyw_hrXrZ8
It would be easy to make the whole setup out of copper, no need for glass adapters. Maybe just one for the receiving flask.
|
I would assume that after stripping the nmp from the 'goop' a second more careful distillation from glass with a column would be needed. I assume
this would also take care of the thio's hanging around from the vessels days as a lpg/propane vessel.
That video is the most professional 'jerry job' i have ever seen, if i could jerry things up that neatly i'd video my work also, lol.
'Do it proper do it in copper', but you have to be able solder well, something i can't manage to master (i can't even solder electrical connections
very well, maybe 2/5 attempts hold, ha i love it that all humans are just really shit at something no matter how hard they try at it.)
|
|
|
chemrox
International Hazard
Posts: 2961
Registered: 18-1-2007
Location: UTM
Member Is Offline
Mood: LaGrangian
|
|
looks like a fun molecule for making Schiff bases and running annelation reactions to build heterocycles. Can you get a MSDS for the product? That
would help in developing a separation strategy. BTW toluene is sold in cans at the hardware store and most of us use a lot of DCM. Both of these
irritate the liver. It was a cold winter where I live and I was remiss in not ventilating enough although my system can move a lot of air. I'm now
taking a lot of milk thistle and using gloves meticulously as well as running my fans whenever I'm working in the lab. Pay heed; high sgot &
sgpt are no joke!
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
|
|
|
densest
Hazard to Others
Posts: 359
Registered: 1-10-2005
Location: in the lehr
Member Is Offline
Mood: slowly warming to strain point
|
|
@panache - flux is the key to soldering copper, steel, aluminum, and any other metal forming an oxide film. Electrical joints need a rosin-type flux
with only organic acids. Aluminum needs special fluxes - fluorides? Stainless steel needs fluoride flux or something equivalent, though zinc chloride
works for many alloys. The solder will only flow where the metal has been cleaned & fluxed. Pipes need to have the outer oxide layer removed with
fine abrasives like 300 grit aluminum oxide. Then add flux fairly liberally and heat. Touch the solder to the joint but don't add it until it starts
to flow. Add solder quickly and evenly - it will flow towards the heat. Once the solder starts flowing well distribute the heat and solder over the
joint.
Flexible mains cord is very difficult to solder. Most power connections should use crimped connectors applied with a crimping tool not pliers. That is
considerably more reliable than soldering.
@unome - why can't you vacuum distill in metal? If you need to block heat transfer, stainless steel is close to a heat insulator. Copper pot,
stainless elbow, copper condenser with stainless tee to vacuum and output flask. Compression fittings can bridge metals and allow disassembly. Some of
the fittings are specialized and can be found on EBay etc. at reasonable prices (a few $ each) and with a teflon (lowish temperatures) or copper
(higher temperature) washer are gas tight and vacuum tight. I forget the name of the fitting type - it's the original manufacturer's name. You can use
silver solder for any area that gets really hot. That requires the joints be very close fitting and heated well so you use a very tiny amount.
|
|
|
not_important
International Hazard
Posts: 3873
Registered: 21-7-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Something to consider when considering fabbing a metal still for NMP
| Quote: | | NMP does not react with most metals, including steels, aluminum, nickel, silver, gold, chromium and chromates, copper, tin, and silicon. However, it
should not be used with bronze or brass valves in process piping. |
I've been told that when hot it will slowly react with copper to some extent when O2 is present, but I've not seen any formal data on this.
|
|
|
mr.crow
National Hazard
Posts: 884
Registered: 9-9-2009
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: 0xFF
|
|
While we are on the topic of NMP, would it be possible to synthesize it? The synthesis I found uses GBL, no thanks!!!
My theory is monosodium glutamate from the grocery store can be decarboxylated to GABA, and then the ring closed to form the amide pyrrolidone (how?).
But then the n-methyl is missing and would be too much trouble to add. Pyrrolidone may be just as effective a solvent.
Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and caldron bubble
|
|
|
not_important
International Hazard
Posts: 3873
Registered: 21-7-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Glutamic acid easily cyclises to pyroglutamic acid (2-oxo-pyrrolidone carboxylic acid, 5-oxoproline, a recent source of e-spam), even in hot water to
some degree. The mono N-methyl acid does so as well, and can be prepared mixed with the N-dimethyl acid using oxalic acid and paraformaldehyde; as
the di-Me acid can not cyclise separation is not too difficult.
But NMP is an industrial chemical manufactured on a large scale, and increasingly being used as a cleaning solvent. I suspect it's not worth the
effort and cost of preparing it from MSG.
|
|
|
mr.crow
National Hazard
Posts: 884
Registered: 9-9-2009
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: 0xFF
|
|
NMP is actually super expensive from Fishersci. Maybe it is much cheaper for technical grade from another supplier.
Oh I found this  http://www.greenbuildingsupply.com/utility/showProduct/?obje... good luck getting rid of the PVC resin though
Does pyroglutamic acid decarboxylate easily? Then it is a simple procedure to prepare your own polar aprotic solvent.
Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and caldron bubble
|
|
|
bahamuth
Hazard to Others
Posts: 384
Registered: 3-11-2009
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
Mood: Under stimulated
|
|
I found one type of paint stripper which they sell in Scandinavia from Biltema, and the MSDS was easily found. http://biltema.no/Documents/faktablad/36-018.pdf
Begun extraction just for the fun of it after reading this post.
The first thing I tried was centrifuging at 21000 G's for 60 min. in eppendorf tubes, microscale. This yielded about 35% of clear supernatant and the
rest a very viscous gel.
The polymer in this gel is Polyacrylic acid, which I figured might have similar properties as Sodium polyacrylate in accordance to the destruction of
the gel properties in Sodium polyacrylate by the action of Sodium chloride http://depts.washington.edu/chemcrs/bulkdisk/chem142A_aut05/...
Further I added a pinch of Sodium chloride to the remaining gel in the tubes, mixed as good as possible and spun it for another 20min at 21000 G's,
and ended up with about 10% more supernatant, yielding all in all about 45% of supernatant.
Scaled this up to 50mL tubes skipping first step and just added salt and spun at 6000 G's for 10 min and got a semi solid as lower phase and a clear
liq. supernatant. Noticed that at those speeds; micro fissures formed in the 50mL tubes, rated at 16000 G's; wetting the tube on the outside. Yield
appeared better than the above microscale approach, but did note take measurements.
Then the real problem, which I haven't got to yet, the separation and purification of the NMP.
Will post my findings on a later occasion.
Also, any suggestions on how to improve extraction and separation is welcome; do have opportunity to vacuum distill but wanted another approach with
less work and cleanup.
PS. The MSDS gives wrong "chemical name" for the NMP, but correct CAS and INCI name, as do the container.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
|
|
|
Panache
International Hazard
Posts: 1290
Registered: 18-10-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Instead of being my deliverance, she had a resemblance to a Kat named Frankenstein
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by bahamuth | I found one type of paint stripper which they sell in Scandinavia from Biltema, and the MSDS was easily found. http://biltema.no/Documents/faktablad/36-018.pdf
Begun extraction just for the fun of it after reading this post.
The first thing I tried was centrifuging at 21000 G's for 60 min. in eppendorf tubes, microscale. This yielded about 35% of clear supernatant and the
rest a very viscous gel.
The polymer in this gel is Polyacrylic acid, which I figured might have similar properties as Sodium polyacrylate in accordance to the destruction of
the gel properties in Sodium polyacrylate by the action of Sodium chloride http://depts.washington.edu/chemcrs/bulkdisk/chem142A_aut05/...
Further I added a pinch of Sodium chloride to the remaining gel in the tubes, mixed as good as possible and spun it for another 20min at 21000 G's,
and ended up with about 10% more supernatant, yielding all in all about 45% of supernatant.
Scaled this up to 50mL tubes skipping first step and just added salt and spun at 6000 G's for 10 min and got a semi solid as lower phase and a clear
liq. supernatant. Noticed that at those speeds; micro fissures formed in the 50mL tubes, rated at 16000 G's; wetting the tube on the outside. Yield
appeared better than the above microscale approach, but did note take measurements.
Then the real problem, which I haven't got to yet, the separation and purification of the NMP.
Will post my findings on a later occasion.
Also, any suggestions on how to improve extraction and separation is welcome; do have opportunity to vacuum distill but wanted another approach with
less work and cleanup.
PS. The MSDS gives wrong "chemical name" for the NMP, but correct CAS and INCI name, as do the container. |
How many 50ml tubes can you spin at a time? The graffitti remover available in australia is simply a mix of solvents, no gel and about 75%NMP so we
have life a little less bothersome. That said it does cost ~$AU30 for 500mL so not cheap but everywhere sells it.
Perhaps you may be able to blow out the NMP from the gel with a fine bubbler running air, nitrogen or argon at say 80C, the carrier gas takes anything
volatile with it. The gas is then cooled forming a fog which is laden with the volatiles. i believe the technique is called 'insert name of carrier
gas used' stripping. The 80C i just guessed at, if you have a dew pointer it would help you with setting the experiment up. If you want further info
on this let me know as i have been meaning to do a lit review on the state of the art and this may inspire me. Is it used industrially AFAIK for
stripping ethanol out of low alcohol fermentation mashes using nitrogen at 30C and this is the purpose i am interested in.
As for the cracked tubes where they brand new or ad some tech washed them int he dishwasher clucking them together repeatedly?
|
|
|
bahamuth
Hazard to Others
Posts: 384
Registered: 3-11-2009
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
Mood: Under stimulated
|
|
I can spin 6 50mL tubes at once, but have not scaled up yet.
Discovered something about the gel, if Sodium chloride is mixed with the paint stripper and frozen, the gel falls out and should give a larger yield
but have not had time to do more..
Also have access to a Sorvall centrifuge which goes up to 50000 G's and takes 6 times 300mL but have not tried it yet...
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
I would try getting a big glass liquor bottle and using silicone caulk or something similar to attach it to a glassware vacuum distillation column.
As long as heat is applied relatively slowly, I've found that the glass that food and drinks comes in is actually quite durable. Then just throw the
bottle away, tar and all.
|
|
|
MrG
Harmless
Posts: 5
Registered: 26-9-2018
Member Is Offline
|
|
Ok so has someone extracted gbl successfully from nmp mix? Can I use a lab freezer for fractional freezing to a solid and removing?
|
|
|
MrG
Harmless
Posts: 5
Registered: 26-9-2018
Member Is Offline
|
|
duplicate post
[Edited on 26-9-2018 by MrG]
|
|
|
MrG
Harmless
Posts: 5
Registered: 26-9-2018
Member Is Offline
|
|
???
[Edited on 26-9-2018 by MrG]
|
|
|
Dr.Bob
International Hazard
Posts: 2733
Registered: 26-1-2011
Location: USA - NC
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Its really hard to purify NMP and get it dry. If you can find any source of the pure material, it will help a lot, as it is one of the hardest
solvents to purify or dry easily. But it is a great solvent for some reactions, such as amide formation (eg, peptides on resin) and some
specialized ones, like alkylations. But often the workup is to dilute with water to ppt the product, which makes it nearly impossible to recover the
NMP. If you look, someone on Ebay or other place will sell it.
|
|
|
MrG
Harmless
Posts: 5
Registered: 26-9-2018
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob | | Its really hard to purify NMP and get it dry. If you can find any source of the pure material, it will help a lot, as it is one of the hardest
solvents to purify or dry easily. But it is a great solvent for some reactions, such as amide formation (eg, peptides on resin) and some
specialized ones, like alkylations. But often the workup is to dilute with water to ppt the product, which makes it nearly impossible to recover the
NMP. If you look, someone on Ebay or other place will sell it. |
I want to remove NMP from GBL. Could I do this by freezing nmp to its melting point?
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
