Sciencemadness Discussion Board - New information For UK chemists

posted on 5-2-2018 at 12:55

I find it really odd that they seem so hung up about acetone...

I wont be giving any details on the how etc, but I have looked into the above carefully. It appears alot depends where you live, its kind of speculation (but with good evidence) that the more south you are, the easier it is to get an EPP.

There could be many reasons, one of which i suspect includes larger numbers of informed people inspecting.

I think there are wider issues also, which again sounds cryptic, but it is starting to get harder to give information. The more people I talk to, the more information I get.

However for good reason, many of these people do not want me to give out the information. Which makes it bloody hard!

I have now spoken with 6 people who are licensed, all six dont want to come forward (i understand this). Each however has something in common, while also some differences.

I thank all those who have come forward, its been very helpful. I think the hobby needs to change, I also think those further away from the capital are having a harder time.

The big thing that has come out however is the difference between England and Scotland. Both use the same anti terror frame work, both are supposed to use the same EPP framework.

But the massive difference is the actual system of law, Scotland does not have the same legal system, this is hard to grasp. Having come from England I used to think it would be 'more or less' the same.

I will give you a really good example.

In England you have the CPS, they decide what goes to court etc. in Scotland we have the procurator fiscal, on paper both jobs are pretty much the same. In reality they are very very different.

Legal power in Scotland seems to be extremely decentralized at a local level. In England the lower court is the magistrates court, normally you have around 3 of them sit and hear a case, they then go and chat behind the scenes and deliver the verdict.

Also in England when your up in court, you stand and can defend yourself, you may speak with the magistrates and give evidence.

This is way different to Scotland, I will come back and detail the system here in a day or so. But here think more along the lines of a small American court where the judge is god.

That is exactly what the sheriff and his court is like in Scotland, its a system I have seen alot of, mainly for school and mainly because its almost medieval and fascinating to see in action.

The point is, on a number of occasions i have been told, you should just do X or Y, and things like " They cant do that by law".

I think some have too much faith in the law, I honestly think people believe they are playing on a level field. Maybe in some places you are, I have had several exchanges where I completely believe the person.

But there experience is not the norm, compared with some others. One really sticks out at me, the big difference was the outcome. I relayed the event to the person who I spoke too. I wont give ANY details, but yes they are a member.

We have spoken by phone, I cant give zero details of who or exactly what was discussed, but they were honestly shocked when I spoke of another situation I have knowledge of.

It was completely different from there experience, but it does show it dosnt always work how you think.

Now I will detail one incident I have knowledge of, first I need to think this through carefully, I am acutely aware people are sharing real experiences and deeply personal information.

It can be difficult to give enough information, without giving so much, that it becomes easy to google and identify that person. So be aware I need some time with this.

To those home chemists who have not had a visit yet, if you got things you need a license for, then go get one. Yes that is a change of advice, actually unless you really need the chemical get rid of it.

Those who have come forward from here, and live in the UK, all agree on one thing.

Take shooting in the UK as a hobby, many have a firearms license, they have special gun safes and strict procedures are gone through. While on the one hand they are technically Amateur gun owners, they are not amateurs.

They take the hobby extremely seriously and comply with every detail, those that dont have much to loose. I think its time we looked at our hobby, the days of Amateur chemistry by Amateurs is long over.

I dont care what law you THINK applies or not, dont rely on the written law to save your arse, this is exactly what got Bloggers. He was positive the law was on his side, and actually in many ways the letter of the law is on his side.

I know one here thinks the likes of REACH is business only, and according to law this is true, but that is amateur thinking. I would start to treat your hobby in a much more professional manner.

No there is no law that says you have to keep 2.5kg below shoulder height, if your an amateur, but do it anyway. Act like professionals, it cost little if anything to replicate how industry behaves, print labels, label everything.

Sodium Carbonate is a white powder, a pot with black pen stating the container of white powder, is sodium Carbonate, does not give someone who has never seen that tub before confidence.

THINK about it, you know its Carbonate, to every other person (especially those actively seeking terrorist), it's a unknown white powder. Sure you wrote carbonate in pen on it, but honestly what would you trust more? a lab with every container labeled with proper labels, or a lab with sauce bottles and marker pens?

This is what I mean by amateur, like it or not, how we present ourselves and our labs, really counts to those who dont know us but have power over us.

And just to state a little unknown fact, in the UK the law is what they tell you it is. What bothers me alot about bloggers is the life ban on chemistry, does anyone else see this as a clear sign that home chemistry is no longer wanted?

Does it then not fall to each of us to be like gun owners in the UK, the price of our hobby is professionalism. Asked yourself an honest question, if two gardens down you heard a gunshot, how would you react? What would you think? (this is a UK thing or EU thing).

Well to those who dont do chemistry, loud bangs and flashes have the same type of reaction.

I will leave it there for now. But if anyone from the EU, has similar views, then please get in touch. A number of people in a similar situation, would like to try and shape the way things go.

I will be upfront however, if your a closet chemist with stuff you shouldnt have, you are becoming a real threat to the hobby.

Thiocyanate

Harmless

Posts: 7
Registered: 7-8-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

Link to a recent case.

I have been doing a bit of homework since posting yesterday and with the current theme and recent stuff this seems to be a prime example of what happens when you Ignore U.K. law.

I do not know all of the facts but the following link is to the Gov.uk
site and going on my own experience it seems he was given chance after chance. Clearly this man did not help himself.
I have bought from him some years ago and was quite surprised to see he had got himself in such trouble.

I remember looking this up last year and recall he had asked folk on here not to talk about the case as it was ongoing.

Going through the references in this thread got me thinking.

To date, everyone I know who has legitimately applied for an EPP and kept to the rules. has never got any hassle and any visits have been positive, even if a bit troubling at the time.
It also seems that any prosecutions have been under aggravated circumstances.

Anyway here is the link.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/back-garden-chemist-jaile...

NEMO-Chemistry

International Hazard

Posts: 1559
Registered: 29-5-2016
Location: UK
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 5-2-2018 at 19:05

Events happen quickly, not sure if anyone knows of the case going on at the moment? Hopefully someone else will come forward with details.

I havnt been on here long enough to know if the person is/was a member, but there is a case going on in England, its at the P's & D's Stage. I know the person from a non chemistry forum, actually this kind of makes it hard for me, they are not what we would call a chemist, yes they dabbled but the main hobby was actually electronics.

This is the second case in a month, going on the website that it is supposed to throw up cases, dosnt give any detail of either, so the site is slow to record stuff, or dosnt show until conviction?

The other case I dont know much about, its not very exciting so i cant find much on the net,from the little I do know, I think its hydrogen peroxide or nitromethane that was involved. Case thrown out (cps withdrawn) because of an evidence procedure.

No details as such, some he said/ she said but wont bother posting that. Seems someone made so me mistakes and the case was withdrawn, BUT 1 ltr of one or both chemicals involved. No indication of how they got a visit. This is third hand info at best, i will do my best and see what I can find.

Again I thank those who have written letters (scary how you got my address lol) or called me up. I also have people from two other hobbies that use chemicals, and a number of those have come forward with info.

Whats really odd is the most recent FOI request. It shows 3 in Scotland and 4 in England, I know the English number is definitely off. I know two people who think going the business route was a bad idea for me, at the time it was the advice I was given.

Ironically if you apply for a EPP make sure you dont have to apply for change of use to a room in your house, I am having trouble getting good info on this, in Scotland you are in breach of the legal system if you do chemistry in a room, and then dont declare the room as a lab.

It is thread on its own trust me. If people want I will dig up all the info I have, England is slightly different, same rules but so far they dont seem as enforced, maybe the councils are too stretched to bother. I dont really know. I am not far from the England border, so anyone in that area.....get in touch.

What you tell me stays with me, I may use some the info but I wont disclose identities or who has what etc. As for me I have been asked by the police not to disclose what I do, or what chemicals I hold. I see no reason why they would do this.

More to the point I can find no legal reason except maybe some small print. But I have been given no clear reason, so I will soon disclose my company name, what it does and what it has. I suspect that is going to end my career in business, but TBH once all this is finished I am hanging up my test tubes.

I wont be owning any the chemicals on the list, Half the ones I own now will be gone.

That is how it stands today, please be aware all of this is fluid. Its actually been fairly harrowing at times, one other snipit I have.

The expert thing has been confirmed in England and here, these people are counter terrorism experts not chemists!! Some have been police based (i suspect those English forces in larger places that have dedicated officers) and other experts have not been Police, those ones are really scary. Polite and all but hearing someone else describe the look etc on the phone, makes me feel better

.

If anyone gets a visit and one of them turn up, please post here. I can guess the letter not the number.

NEMO-Chemistry

International Hazard

Posts: 1559
Registered: 29-5-2016
Location: UK
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 5-2-2018 at 19:09

posted on 5-2-2018 at 19:53

I have been doing a bit of homework since posting yesterday and with the current theme and recent stuff this seems to be a prime example of what happens when you Ignore U.K. law.

I do not know all of the facts but the following link is to the Gov.uk
site and going on my own experience it seems he was given chance after chance. Clearly this man did not help himself.
I have bought from him some years ago and was quite surprised to see he had got himself in such trouble.

I remember looking this up last year and recall he had asked folk on here not to talk about the case as it was ongoing.

Going through the references in this thread got me thinking.

To date, everyone I know who has legitimately applied for an EPP and kept to the rules. has never got any hassle and any visits have been positive, even if a bit troubling at the time.
It also seems that any prosecutions have been under aggravated circumstances.

Anyway here is the link.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/back-garden-chemist-jaile...

On paper that case is black and white, in reality you need to read the court transcript. The press leave out small but relevant details, Also note in one the threads on here, the guy himself states they foofed up.

If the legal system wasnt biased the cas should have been dropped, the procedure for entry and one or two other rights were trampled over, I think that is what was alluded too in a couple of his posts, in a fair world the case shouldnt have made court.

And that is the bit that should worry you, we dont have many rights, would be nice if those we do have were respected.

Magpie

lab constructor

Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.

This is way different to Scotland, I will come back and detail the system here in a day or so. But here think more along the lines of a small American court where the judge is god.

I would love to be in "a small American court where the judge is god." I would hire the best lawyer around and gleefully watch him disembowel the prosecutor and the judge in an appelate court.

That is exactly what the sheriff and his court is like in Scotland, its a system I have seen alot of, mainly for school and mainly because its almost medieval and fascinating to see in action.

Sounds like the Spanish Inquisition of medieval times. As stated above in an Amercan court they would be reamed a new asshole.

posted on 6-2-2018 at 01:59

I dont care what law you THINK applies or not, dont rely on the written law to save your arse, this is exactly what got Bloggers. He was positive the law was on his side, and actually in many ways the letter of the law is on his side.

Laws are put in writing so that they are clear to everyone. If you don't have a society of laws then heaven help you.

England's system of courts, based on the Roman system, was the foundation of Western Civilization. The Magna Carta (1215) said that even the King had to obey the law.

[Edited on 6-2-2018 by Magpie]

The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem

NEMO-Chemistry

International Hazard

Posts: 1559
Registered: 29-5-2016
Location: UK
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

This is way different to Scotland, I will come back and detail the system here in a day or so. But here think more along the lines of a small American court where the judge is god.

I would love to be in "a small American court where the judge is god." I would hire the best lawyer around and gleefully watch him disembowel the prosecutor and the judge in an appelate court.

That is exactly what the sheriff and his court is like in Scotland, its a system I have seen alot of, mainly for school and mainly because its almost medieval and fascinating to see in action.

Sounds like the Spanish Inquisition of medieval times. As stated above in an Amercan court they would be reamed a new asshole.

posted on 6-2-2018 at 12:33

Magpie your are correct in every respect, my comment on the American legal system and the courts, was directed at UK people. Our perception of your legal system is based mainly on films and TV.

We in the UK are well aware this is not an accurate view of your system, however by using the term the way I did, I was pretty sure 99% of people here would know what I was getting at.

Sorry for the confusion on that point. I wont bother to clarify too much, but here we see the American system portrayed as a guy who is God in that room.

The rest of your comments used to be true, Magna Carter people still think is the base of our legal system. The truth is only 2 sections of the Magna Carter still exist in any form in the UK!

Also I honestly think people have slept for the last 4 years, is NO ONE aware of exactly what the adjustments to the anti terror laws means? Seriously I am asking if people understand why the Lib Dems got in a flap about the amendments that were dropped?

As soon as the coalition ended those were put back into a back door Bill with a single HOL reading.

Its a big read, but go read the Bill on the anti laws, not the GOV website one as it states that isnt the full copy. But go look on the house of parliament site and follow links from there.

Ok this is totally made up, but the actual situation if it arose is completely legal.

I am walking down the street with acetone and Hydrogen peroxide (32%) in a bag. I am of a certain religeon and nationality.

I am stopped and searched, on me they find my phone. on that phone in my browser history is a chem channel, i havnt watched a video on how to make TATP but the channel has it on.

I am whisked off and held under suspicion of X (X is a huge list, just pick one from it) against the risk of terrorism laws.

Mgna Carter and my rights under the court of human rights goes out the window, I can be held under suspicion for 21 days in a police cell, no phone calls to anyone, no one has to be informed, i am not allowed legal advice.

Its is perfectly legal.

So what stops it being used much?
Well at the moment the court of human rights, while it wouldnt stop it happening, if I wasnt charged after being held it would get real messy in the COHR.

Also every 72 hours they have to apply to a magistrates court for continuance, at the moment they would need good reason to hold me or the magistrates would cancel it.

Whats really funny is all the talk on human rights, we diss countries for locking people up for silly things etc. No One says a word about a country that holds people prisoner who have never been inside a court and holds them for 15 years or whatever it is, no trial no nothing.

But thats ok because someone has told us these people are bad people, and despite knowing nothing other than this, we except it as the truth.

Justice is something we had, but couldnt be arsed to keep because it always happens to other people and besides....Ultimately we all believe the right thing will be done in the end.

Wake the fuck up.

Edit

Goes without saying Magpie, only the bit about why i used your court system as an example, applies directly to you.

The rest of the rant is shear frustration at people not understanding what has happened in the last 4 years. It really angers me that people seem to not have noticed what laws have been passed and the effect this now has.

Dont take my word for it, if you still think they only keep meta data go read the Theresa may amendment (when she was home secretary ) and DC was pm. READ the Bill that was amended not the original version.

So how come I know? simples, I had a English hating Human studies teacher, who spent an entire year ranting about the English legal system and how he didnt want it in Scotland.

Thing is he backed up every word with legal documents....

Also I am ranting for another reason, I will explain in a day or so. But I now have my local council on my back over change of use blah blah blah...

Safe to say all Nitric acid at the moment has been diluted

.

[Edited on 6-2-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]

Thiocyanate

Harmless

Posts: 7
Registered: 7-8-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 6-2-2018 at 18:44

While it may be true that some of his rights or certain procedures were not upheld correctly it is indefensible to deal with the authorities the way he did and in doing so he destroyed his own life and hit a major blow to amateurs. Someone of such prominence taking a hit like that is unreal.
I was visited before EPP came in and did not have the luxury of reminder after reminder to get my house in order.

I have been told by a significant number of other amateurs that their Ltd company or sole trader status covers them for everything......It does not, absolutely not.
I have separate storage for work chemicals and that does double up as personal storage and personal usage.
If there is a security issue at home I can default to the work storage. This is stated in black and white on my license.
I have been told that for my work stock of chemicals I do not need a license but if any of them come home then I do, which means they can't come home, period. To add to this the general condition is that I may have to provide invoice evidence that any chemicals I do use for work e.g. the occasional use of Nitric acid for metal treatment or oxalic acid for timber treatment. So far this has not happened but if asked I can provide an invoice.

I am very open with the Home Office and make sure I run a tight ship, I have to. If I think any planned course of action could flag up I let them know.
My chemicals are stored according to the instructions and conditions issued with my License. I also audit periodically and am always revising and planning new improvements to security and safety. I have a new set up planned but need to accumulate the materials first. It all costs money but with scrounging and finding it will be done.

To date I have had no trouble (I know that could change) and getting variations on my license for more goodies has been no trouble for me or anyone else I know. I always state why I want said stuff and demonstrate that I understand any specific risks that may apply to a given substance I've asked for.

The number of licenses issued is way more than any of you think and the official figures you have are wrong.
I know of two others personally within a fifteen mile radius to me and many more outside of that.
At a guess there are probably in the order of between 100 and 200 at the very least in England alone. (my guess)

You say that the police don't want you to mention what chemicals you have or what you do at home.......Good advice if you ask me.
Security is a main concern for them and for good reason. If you were targeted (unlikely) it would probably be an organised information led thing. I have only heard of an unfortunate youtube user who displayed their wonderful lab only to have it stolen.
He had some dangerous stuff as do most of us.
Personally I can't see an individual being targeted for a couple of hundred grams of an oxidising agent but there it is.

Over the last 18 months I have had many conversations with people, visited many and I can tell you if you are sensible, respectful and careful then you are highly unlikely to get any undue grief.
Every case of people getting serious flak I have heard of to date always, always has aggravating factors. Attitude is one, thinking it does not apply to you another. One case I know pre EPP of was down to a malicious call made by an ex partner, this led to a public arrest of the individual at gunpoint. Yes, gunpoint! The case was eventually dropped but not for some time and it put the individual through hell. Choose your company wisely and don't mess with the authorities!

Try to think of your responsibilities before presumed rights and you are making a good start.

So to get to a more positive place in this conversation:
Q: What is life like for me now I have to have a bit of paper and do a few simple things to remain doing demonstrative (important word, note it) chemistry?

A: Great.

Q: Why?

A: Because it has inadvertently led to me being able to get more chemicals easily and when people ask what I do I can wave my license in the air with joy and say no I am not a meth cook or a terrorist!!!
O.k. I don't actually wave it in the air or say that but in conversation I now have confidence and credibility with my neighbours and anyone else who may ask me or be tempted to act with malice.

Q: But don't you have to drive hundreds of miles to pick up your chemicals in person?

A: Yes I do and it is great, I have met loads of great new contacts and am in fact better equipped than ever. Seen some cool set ups too. Also If I cant buy it I can acquire it by synthesis as long as i am not selling it or going over my allowed amounts or concentration thresholds.

Q: So you are happy with the situation then?

A: not entirely really but before I was an unknown quantity, never sure if the door might fly off the hinges at 4.00 am and have to end up looking down the barrel of an MP5.
Now I am a known quantity so when the door does fly off the hinges at 4.00 am I can show the nice people my license while looking down the barrel of an MP5 and offer them a nice cup of tea instead.

Sorry, I couldn't resist that but you get the picture yes?

NEMO-Chemistry

International Hazard

Posts: 1559
Registered: 29-5-2016
Location: UK
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

So far I see nothing bit agreement. The one point I want to make about a EPP, is exactly the point you made about companies.

You cant just get an EPP for no reason, you cant say......Look I like playing with chemicals, i want a uber chem set.

I am aware of some EPP being granted, its somewhere further up the thread. I am also aware that in each case they had a good reason to own or buy.

So in that way its exactly like a company, in this instance you have SIC codes, if your a company your SIC must make sense to own the chemicals.

Lets say I am a dress maker, none of my SIC codes would allow me as a business to own or buy licensed goods, so yes I totally agree with your LTD company point.

I Dont see any difference between our views, I do think there is regional differences. Having also spoken with a few, its a bit of a lottery. Maybe your point about how you present has alot more going for it than people think.

The purpose of this thread was to give a blow by blow account of the process, I wanted to share what my experience was. So far its been very mixed, but for my area i would say its on a par to what I would expect.

I have spoken with people from different areas, if anyone has a license and is in say Bradford area, please drop me a U2U.

I have spoken to alot of different areas, I got to say though that so far none have been in Manchester,Liverpool or Bradford, I am sure they exist. But I would like to know the type of experience it has been.

Thiocyanate

Harmless

Posts: 7
Registered: 7-8-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 9-2-2018 at 09:30

posted on 9-2-2018 at 17:28

You are quite right to say you cannot just apply willy nilly but if you can demonstrate good reason for your application then there is no reason it should fail.
I can think that youth may be a barrier and in some cases that may be justified. If however, said young person has thought carefully about their application, the authorities will note that.
Sometimes a criminal conviction can be a barrier but sometimes it is not. It depends on the offence/s really. Note that at the time of application you MUST declare EVERYTHING.

Illness either physical or mental can also be a barrier but I can tell you that is not always the case. It is all done on an individual basis.

Domestic situation or even your location may be an issue for a raft of reasons but with the correct forethought much can be overcome.

I am not going to give out a list of 'good reasons' or help the wrong people become licensed suffice to say if you really are the right sort of material to be doing all of this stuff then you are likely to get on fine. Be patient, be respectful to authority and don't get clever.

Just remember there are loads of experiments to do without the need for any of this process.

NEMO-Chemistry

International Hazard

Posts: 1559
Registered: 29-5-2016
Location: UK
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

Alot of it is theory, you are obviously aware some counties in England just 'ignore' the law. Brick wall syndrome, this is a general chem forum, the types here dont normally have specific reasons to own. That in itself becomes a barrier, obviously one of my choices in setting up a company was for a little leeway.

But generally, if its just normal hobby chemistry then LTD or even EPP isnt worth it. Just do without the listed stuff, if you cant then in all honesty be prepared for a bit of a ride.

I had hoped to update, but at the moment prudence stops me. Everything is ok, but things have got a little tricky, let get over this hump and I will detail the latest info. If you are stupid enough to replicate this, just for shit and giggles kinda like I did. Then DONT!

It gets very unfunny very quickly, ok i didnt do it for shit and giggles, but looking back i might not have been so willing to find out had I known the full implications.

A couple of words of warning, while a criminal record dosnt always stop a license, in many places if they have reason or time, they will dig deep. if you hold views others might find a bit left or right of center, then clean it up.

If your young like me, then dont mix politics, sexuality or non science related stuff with your hobby. It seems the days of free speech now have a price tag. Currently even though legal to own things like Conc Nitric Acid, i dont currently have any.

I have needed to drop back a bit, this is a precaution more than anything, but I had expected all this to be over by now. Seems in some ways its just starting to get rolling, also assume nothing, silly things like receipts begin to matter.

Thiocyanate

Harmless

Posts: 7
Registered: 7-8-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 10-2-2018 at 13:59

Ok,
To say you feel you should have gone about all this in a different way, well you said it yourself. Some issues you have raised warrant further investigation and leave big questions unaswered, in fact the potential ramifications of some of them are very serious. That is not a matter for discussion here.

The following is meant for the general 'you'.

If you are serious about amateur Chemistry then quickly you will come up against the need for licensable substances. The big problem with not getting the capacity to legally own things like Nitric acid above 3% or the luxury of 35% H2O2 etc is that one cannot practice efficiently. Also the tenptation to get stuff under the radar just to get an experiment done is something we are all subject to.
In recommending that other folk don't bother with lisencing you are in fact compounding the problem. Just because you have taken a very ill advised course of action without seeking any sensible counsel is testament that you are not yet best placed to give advice to anyone.
I think you will gain invaluable insight from this process and inadvertantly will end up able to advise with some credibility, but not just now.
Let me reiterate, if you are patient and prepared to listen then there is a perfectly good and confident route you can walk and hold your head up as I do now, myself and others.

The content of this topic is taxing on the mind to say the least, well it is on mine anyway!
I have had one or two good responses on here and hope very much to get more.

It is your choice to either take a sensible path in all this or a random and difficult one.
If you choose the former option then there is a number of people who will help.
If you choose the latter then you are on your own. Not everyone has the luxury of access to legal advice or the position in life that could cope with a heavy duty tangle with the authorities.
If you are a genuine business start up then the official business route is the one for you.
If you are an amateur that wants to demonstrate science through the medium of chemistry
then EPP is the way to go.
I speak from current and up to date first hand positive experiences and apart from routine stuff have had no harassment from the authorities at all. In fact the exact opposite is the case. (I am not so naive as to think things cant change)
Believe me when I tell you, if I get all this wrong I have so much to loose it is unreal. It is not just me who will suffer.
I will not add any more to this thread for now but will answer u2u.
Thanks for your time.

NEMO-Chemistry

International Hazard

Posts: 1559
Registered: 29-5-2016
Location: UK
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 10-2-2018 at 14:51

posted on 11-2-2018 at 07:01

SERIOUSLY

You have made a huge ERROR!!

Read again please.

I will make this perfectly clear.

I DID NOT SAY DONT GET A LICENSE.

I said if you just want to do chemistry then
DONT GET A LICENSE
but equally DONT GET LICENSED CHEMICALS!!

I am most certainly not advocating you get things that require a license, infact the complete opposite, unless you have NEED, practice chemistry as a hobby do without the conc nitric and conc hydrogen peroxide!!

Some areas of chemistry require you to get a license, most here are general as I stated. Those in energetic s etc are mainly not UK based here.

My role from the start was to explore what general interests routes we had. From that perspective forget the chemistry involved and forget the license, it isnt worth it.

But one last time

I am totally and utterly saying DO NOT BREAK THE LAW.

I am saying most here on this forum can do without the restricted chemicals, many things start to come into play for general chem, certainly with a EPP.

One thing I will add, I have done alot of research, Thio your perspective is an extremely narrow field of chemistry, I would argue this isnt the crowd who need to get EPP's.

Most here for the purpose they use wont get them. The situations are completely different. Your going to disagree and I understand why, as you say this isnt for a open conversation at the moment.

People you might talk too, then yes your likely completely right, from what I know of here they wont get the same treatment as others have.

I honestly dont think you realize hoe much difference the reason makes. People in the UK that NEED a license, are aware of what and why. Those are not the people this is for.

There are places they go for information and to have there needs catered for. But dont confuse others with strictly general chem in mind or to some extent recovery of metals, with other forms of fun.

Things have moved a bit, I am certain its getting apples and oranges from our perspectives. But mainly dont go reading what i say then spin it a different way!

If you want to comment and thats fine, do so but read really carefully, implying I suggested people dont get a license and still kept what they shouldnt, is not helpful at all to me, and is certainly completely opposite to what i said.

I am positive your view is clouded by the things you may do, maybe thats is what sits first in your mind. Those kind of people are fine, they are (surprisingly to me) fine, they seem to get a EPP with not too much trouble (save a few areas), no one your particularly talking too is in your position or the position of some others.

I will at some point contact you again and clear this up. But i stand by what i said for general chemistry, even more so at the moment. I am not the only one in my situation, although both have alot in common.

So we clear now?

You do understand you misread dont you?

Thiocyanate

Harmless

Posts: 7
Registered: 7-8-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 11-2-2018 at 07:51

The big problem with forums is styles of writing and interpretations.

Nowhere in my post did I suggest you are saying that people should experiment illegally. I am simply taking issue with the fact that you could be discouraging people from the EPP application process and thus driving them inadvertently to another mode of operation.
You have not suggested that people should experiment illegally, for the record.

Your own walk through the fire has been pretty devastating and that is due to you deciding a course of action without seeking proper council from those already there. you've kind of done it afterwards and as I said previously you will end up with a unique insights that will prove useful, but at what cost.

At your age I screwed up a lot of things and got burned (Metaphorically) so badly it is unreal. By the age of 20 I had decided to live a straight life and have never looked back. Long time ago now. you will look back and see all this differently in time.
I guarantee it. (were no so far removed from each other we humans!!)

Anyone who does science demonstrations through the medium of chemistry should look at going forward with the EPP application regardless and getting a proportionally sensible number of items at first, the more the merrier!!!! Strength in numbers!!
The possibility of forming a dedicated organisation perhaps?

I do have to disagree with the following: part quote from your post "One thing I will add, I have done alot of research, Thio your perspective is an extremely narrow field of chemistry, I would argue this isnt the crowd who need to get EPP's."

My experience is more in amateur chemistry, Pyrotechnics is a fraction of my interest. The main thrust is 17th 18th 19th century chemistry, all the good stuff!
I am considering some organic chemistry for the future but will give it careful thought first.
Since the changes in the law began in the last few years both pyrotechnics and chemistry have been lumped together by the law.
Admittedly to go to a real depth in Pyro the EPP holder must go down the Explosive license route as well. Again, not as daunting as it sounds but for practical reasons more factors will be considered and those who practice are much fewer in number.

I have spoken to an Explosives Liaison Officer about enquiries from people that would flag up. The most important thing is openness and if anyone seems evasive, even just out of nerves, that gets some interest.

Both Amateur Pyro and Chemist are now intrinsically linked in law and what is true for the pyro is true for the chemist, no ifs or buts.
That is the way the authorities see it and they are who decides who does what.

Again, you are not suggesting that people give the law the finger, you just do not know enough to be advising anyone just yet.

If your situation straightens out fine and you end up with a good working relationship with the authorities and get to tick along nicely as some of us do (with caution) I will be asking you questions as you will have a unique insight and I will be grateful for the lesson.

All the best for now.

woelen

Super Administrator

Posts: 8014
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline

Mood: interested

Reading all this from thiocyanate and NEMO-Chemistry, I have the impression that the two of you are not that far apart, but I can imagine some of the points NEMO mentions may make a difference.

In NL we also have to deal with this. I know of two persons who have an EP-license (most likely there will be more, but I do not know of them), with one of them I have personal contact. One of the persons is using chemistry for art-purposes. He uses nitric acid to add a patina to certain metals (e.g. green patina to copper, black to silver) and makes pictures and sculptures in metal or mixed metal-other materials. The other person uses nitric acid or conc. hydrogen peroxide for recycling precious metals and purifying these. By using concentrated materials he produces much less waste. He does this for hobby-purposes and has arranged everything, not just the EP-licensing, but also adhering to zoning-regulations (storage and waste) and firefighting regulations, because he works with fairly large volumes (multiple liters). Both persons use fairly large volumes (10...20 liters per year or so) and then you definitely need a license.

I myself also have considered getting an EP-license, but my usage is too generic and very small-scale (test tubes, at most tens of ml). I simply cannot specify how much I need on a yearly basis, I also have no need to purchase the chemicals. How can one ask a license for e.g. nitric acid and specify that no purchases need to be made? I only use very small quantities (less than 250 ml per year, probably much less, and I make it myself by means of distillation from H2SO4 and NaNO3). The same is true for KClO3 or NaClO3. I certainly use less than 50 grams per year, so why bother buying it. I make it myself from KCl or NaCl by means of a micro-chlorate cell (I have written a web page about this cell) and I make 30 grams per run or something like that. This also is true for KClO4 or NaClO4. I make these myself from legally available NH4ClO4, I only need gram quantities per year for some fun-demos or some experiments with transition metal complexes, not more. Even fairly conc. H2O2 is not a real issue for me. From legally available 12% H2O2 I can freeze out some water and this allows me to reach 25-ish percent concentrations. Again, at tens of ml scale, not more.

Do I need a license for this? Maybe, I do not know.
Will I ever get a license for this? I don't think so. I don't try.

I think that many people who do general chemistry will run into the same issues. We don't know what experiments we will do in advance. We don't know which chemicals we will want (need?) next year. My experiments are driven by many things. Just finding an interesting read, being triggered by a thread on sciencemadness, discussion with a friend, that kind of things determine what I am doing.

Things also seem to be a bit different when I compare UK-law with NL-law. We have the EP-license (Explosives Precursors), but we do not have a poisons license. I still can use stuff like K2Cr2O7, borax or oxalic acid. Buying these becomes more difficult in NL, but I do not have the impression that this is forbidden by law. These compounds may not be marketed anymore as consumer products for certain hobbies or domestic uses (so not a cleaning product based on borax, or a photographic contrast enhancer, based on CrO3, or a mordant based on K2Cr2O7), but the pure lab-chemicals, sold as is, still can be purchased, albeit with some effort.

My advice would be to make the licensed chemicals yourself, but only in small quantities, to be used when needed. Get yourself some equipment (an investment of EUR 100 will give you a decent second hand NS14 micro-distillation set for distilling a few tens of ml of liquid, an investment of less than EUR 50 will give you access to chlorates from simple table salt or KCl in quantities of tens of grams per batch).

Do not store larger quantities of the licensed chemicals and definitely try not to obtain them illegally from some shady (online) source.

[Edited on 11-2-18 by woelen]

The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at https://woelen.homescience.net

DavidJR

National Hazard

Posts: 908
Registered: 1-1-2018
Location: Scotland
Member Is Offline

Mood: Tired

posted on 13-2-2018 at 05:48

Oddly enough dichromate isn't on the list of stuff you need an EPP licence for, though it is relatively difficult to buy as an individual. I bought some recently, and had to get it from a Russian eBay seller. I have also seen analog photographic suppliers that will refuse to sell potassium dichromate crystals to individuals but will happily sell them a prepackaged acidified dichromate solution as "chromium intensifier" and as bleaches for reversal processing.

Looking at the regulated substances some of the chemicals listed as poisons are admittedly pretty nasty, and have limited uses. I don't particularly mind the level of regulation around these. But for others, it just seems totally disproportionate. As I've mentioned already, oxalic acid is a strange one to regulate. And "phenols" is far, far too broad in my opinion.

I can at least see the public good in regulating explosives precursors, given the situation with attacks over the past couple of years, but I'm don't see the poisons part as solving any real problem. Even then, the fact is that given readily available chemicals it isn't that hard to make many of these explosives precursors. If a terrorist is willing to go to the effort of making their own explosives it isn't hard to believe that they'll happily make their own nitric acid etc first. So the efficacy of this legislation is really questionable.

Thiocyanate

Harmless

Posts: 7
Registered: 7-8-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 14-2-2018 at 05:24

posted on 14-2-2018 at 21:01

Just for your info regarding the revisions to the Poisons act.

A couple of years ago the was credible intelligence to suggest that a chemical/poison attack could have been on the agenda or more likely than before. This was reported on publicly via mainstream media but largely forgotten. This was also mentioned to me personally in the same week as the announcement through a discussion on the subject.

If there was particular intel to suggest a certain type of attack that we don't know about it would mean that the current revisions are outside of our comprehension.

The reasoning in some cases is bound to be flawed and in my own view it is. That said it is something else we/I must deal with now regardless.

Regarding hexavalent Chromium, I think this is purely enviromental thinking and has nothing to do with public safety on a terrorist angle.

[Edited on 14-2-2018 by Thiocyanate]

NEMO-Chemistry

International Hazard

Posts: 1559
Registered: 29-5-2016
Location: UK
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

Ok lets open a can of worms....

The EPP and in particular the poisons act, is not IMHO what people think it is, nor is it solely being the used for its intended purpose.

Lets first establish some understandings.
EPP is a mess of regulation, it spans a number of acts of parliament and also a great deal of secondary legislation. If you dont understand the difference between primary, and secondary legislation then start there if you really want to understand whats going on.

On top of this we are a member of a club, we call it Europe. It has a broad set of rules and regs, we have woven EU law, and different 'advisories' into our own legislation. As a broad general statement, things like treaties get covered by acts, most others bits are pasted into law with secondary tools.

So you have

Poison
Explosives
Chemicals
Environmental
Health and safety at work
And many others, broadly covered by the primary acts that the EPP seeks to address. Some things the Uk as a nation backs strongly, an example of this is Chromium in the Environment. While we are a Island nation of small size, we get ALL drinking water inland. We do zero desalination for public consumption, so we take waterways really seriously in the UK, in most cases at least.

Here where I live, we have a septic tank. Actually we have 3 septic tanks, dating from 130 years old to 2 years old. Each is covered by S.E.P.A rules (Scottish Environmental Protection Agency). I also happen to live in a Agri and forestry area, this is classed as Nitrate sensitive area.

Our tanks have been tested by SEPA, the outflow have to reach very high standards. An example of this was the old tank, it covers two bathrooms in the oldest part of the house. Unknown to us the discharge was wrong, we had a new tank installed to cover guest accommodation two years ago.

Before the new tank went live, we had to have the system certified and tested. it passed but they also tested the other tanks. These had certificates and were as far as we knew ok. One tank failed for Nitrate and general discharge.

While the outflow looked fine, it did infact discharge some raw effluent. All our tanks discharge into the top of the woodland, we are on a large hill with a steady climb. All hell broke loose for three weeks, the first week we had threats of fines in the £10,000s range. Second week this had dropped to <£10,000, third week we paid £500 for a notice and another £350 for a re certification.

So keep that in mind.

Oxalic acid, I have had the police, 'expert' (no fucking idea who this guy is), SEPA and various local authority people crawl over us for the last 2 years. Most of it very recently, I also live in an area that has a huge major artery route going straight through our wood at the bottom, then the other side of the wood across the road, blends in the Galloway forest eventually.

We get a heard of deer cross us twice a years, we seem to be a nursery for a small heard of Deer in the spring and summer. We are on the route to a major ferry port, so roughly 6-8 times a day we get alot of lorries past us. We are on top of the Hill and dont really see or hear them, we sit just over 1/4 mile away from the road up the driveway.

Deer get hit alot, we often find badly injured deer that have managed to get into the bottom paddock. They are in a state, mostly lorry hits as car hits are easy to tell. When a car hits a deer you get police, fire, and ambulance turn up alot. The deer can do alot of damage to a car, but lorries just keep rolling for the ferry port.

So after moving here, we got a firearms license. original purpose was fox's, shotgun for the foofing rabbits. We have several very large dogs now, we dont get much of a fox problem anymore, but we do get deer injured. In Scotland although under 18 I am an adult in law, so I applied for a fire arms license and was granted it.

I have shot two fox's and 22 Deer, all badly hurt. So what has this got to do with Oxalic acid? Well one the police firearms guys, is also the explosive guy and some shit to do with local planning (dont ask me why the police have a planing law officer), we also have the 'expert' he has zero to do with police, and the police guy who does has something to do with EPP.

The police guy has seen the oxalic acid alot, actually he asked about it because he keeps Bees apparently. He assumed we had Bee hives, which we kind of do, kind of because we leave them alone. No one gives a shit about Oxalic acid, not SEPA, not the police, not the 'expert'.

Recently when showing my 'stash', of naughty chems to them, its always brushed aside as a kind of PITA. They dont seem that keen on listing it and adding it to the paper work. I find that real strange, I have also asked bluntly if I didnt have the set up that I do, how much shit would I be in for the Oxalic acid.

Now this applies to me and no one else, do not assume the following is UK wide. I want to make this very very clear, I asked for me in my area with the people who deal with it, what would happen to ME. The reply was pretty much it was laughed off. i have also seen it openly for sale on ebay and other places.

Now FFS dont go buy it if you dont have a EPP, thats stupid. But what I cant get my head around is this. Oxalic acid on the poisons list, no one in my area gives a shit if you have it or not. Nitric acid however is different, they list it and record it and take it seriously.

I asked what would happen if I wasnt set up as I am, I was told I would be reported to the PF, which in England is equiv to the CPS. Then we get to Hydrogen peroxide 32%. A great deal of interest in this, every visit my log is checked and they want to see the stores of it.

I dont actually have much most the time, I buy it in 1 ltr bottles, sometimes 5 ltrs if I need it for cleaning out the hydroponic systems etc. I didnt ask about this one, i didnt have too. They go through my log, they jump on anything and everything they dont like in it.

For example an entry for ~500ml system flush. I was asked what this meant, i explained. Then 5 ltrs lost, very interested in this and I got a really rough ride of questions. Actually it wasnt lost, as in i didnt no where it had gone. It was lost in the sense that I got it, then 3 months later went to use it and nada. It was dead as dodo, i have no idea if I got like that or if somehow it had just 'gone bad'.

I had opened it, but not used it. It was warmer than I would normally keep it, but TBH no idea why it was little more than water, so I wrote in my books LOST. In the software I use for accounts, things like bacterial cultures i buy in, are written off as lost if they die without use. And this is what I did with the peroxide.

I have changed it now, but it was a bitch to alter the accounting software. The software is set up so thing like broken flasks etc, are marked in it as broken. Well I spose you could argue the HP was broken, but didnt seem right to me, then I have a label that says used, well ididnt use it and using it costs me money tax wise.

So i didnt use, used in the description, then i had lost as a label, well that kind of fits. I had 32% HP and now I dont, I have no idea where my oxygen went, so its lost and I dont pay tax on it i claim the tax back. Actually i cant claim it back but thats another story.

My point is, HP in MY area is one of two chemicals they really care about. The other isnt even on a list, acetone. i am also into electronics and used to make my own circuit boards, its actually cheaper now to design, then get them made up now. But 5 years ago it was worth making them.

So i used and had alot of Acetone and IPA, no one cares about the IPA. But the HP and Acetone around here, is of great interest. When they ask for my books (stock books), I normally give them the sheets that cover 4 cabinets. The Acetone isnt in any of these, I actually keep it in the house where I do electronics and repair the broken ebay stuff i buy.

They always ask to see the stock sheet for it, technically I could indeed argue, i could just say..... fuck off without a warrant you got no right to see it. The local cops would care much, they treat me decent most the time, I know them and they know me, i know some of there family as its a tiny place.

But the English 'expert', now this guy dosnt strike me as the kind of guy you want to tell to fuck off. He hasnt said very much, he has asked alot of questions and talked about many things relating to some chemicals, but zero chit chat. Some might sit here reading this and think, well i would just say go fuck yourself.

Some will sit and think, make sure your legal then say nothing to them, I choose to go inside and print off a sheet with it on. It shouldnt be on a sheet, i dont actually use it for business, I use it for a hobby. So in reality it shouldnt be on my books, but it is now and I do log its use.

Yep Acetone not on any list anywhere, but I keep records of what I use and how much.

So back to EPP

What is it actually for? I think its for a number of reasons, depending on who you are dealing with. HSE are interested not in what you have so much, but to me its more like making sure my fucking ladder is the right type, the labels are right and the weights are kept correctly.

I am aware we have a member that is from the HSE, no offense intended at them, but the little interaction I have had with them, has made me think of them a bit like a over protective mother, one with really BAD OCD!!

Nice guys, please dont get me wrong, really helpful people who will give you advice all day long, but really anal OCD types when you get it wrong. The ladder thing is real BTW, i got a chepo ladder with 4 sections, its actually 3 with another one to hook over the roof.

Mine is a bog standard DIY type, but mine is used for my business, it was brought with cash from my business. So its the wrong type!! How I got found out was silly, i was redoing the lab and using it to put a false plaster board roof up inside.

On the day the guy from the HSE came to give me some help and advice, it was up in the corner. he asked what I was using it for and I told him, i didnt expect the lecture nor did I expect him to order me to take it down and get another type.

So in all honesty I have no idea what the purpose of the EPP is, some things on it are blatantly ignored, some things that are not on it are of great interest.

Some who are member here, i have spoken to on the phone. I wont mention them and what was discussed is private and will always be so. Some the info i can pass on if it dosnt identify them, some the info i would really like to pass on, but have been explicitly asked not too.

My network currently stands at 31 people I have spoken with, most have EPP's, some do not. This dosnt not mean they should have EPP's, I am just pointing out i have regular contact now with 31, the contact is specifically to do with EPP or EPP related/ business related matters.

I havnt included any soapers, some of whom should probably get an EPP! It dosnt cover some people from my electronics or RC model mates. Many of those I know from electronics should have EPP's and dont, these are the hardest group to talk to. Try and explain to a guy who is 70's, and done electronics as a professional since Noahs day, that some the shit he has needs a license!

HP is often used to make a potent etchant, many of the people using it havnt a clue sodium chloride is table salt. So explaining why getting the stuff they get, from the places they get it from, falls on deaf ears.

I feel for these people, they dont read anything to do with chemicals normally, they dont really see the big deal with peroxide or Nitric acid. Mention Acetone would be of interest to some people and they think your mad.

A number of people I talk to are into pyro, i wont give you a number but its more than 7. ALL have EPP's and ALL think every home chemist should get one.

If I am honest I think part the reason is pure selfish worry for there own hobby. They are scared shitless more chemicals will be added, and more explosives regulations will be put upon them. Tough, if i am honest pyro is likely the one area I would be most concerned with.

I dont like people making things go bang when I dont expect it, and i will admit, i see home pyro as a threat to everyday chemistry. Infact lets be clear here.

Home Pyro is so regulated and the people involved that i KNOW on some level or other, are the most professional hobby chemist i know, they take every rule and reg extremely seriously. They dot every I and cross every T, without exception all those i am in contact with, are not amateurs as such, but better described as unpaid professionals.

Also if you think logically they are alot like the cooks and kewls, pyro's with a EPP are about as likely to make something for terror, as most the hobby people here with fume hoods and all the gear, are likely to make drugs.
As a group I doubt a single one will ever cause a problem intentionally, like drugs the profile is normally the exact opposite.

Guy buys a condenser and people think hes a drug cook, realty however says, drug cooks wouldnt normally know what a fucking condenser looked like. They know all the chemical terms relating to that molecule of interest. But no zero of the chemistry and have no intention of getting equipment.

But my problem with the pyro's is most, actually all those I have spoken with, would like every home chemist to get a EPP. Regardless if they need it, even people like Mr W, who makes tiny amounts of conc Nitric acid for test tube experiment as and when he needs it.

What actually concerns them is there hobby, they are worried that if non pyros get caught with a 100ml conc Nitric then EPP's might get taken away from everyone. most home pyros get a EPP based on experimental firework research grounds. Its not so much they want to do shows for the local community, they like playing with stuff that goes bang.

Thats cool with me, but many of them hide behind this, WTF is experimental firework research?? What exactly they researching? I ask because so far as I can tell 99.9% of them make the same stuff the same way as everyone else, how is that research?

It isnt, but they wont be honest and apply for a license that says, i like making fireworks, I have a thing about bangs and fireworks. Dont get we wrong, some of this group are like Bert.

Bert is a completely different kettle of fish, for a start he is a pro. Some the guys I speak with are semi pro, most dont manufacture however so the rules are different. They make fireworks and let them off, some keep them for private shows. But few IMHO have a good enough reason to do it for any other reason than its a hobby.

Some have made a business around it, but mostly its a hobby. Most also really dont like businesses like mine, two are really pissed off I can ring a supplier and get stuff sent to my lab. Because most of them have to travel a great distance and show there license in person, when they buy the chems.

Although as I said this is only two of them, most dont seem bothered about the travel bit.

So while it sounds like I am off topic I am not, I am trying to open this up wide, trying to get people to understand that with the EPP you get different groups, because of this we have conflicting interests. I hate to use pyro constantly as an example!! I am really sorry pyro guys, i use you as an example simply because, your group is the best example I can think of that everyone will understand the difference.

Not one of the pyro guys thinks home chemistry should be done without a EPP, it seems they assume everyone uses one the EPP chemicals or might use at some point, or might think of using. Sure they are concerned about your welfare and the trouble you will get in.

BOLLOCKS, main thing they worry about, is the same thing you and I worry about. Lets get totally honest, sure we care about others, but we seem to care more about others, if what they do could affect us and what we like to do. If the government said.......

Look anyone caught without a EPP that should have one, will be prosecuted, BUT it will in no way impact how we view things and further regulations, then sorry, but most of them wouldnt give a shit if you had or needed a EPP.

So back we go to the main point I try and make. IF you use anything on the EPP list then get a license, simple as that. I would put forward one exception, if your biggest crime is Oxalic acid, please talk to YOUR local police.
I am not saying more than that, but yes some have done this, all of them keep bees. None have a EPP, but I dont know if they need a EPP or not.

But If you buy acetone regularly (which isnt listed) and a bit of a mixture of chemicals (none on the EPP list), still go ahead and get a EPP license. The reason is i can promise you that what you buy is interesting to people, getting woken at 3am isnt pleasant and isnt in my limited experience politely done. The door is not lightly knocked, the first words spoken are not " excuse me sir for waking you".

Its actually really surreal, you are completely disorientated, and until they are sure you are completely under control, they are not particularly pleasant to you. Across the pond you might not get this, but those in the UK will. When you suddenly see 4-5 policemen with guns out, and blue lights flashing. Its scary as fuck, especially if you live in a place where you can hear woodworm fart!

it goes abit like this......

Fast asleep having pleasant horny dream. BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG, Shouting, blue and red light dancing over your bedroom wall. Suddenly awake, people talking really loud like your house is on fire. You literally rush to the door, trust me at this point your not 100% on the ball. Your fully awake, but totally confused.

You open the door, people just seem to appear from behind you and speak what seems like really loudly and quickly at you. It seems like 100 questions are fired at you in 5 seconds, its likely 2-3 question in 20-30 seconds.

But dosnt feel like it, the tone is unfriendly. You might see guns, in my own case guns were on shoulders and I am pretty sure being pointed down. I certainly dont remember a gun being pointed at me, but I remember thinking they were making it very obvious guns where in hand.

Please keep in mind my earlier comment, WE are registered FIREARMS keepers, so this could well be why we saw guns openly, it could be they were armed simply because they are aware we have guns on the premise.
I dont know, and by the time i was really back on the ball, i was sat at the table drinking tea and talking nicely with a guy.

Now I have to leave a really big bit out, I have no official reason for the visit, other than information received (thats bollox BTW), i do have a very good idea why. For now it isnt in my interest to talk about this part, as soon as it is, I will update the thread with info i left out. It isnt major, i wasnt a suspect of anything.

I hadnt done anything wrong, but my age is a factor, my location could actually be a reason. But there is another reason, one i find pretty disturbing actually, i doubt its going to apply to 99% people here, but those with a similar demographic as mine and similar age group....

So advice is.

If you honestly dont have or use anything on the list, then dont bother getting a EPP, keep your lab clean and tidy. Try and be professional in how you operate. If you use stuff that isnt on the list but they are interested in, then stop buying it, or get your shit together, seriously consider a EPP. If you got stuff thats on the list.....

My advice is get rid of it, do without it and dont go poking nests. If your thinking about doing chemistry with stuff on the list, think again. I understand that many buy conc Nitric because it saves alot of shipping costs, this is where friends networks are useful.

I might start selling <3% Nitric acid to a couple of people I did the chem club thing with, and a couple of people in another club thing I am involved with. I can buy the concentrated stuff and water it down for them, it would keep costs down and save them having to buy and store cocn nitric when they dont really need it.

It would also save the agro of getting a EPP, for many people getting a EPP is really easy. For pyro types its dead easy to get in some ways. For none pyro types and those not in business or doing 'research' into metals or whatever, then getting a EPP can be a bitch.

A couple of UK places it dont matter what you do, one northern place in particular, getting a EPP for a hobby is NOT going to happen, and I hate to say it but, if i was in charge in that place, you wouldnt get a fucking license off me either for any reason.

I can just imagine the pile of shit on that fan, if someone with a license did something bad it that area!! Honestly common sense should tell you exactly why you aint getting one. I know some groups have tried to push for them in this area, they see it as unfair.

It isnt that they are turned down for the EPP, its the fact you dont get your forms processed, the phones isnt answered etc etc etc. Well for those in that place, sorry about your situation, but what the hell do you expect? You seriously think anyone is going to take a chance there?

Ever heard the saying, Once bitten twice shy? Well just because the dog didnt have a EPP or an interest in chemistry as such, makes no difference. Your still asking to play with things that have already bitten, and bitten hard in that area. If its that big a deal to you then think about those that live there, think about those affected and move house.

Be sensitive, forget whats right or wrong, move if you really cant live without playing with those kinds of chems.

Sorry if it seems a bit a of a ramble, there is zero ramble i promise you. But until those that contact me, also start posting the bits i am missing out, i have to get information out in odd ways.

This wont last long however, I am pretty close to explaining everything I know about, and everything thats happened. DO NOT CONTACT ME and ask me to keep my mouth shut, if it relates to this thread, then sorry but you say it here in the open. If it relates to this thread and its contents then I dont consider it a private conversation any more.

Now two of you are going to think I am directly talking to you, I am not. This is just something that starting from today I have decided to do across the board for good reason. Whats been discussed in the past in private will remain so, but from now on its kept here in day light.

DavidJR

National Hazard

Posts: 908
Registered: 1-1-2018
Location: Scotland
Member Is Offline

Mood: Tired

posted on 15-2-2018 at 10:19

I'm not yet decided about applying for an EPP licence.

I have oxalic acid but as you've mentioned they don't seem to care about that. And the only things I would want on the list are nitric acid and hydrogen peroxide. 12% H₂O₂ is still fairly useful, and I guess I don't strictly need any higher concentration, though it would be more cost effective. 3% HNO₃ on the other hand is quite limiting.

I'd probably apply if it wasn't for the hassle of:

having to find somewhere to buy chemicals in person (?!)
having to get some sort of letter from my GP saying "yep he's a bit crazy but not so that crazy he can't be trusted with nitric acid"
also I can't actually supply any of the required address documents in List B with my name on it due to my current living situation

NEMO-Chemistry

International Hazard

Posts: 1559
Registered: 29-5-2016
Location: UK
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 16-2-2018 at 02:46

posted on 16-2-2018 at 07:34

having to find somewhere to buy chemicals in person (?!)
having to get some sort of letter from my GP saying "yep he's a bit crazy but not so that crazy he can't be trusted with nitric acid"
also I can't actually supply any of the required address documents in List B with my name on it due to my current living situation

If you intend to use hydrogen peroxide above the allowed concentration, then you have no choice but to get a EPP. Before you apply however think about why your applying, you need to have a good reason to have these chemicals.

A good example of how we think, and how it actually works is firearms.In the UK if you want a gun you can apply for a firearms license.

Little known fact, a shotgun license is alot like police bail, its a right to have and not a privilege. In other words unless they can prove good reason to deny you, then you have a very old 'right' to own.

Firearms are a little different, after Hungerford the Act of parliament itself was changed (primary law), you dont have a 'Right' to own a fire arm anymore, but back in the days when they changed it, they were not as restrictive.

So built into the law is a 50/50, unless they can show on the balance of probability, your unfit. Then they have to at least asses you and consider. Secondary law has been heaped on the Act in the last few years, so firearms are extremely restrictive now.

Where it matters in regards to EPP, you can own a gun for fun. blowing shit out of clay disks is a hobby. Creeping up on deer and putting a lump of lead in its heart is considered a sport worthy of a high price.

EPP isnt like that, they have taken the fun factor out. You cant get a EPP for fun. Even fireworks as above, you cant apply simply because you want to see green and red stars in the sky.

You have to be serious about 'research' into how to make better red and green stars (or whatever your bag is). Dont apply and simply paint a broad stroke, be specific as to WHY you need it.

I have tried to get this across from the start, there is NO HOBBY chemistry. You might consider it a hobby, but your the only guy in the process that does

.

Then we get to the actual mechanics of it. You are correct about travel for chemicals, so think about what ID you use. In some small cases you can send off for chemicals or open accounts, but you need to use the same ID as the ID you used for the application.

Dont use your passport for ID if its got 12 months left on it, if your going to reapply for a passport fair enough. If you dont intend to then dont use it, use your driving license.

Can you afford to loose the document? Some places to open an account will want the original sent first.

If like me you live a very long way from normal people, and in a place that even a tap washer needs alot of travel, then your going to struggle.

You need to present the license in person with the ID you USED to apply for the EPP. The pool of chemical companies is shrinking really fast.

Watch the prices at Atom Scientific/ APC Pure (same company), they are going up as the competition drops.

Research your companies as well, APC/Atom is part owned by a guy with a large courier company, dig the history and you find they almost went bust (APC). They owed the courier company alot of money.

So a deal was struck and the director of the courier company is now on the board of APC. Things are picking up a little, but again do some digging at companies house, things are not that black and white at the moment.

APC is almost 100% safe the next 12 months, but they are far from stable in a financial sense. The big advantage with them is the courier side, there is seamless integration.

I dont know how it works for EPP, but as a company we can order from them and the delivery driver has authority to drop. I think with EPP you still have to show up in person.

They have a business to business arm called Atom scientific, same chemicals same place, same everything but higher prices. The sting with Atom is the delivery cost.

Not sure if they sell to the public either, I asked if they had a trade counter and they said no. Which is odd seeing as its the same place you go when you buy from APC. Shame as Atom is cheaper for some stuff.

So decide, can you live without the things that need a license? If you can then do without them. Nitric acid fuming away in a bottle, its great to have in a lab, but do you really need that?

Are you a Woelen? Do you use 100ml every 6 months or use that an hour processing metal waste?

Money wise your not going to save much if any, time wise its going to cost you alot. You will have to travel to pick chems up. How do you fancy driving about with those chems?

Actually its one thing I am really against in the EPP system, it increases the number of viechles on the road carrying things you dont want in an accident.

But again, dont go keeping things that need a license if you dont have one. They seem to have stopped playing with people. In the start they had some flex, i dont think they actually knew much about the law, but they have caught up quickly.

Several court cases have gone down, so you also have a known system thats tested. In other words, you might think you can get away with ordering in chems no problem, but you will get caught.

Try and oprder 10 ltr of 3% nitric acid in 3 months, you will get a visit, likely the polite type of visit, but you will get one.

DavidJR

National Hazard

Posts: 908
Registered: 1-1-2018
Location: Scotland
Member Is Offline

Mood: Tired

To be clear I don't indend to use >12% H₂O₂ without an EPP licence. I'd like to be able to, but I can live without it. There is a few things I'd really like to do using HNO₃ where 3% just isn't going to cut it.

I live in central Scotland and commute into Glasgow, so I'm undoubtedly in a better position re purchasing chemicals in person than you. I'd rather not have to though because it is a hassle, and honestly even the thought of having to go and speak to someone at a chemical company is making me anxious.

Also paper record keeping?! It's 2018. Come on.

ID isn't a problem as I have recently renewed my passport. However for proof of address they require you to provide a recent bank/building society/mortgage statement AND one of: credit card statement, current rental agreement, utility bill. Bank statement I can do, but I don't have a credit card, and I currently live with my parents so I don't have a rental agreement nor any utility bills in my name.

Interesting, I had heard speculation that APC pure was connected to the courier but hadn't had this confirmed. I was also aware of the Atom Scientific brand as the last time I ordered H₂O₂ from APC Pure it came in a bottle with the Atom Scientific logo on it.

NEMO-Chemistry

International Hazard

Posts: 1559
Registered: 29-5-2016
Location: UK
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 16-2-2018 at 09:09

posted on 17-2-2018 at 05:44

I own a company, hence the reason for the thread. Due to my age and interests, forming a research company was the best fit.

I am not fully set up business wise, by this I mean i have taken my time, I havnt used all 4 SIC codes yet.

So what has this got to do with you? I am also in Scotland, if you want to be 100% legit in both technical and moral terms, then fairly soon I would be in a position to help you.

So for the benefit of others who read here, and not just members.

I can help you buy Conc Nitric acid, it is 100% legal. You will need the EPP, i might also be able to help with that. I will contact you once I have found a couple of things out.

I wouldnt be able to do anything until i finalize a couple of things at companies house. But after that...

I get upto the Glasgow area every two months, sometimes a bit more frequent and I also go to Edinburgh. If you got your EPP I could deliver to you at your premises for the first time.

After that I might be able to meet elsewhere, depends on something i am having clarified. Apparently there is a conflict with the EPP and Scottish law!!

Its a tiny mismatch in law, but I need to get it clarified as it could affect some other stuff I am doing. Isnt finished yet, but once complete, my company website can transact online.

If you got s Galaxy note or other phone that can write, OR get yourself a certificated online signature (proper one), you can go paperless.

I dont and wont be doing some the chems on the list, I dont need or want them. I am setting up to supply chems, note I said supply not sell.

These are not general orders and not open publicly. So if you want to have a chat at some point let me know. Please be aware however, yes I am young, not I am not pliable, no i wont budge 1mm off the line.

I got too much to loose to be stupid, but I am 100% up for helping if i can. The more people who are legit the better, but balance that with need.

EDIT

Some parts are done on paper for a reason.....a very good reason, i was a bit surprised myself, but if you find the answer out it kind of makes perfect sense.

[Edited on 16-2-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]

DavidJR

National Hazard

Posts: 908
Registered: 1-1-2018
Location: Scotland
Member Is Offline

Mood: Tired

Yes, I would definitely appreciate any help you may be able to offer.

What's the legal conflict about?

NEMO-Chemistry

International Hazard

Posts: 1559
Registered: 29-5-2016
Location: UK
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 17-2-2018 at 08:06