| Pages:
1
2 |
MineMan
International Hazard
Posts: 1012
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Ammonium Hydroxide
Hello All,
I am looking for 26-29% Ammonium Hydroxide.
I am quite surprised by how expensive it is, I bought a liter from ebay for about $20.
I know this chemical is used in industry extensively, and in vast quantities, so I am surprised at the difficulty of acquisition.
It does not need to be lab grade.
After another search this is the cheapest I can find.. but they want $25 for shipping: http://www.hvchemical.com/ammonium-hydroxide-28-1-gal-aqua-a...
I live in a town of over a million in the States, are there any types of stores you think I would have luck with?
Or other websites?
|
|
|
NedsHead
Hazard to Others
Posts: 409
Registered: 9-12-2014
Location: South Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
have you considered making it? it's pretty easy to synthesize from an ammonia salt and sodium hydroxide, my preferred method is using urea and sodium
hydroxide
|
|
|
ave369
Eastern European Lady of Mad Science
Posts: 596
Registered: 8-7-2015
Location: No Location
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Another method is making it from OTC ammonia by concentrating it. You pour weak OTC ammonia in a large flask, and connect it by tube to a small
funnel-and-beaker trap. Then you heat the weak ammonia until gas starts to emerge; it goes into the trap and dissolves. Proceed until ammonia no
longer dissolves in the trap.
Smells like ammonia....
|
|
|
Texium
Administrator
Posts: 4618
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
Member Is Offline
Mood: PhD candidate!
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by NedsHead  | | have you considered making it? it's pretty easy to synthesize from an ammonia salt and sodium hydroxide, my preferred method is using urea and sodium
hydroxide |
That's an especially good method if you can start with 10% hardware store ammonia rather than
bubbling the gas into plain water.
|
|
|
Dr.Bob
International Hazard
Posts: 2748
Registered: 26-1-2011
Location: USA - NC
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If you can say what town/state it is, you might find more luck. Many people know good places for chemicals, but don't want to post them publicly,
but if they know roughly where you are, then they can u2u you or offer you some. But shipping it is a pain, which is most of the cost, easier and
cheaper to just find a local source.
|
|
|
MineMan
International Hazard
Posts: 1012
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I don't have the lab equipment to make it myself, and do not have the storage space to store the equipment, but thank you.
Buying it is the only option.
I live in southern AZ
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
The reason the shipping costs are so high is because you're paying hazmat fees. That's typically about $25 tacked onto whatever the normal price is.
As far as getting it locally, jewelry supply stores carry it; at least the one near me does.
| Quote: | | have you considered making it? it's pretty easy to synthesize from an ammonia salt and sodium hydroxide, my preferred method is using urea and sodium
hydroxide |
You actually don't even need the sodium hydroxide, just heat up urea until it starts off-gassing ammonia, at which point it'll turn into cyanuric
acid. You really only need the sodium hydroxide (or sodium carbonate/bicarbonate if you want to cut costs) in order to make the cyanuric acid more
soluble in water, since it's a bitch to rinse out of a container otherwise.
|
|
|
cyanureeves
National Hazard
Posts: 744
Registered: 29-8-2010
Location: Mars
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
you dont need lab equipment either.i have made it with deer hooves and horns using a spray paint can and a pc. of wood with a hole as a stopper.you
will need some copper tubing to condense the ammonia vapor though.i ordered from dudadiesel but the ammonia came almost at the boiling point.good
thing the bottle didnt burst but it was about to as the bottom was rounded.
[Edited on 10-15-2016 by cyanureeves]
|
|
|
NedsHead
Hazard to Others
Posts: 409
Registered: 9-12-2014
Location: South Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I don't use any special lab gear to make ammonia either, just a glass bottle with a hole drilled in the cap to attach a tube and a heat source https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFVPx4L-DG4
|
|
|
cyanureeves
National Hazard
Posts: 744
Registered: 29-8-2010
Location: Mars
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
great set up and great video.
|
|
|
Morgan
International Hazard
Posts: 1705
Registered: 28-12-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Not that it would be that much of a help, but if you bubbled the gas into a tall narrow meter long quartz tube say or column filled with chilled water
maybe even less of the ammonia gas would be lost as or if it reached the surface. The air stone adds more surface area to the bubbles too of course.
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Morgan | | Not that it would be that much of a help, but if you bubbled the gas into a tall narrow meter long quartz tube say or column filled with chilled water
maybe even less of the ammonia gas would be lost as or if it reached the surface. The air stone adds more surface area to the bubbles too of course.
|
Ammonia has a ridiculously high affinity for water. In fact, when they fertilize corn, they often don't even bother to convert the ammonia into a
form that isn't a gas at STP. They just squirt anhydrous ammonia, straight from the Haber-Bosch process, directly into the soil, and the vast
majority of it stays there, due to the moisture in the soil.
Of course, once the NH4OH concentration gets higher, you'd need to make sure you're losing as little as possible in the vapors, in which case your
best bet is probably to stick 10% hardware-store ammonia in the freezer, where it will not actually freeze due to the lower freezing point of the
mixture. (This probably holds true for 5% ammonia too, although I have not tested it.) That way, you start off at 5-10% instead of zero, and your
solution is a lot colder than water could get.
Also, IIRC, ammonia dissolving in water is endothermic, so you might not even need an outside cooling source.
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4355
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
It's aqueous ammonia. Ammonium hydroxide is a misnomer that should have been thrown out with the utterly useless Arrhenius definition of an acid base
reaction.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Azane + water and Bob's your ammonia-smelling uncle.
The only difference between ammonia and ammonium hydroxide is that ammonia is a gas and ammonium hydroxide is what you get if you dissolve that gas in
water, which is how it's generally bought anyway.
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4355
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by aga | | The only difference between ammonia and ammonium hydroxide is that ammonia is a gas and ammonium hydroxide is what you get if you dissolve that gas in
water. |
No, if you dissolve ammonia in water, it's still ammonia. Less than 5% of it actually ionizes to give ammonium ions and hydroxide ions.
The nomenclature of "ammonium hydroxide" may be as common as dirt, but it's still wrong.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
Morgan
International Hazard
Posts: 1705
Registered: 28-12-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
On the affinity of ammonia gas for water I remember reading a demonstration where an upside down flask full of NH3 can be cracked/shattered when
placed open end in a vessel of water, the gas dissolving that quickly, a somewhat faster reaction than the ammonia fountain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z4liRirdv0
[Edited on 15-10-2016 by Morgan]
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Huh ?
Ammonia dissolves up to 47 w% in ice cold water.
Is that not the same as making Ions ?
Is dissolution not the same as ion-making ?
(well, it wasn't for the monasteries i guess)
I can feel an 'aga is a dumfuk' moment about to happen (again).
|
|
|
Morgan
International Hazard
Posts: 1705
Registered: 28-12-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Since it was mentioned ammonia injection on the farm, this other use came to mind.
"In the United States, the additive is not for direct consumer sale. Lean finely textured beef can constitute up to 15 percent of ground beef without
additional labeling, and it can be added to other meat products such as beef-based processed meats.[14] Prior to the invention of the disinfection
process, beef scraps could not be processed to reduce or remove the fat, bone fragments or other non-beef components and could be sold for other uses
only, such as pet food or as an ingredient for cooking oil.[4]"
"Because of ammonium hydroxide use in its processing, the lean finely textured beef by BPI is not permitted in Canada.[89] Health Canada stated that:
"Ammonia is not permitted in Canada to be used in ground beef or meats during their production" and may not be imported, as the Canadian Food and
Drugs Act requires that imported meat products meet the same standards and requirements as domestic meat.[89][90] Canada does allow Cargill's citric
acid-produced Finely Textured Meat (FTM) to be "used in the preparation of ground meat" and "identified as ground meat" under certain conditions.[91]"
"Lean finely textured beef and Finely Textured Meat is banned for human consumption in the European Union (EU).[92][a] Meat processed using the Baader
process is allowed in the EU.[94] The Baader process involves the use of a machine manufactured by the Baader Company of Germany that mechanically
separates meat residue from bones of animals using low pressure water.[94] This meat is referred to as "desinewed meat", and the Baader process
involves the formation of the final product into a red meat paste.[94] It is a similar process to mechanically separated meat, which forces "fragments
of meat from animal bones using high pressure water".[94]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_slime
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/03/70-percent-of-...
[Edited on 15-10-2016 by Morgan]
|
|
|
zwt
Hazard to Self
Posts: 84
Registered: 1-8-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
What an ingenious suggestion! Since very little ammonia is actually consumed in the disinfection process, and every minute particle of meat is
recovered, the waste water from pink slime plants may, in fact, be a free source of the concentrated ammonia solution the OP is looking for.
|
|
|
ave369
Eastern European Lady of Mad Science
Posts: 596
Registered: 8-7-2015
Location: No Location
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Nope, there's a form of tautomerism: the hydrate NH3*H2O and the ionic species NH4+OH- coexist and turn into each other, with the former being a major
tautomer under most concentrations, and the latter a minor one.
Nevertheless, we don't call aqueous formaldehyde methanediol, despite that the methanediol tautomer CH2(OH)2 is a major one in aqueous solutuions of
CH2O. We call it after the minor tautomer, CH2O*H2O. Why not use the same logic with ammonium hydroxide?
[Edited on 15-10-2016 by ave369]
[Edited on 15-10-2016 by ave369]
Smells like ammonia....
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4355
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by aga |
Huh ?
Ammonia dissolves up to 47 w% in ice cold water.
Is that not the same as making Ions ? |
No. Dissolving simply means it goes into solution. Making ions is reacting with water to give ammonium ions and hydroxide ions. The reaction of
NH3(aq) + H2O(l) = NH4(+)(aq) + OH(-))aq) is an equilibrium reaction that lies well to the left (lots of NH3, very little NH4+).
This is similar to the ionization of acetic acid in water:
HC2H3O2(aq) + H2O(l) = H3O(+) + C2H3O2(-)(aq) (in fact they have the same equilibrium constant). Acetic acid is infinitely soluble in water, but very
little of it actually ionizes, which is why acetic acid isn't as corrosive as hydrochloric acid.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
MineMan
International Hazard
Posts: 1012
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Ok, How are you making your ammonia vapor though?
I take it the flask is filled up with water or hardware store 10% Ammonium hydroxide to which you bubble it through...
How would you know when your at the max (30%)?
I don't know about this, no matter how well ventilated ( outside with a fan) my experiments are I still smell tons of ammonia and have to have
frequent breaks to prevent light headedness. I would think it would be terrible making it because of this.
|
|
|
NedsHead
Hazard to Others
Posts: 409
Registered: 9-12-2014
Location: South Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'm making the ammonia gas by heating the bottle containing urea, sodium hydroxide and a few mls of water.
the beaker is just chilled water.
I generally run the reaction until the ammonia gas no longer appears to be taken up by the water, it's not exact, but it's good enough for my needs.
as Morgan mentioned, if you use a tall, narrow vessel of chilled water to bubble the ammonia into you shouldn't get much gas escaping and when you do
begin to smell ammonia it's probably time to shut things down
|
|
|
Maroboduus
Hazard to Others
Posts: 257
Registered: 14-9-2016
Location: 26 Ancho Street
Member Is Offline
Mood: vacant
|
|
Try bubbling it through 2 flasks. The first one will absorb most of the ammonia in getting to the point where ammonia passes through. That means the
second one will get much less and absorb it pretty well. Could you use any ammonia salts? When you do your runs put different acids in the second
bottle and make ammonium sulphate, phosphate, hydrochloride, acetate. The acid will do a great job of scrubbing the air, and if you don't need the
salts you can regenerate ammonia from them with more lye
|
|
|
NedsHead
Hazard to Others
Posts: 409
Registered: 9-12-2014
Location: South Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
that's a good idea, you could save the second solution of weak ammonia and use it as the primary for the next run
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
