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phlogiston
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Let's hope the judge can and will take into account that, while he technically broke a law, he has not ever put anyone at danger and has no malicious
intent.
-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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j_sum1
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Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston  | | Let's hope the judge can and will take into account that, while he technically broke a law, he has not ever put anyone at danger and has no malicious
intent. |
Too late. Sentencing has happened.
This is an overreaction from beginning to end. And it hasn't ended yet. After his 8 month jail term he has a "criminal behaviour order" to not
"directly or indirectly store or purchase raw or synthesised chemicals" and also to dispose of any of the remaining chemicals he has. That is such a
vague all-encompassing condition that will be impossible to not violate -- you can't make pancakes under those directives. It just leaves the door
open for a follow-up witch hunt.
So, amongst all of the sad aspects of this case, they are removing from him any possibility of engaging in a hobby he enjoys. I doubt we will ever
see him again at SM.
This is a gross miscarriage of justice.
[edit] Quotation marks added.
Sorry, forgot to include some links.
This one has some video of bloggers in his lab.
http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news...
Here is seems officialdom is unclear whether they are concerned about toxicity or energetics or unlicensed selling.
http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/15385384.Jail_for_chemical_s...
I am very conscious of the fact that I am reading news reports and not court documentation -- and there is nothing to convince me of the veracity of
the news sources. I'd love to know what actually happened and there is no way anyone could find out from the news feed. They can't even state
unambiguously what the actual offense was.
[Edited on 9-7-2017 by j_sum1]
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Rosco Bodine
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He was such a stickler for "technical rules" he would insist be applied to others right here on this board, that the irony is incredible he would be
so particular about rules in a virtual community, while running afoul of rules in the real world where it is a matter of such personal consequence.
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Texium
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| Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1 | After his 8 month jail term he has a "criminal behaviour order" to not "directly or indirectly store or purchase raw or synthesised chemicals" and
also to dispose of any of the remaining chemicals he has. That is such a vague all-encompassing condition that will be impossible to not violate --
you can't make pancakes under those directives. It just leaves the door open for a follow-up witch hunt.
So, amongst all of the sad aspects of this case, they are removing from him any possibility of engaging in a hobby he enjoys. I doubt we will ever
see him again at SM. |
That's preposterous! He'd have to leave the country if he wants to have any hope of
continuing with chemistry...
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JJay
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I see very little glassware in the videos of blogfast's lab. A few beakers, some small Erlenmeyers... plastic graduated cylinders... no jointware....
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j_sum1
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Well he did nearly no chemistry in his shed in the 12 months before the incident. He had other issues to deal with as well.
There is a good chance his glassware was washed and packed up at the time.
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JJay
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That's true, but why wouldn't he wash and pack up his plasticware as well?
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Rosco Bodine
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| Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1 |
I'd love to know more specifics on this incident. Right now we don't even know what substances were involved. |
It was not my intent to cause controversy. The irony about this scenario is just incredible, like some truth stranger than fiction story. The details
are pretty sketchy.
More specifics would be interesting to know, but I have nothing further, except for what IIRC came from an older article was a mention the
purchaser(/s?) were involved in two murders, which doesn't necessarily implicate others, but does make things more serious.
The angle about the purchaser being a Ukrainian or "islamophobe" I know nothing about, but put together with the quote from the mother, there
definitely seems to be some vague nexus with the jihad / counter-jihad unpleasantness afoot in europe and other places around the world.
[Edited on 7/10/2017 by Rosco Bodine]
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NedsHead
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I'd like to see a link to news article regarding the "Islamophobe terrorists" he dealt with
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j_sum1
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This is one of the things that disturbs me the most. At least from the media's point of view, the analysis is superficial to the point of hobby
chemist = terrorist activity = evil = deserved jail time. No attention has been given to providing actual details.
From what I infer of blogfast's statements he knowingly used and sold substances that I presume are relatively recent on the restricted list -- and he
confessed to doing so. I am guessing that, as a chemist. he has a more complete understanding of the actual dangers and range of uses of the
materials in question and felt the laws were unnecessarily rigid and arbitrary (a view many of us share). Therefore he overlooked licensing
requirements. (Although in his media statement he said he "forgot"). I seriously doubt that he had or has any malicious intent. The media omits
details. It makes a difference whether he was selling Al powder or gram quantities of perchloric or nitric acid or whether the offence was kitsets
for kg quantities of TATP. There was nothing visible in his lab that could have justified a bomb squad and evacuation of 40 houses.
It is possible that his jointed glassware had been confiscated prior to the video being taken. It is also possible that he managed to offload some of
his gear to a safer location before the interview.
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JJay
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I read an article somewhere that said a pound of aluminum powder... not sure where....
I don't think he had malicious intent, but how could he possibly have not been aware that he had to meet licensing requirements?? I mean... if you had
something illegal in your lab (hypothetically, of course), wouldn't you know about it? It just doesn't make any sense.
Perhaps he forgot to mail his license application or put it off... but could he have actually gotten a license in that location? How much would it
have cost?
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clearly_not_atara
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| Quote: | | if you had something illegal in your lab (hypothetically, of course), wouldn't you know about it? |
The list of laws is not exactly short... it certainly surprised me that some things were illegal. Maybe he made the powder himself?
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JJay
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That doesn't necessarily make it magically legal... in the U.S., you can manufacture listed substances that are not controlled substances for use in
your own unregistered laboratory for lawful purposes *if* you are a bona fide chemist *and* do so in the course of professional work. So it's actually
lawful to make some phosphorus, for example, if you have a legitimate reason for doing so. But that's an exception given in statutory law and does not
apply generally in most of the world.
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j_sum1
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Can you see if you can dig up that Al powder reference?
Bloggers did a lot of work in times past involving thermites -- some ground-breaking stuff.
It would not surprise me at all if he had some Al powder on hand and chose to onsell it. And I can understand having familiarity with a substance
like that and dismissing some of the regulations as draconian.
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JJay
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I was thinking it was a Free Press article, but I'm not seeing it... I do see an article that suggests that the judge didn't think it was appropriate
that the chemicals were stored in a populated area....
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Loptr
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Was he charged with several things? There is talk of the oxidizers that were made illegal in the UK, and also that he plead guilty to the Poisons Act
of 1972.
He was initially charged with supplying bomb-making equipment to terrorists but later cleared. Appearing in court on Wednesday, Meyers pleaded guilty
to a breach of the Poisons Act 1972.
District Judge Fred Rutherford told the court: 'He's a trained chemist running a company in respect of these chemicals.
'When new legislation came in, the police spoke to him about these substances and advised he should not be in possession of them. He was advised to
obtain a licence on two occasions.'
He will now be sent to Crown Court to be sentenced because the Magistrates' did not have sufficient power to pass a sentence long enough for the
offences.
After the hearing, Detective Chief Superintendent Hutchinson said although the sale may have been legal at the time, Meyers should have been 'more
responsible' about who he was supplying the lethal chemicals to.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4367780/Breaking-Bad...
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"Question everything generally thought to be obvious." - Dieter Rams
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Rosco Bodine
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Here is a results list for articles
http://www.bridlingtonfreepress.co.uk/search?query=Gert+Meye...
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Rosco Bodine
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The entire news reported story seems pretty incomplete and cryptic and fishy, like there is awaiting to be told some "rest of the story" that they
aren't saying, or that much of the story already published is simply manufactured fiction.
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NedsHead
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It reads like typical dramatised media fiction, loyal readers will be calling to have this monster thrown on the next fleet to Australia
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Loptr
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| Quote: Originally posted by NedsHead | | It reads like typical dramatised media fiction, loyal readers will be calling to have this monster thrown on the next fleet to Australia
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If you read the comments of those articles, majority of the people seem to be calling him dangerous, and that he had ulterior motives, etc., etc. The
scene resembles a lynch mob!
"Question everything generally thought to be obvious." - Dieter Rams
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Loptr
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I find it ironic that blogfast25 is given credit in Theodore Gray's book, entitled "Mad Science 2: Experiments You Can Do At Home, But STILL Probably
Shouldn't".
The judge, "He even is credited to a book where the title says you shouldn't do it at home!". 
"Question everything generally thought to be obvious." - Dieter Rams
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MrHomeScientist
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Wow that is all just awful. I feel terrible for Gert. He's been a great influence on me and has helped me with experiments many times. He's
contributed so much to this forum, and if he actually has to destroy all of his chemicals after being released from jail that is the end of his hobby.
We'll lose a great resource to the hobby community. I wish there was something I could do to help. I'm glad Rosco's ramblings haven't gotten the
thread closed at least. He did link the articles originally so I certainly appreciate that.
[Edited on 7-10-2017 by MrHomeScientist]
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Praxichys
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It would be interesting if someone could get the court documents so we could find out what the details are. In the USA they are public record.
Dailymail is notorious for tabloid journalism. I might have tried to get a good word out to the media too but definitely not from them. That article
is borderline defamation. What saddens me most is the comments along the lines of "I'm sorry he is just as bad as them!" when the "terrorist" he sold
"highly dangerous chemicals" to was some random white supremacist who stabbed a guy to death.
However, his sentence is probably for the flagrant disregard of several requests by police to obtain proper licensing for his stock. It's a victory
for terrorism that the licenses are even required, but you still can't just ignore the laws you don't like. He was always very bullheaded in his
political views, and I think this time he picked a fight with wrong people. It will be interesting to see if he comes back. He was an excellent
chemist and I hope this (or the vague "health issue" they mention) doesn't deter his return.
What baffles me is that the police had been there twice before, and suddenly on confiscation day they evacuate 40 people for two days and cordon off
the block, spending $46,000 US to take a couple of bottles out of a shed. Bureaucracy at its finest.
Anyway, if the prison system is anything like the US, he'll probably just spend those 4 months in a minimum security FPC full of other nonviolent
"white collar" offenders. Three square meals a day, a work release program followed by some quality reading time and exercise, regular phone calls and
visitation... inconvenient, sure, but it's not like anyone's going to get shanked.
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clearly_not_atara
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| Quote: Originally posted by JJay | | That doesn't necessarily make it magically legal... in the U.S., you can manufacture listed substances that are not controlled substances for use in
your own unregistered laboratory for lawful purposes *if* you are a bona fide chemist *and* do so in the course of professional work. So it's actually
lawful to make some phosphorus, for example, if you have a legitimate reason for doing so. But that's an exception given in statutory law and does not
apply generally in most of the world. |
What I meant was: if you powder aluminium yourself, you might never find out it's illegal. Although if you had tried to buy it I guess that's kind of
unlikely. I think if you showed a bag of aluminium powder to the average Brit he'd have no idea it was contraband.
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JJay
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Aluminum powder sales (and for that matter, the sales of most pyrotechnic materials) are legal in the U.S., but the ATF has been known to seek court
orders to stop people from selling pyrotechnics materials in a manner that they consider irresponsible despite the absence of any clear law against
it. That is why several of the popular U.S.-based pyro suppliers have quantity restrictions.
It's legal for me to have large quantities of aluminum powder, although I imagine my landlord wouldn't like it, and it could raise insurance rates
(and there are fire codes that have to be met, etc.). But it's not something I keep sitting around in large quantities... I think I have four grams of
it in a bag around here somewhere (which is lawful and shouldn't upset anyone). But any American can buy 25 kg of smokeless powder over the counter at
most department stores, so fuss over aluminum powder is really quite silly.
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