InFormation
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Amateur Chemistry in Australia
Hi everyone.
After browsing the forums for a few weeks, I've got to say, I really like what you're doing here, and what you all stand for. It's unfortunate the
problems that things like this face - all the legitimate reasons for furthering people's enjoyments and hobbies impeded by the people that want to
abuse those things. Chemistry is, as I've poked around here, now apparent to me as another of these.
This is a problem, since I want to start amateur chemistry myself, since I've really enjoyed chemistry at school the last few years, and want to start
tinkering myself. The thing that worries me most is what I've read here particularly about people in Australia having problems buying glassware and
getting a visit from the police randomly. This isn't something I feel is absolutely wanted, as taking up a hobby in my view isn't synonymous with
putting the family through random police checks to make sure everything is in order.
So with all this in mind, are there any Aussies here / people familiar with Aussie law that would be willing to tell me the laws and such of this?
Believe me, I've already done thorough forum and Google searches to try and find info on the legalities (I'm talking about Victoria, Australia by the
way) and illegalities of all this, but everything is very vague and hard to find. Are there any laws or general rules on what glassware is acceptable
/ not to posses (is it legal at all to own anything more than beakers or test tubes?), a government issued list of illegal / controlled reagents, etc?
Don't take me for naive, I just like to be concrete solid on the facts before I pursue something I don't have the whole picture of.
Thanks, and I hope to learn a lot (and contribute more in time  ).
- InFormation
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Bismuth
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The laws in Australia regarding amateur chemistry are quite ambiguous. While I wish I knew of a resource which just came straight out in plain English
on what you can/can't do, I'm doubtful on its actual existence.
Your best bet is to take a look at all of the controlled precursors in the United States and to not have ANY of them. While some of the Type-II ones
are a little ridiculous, I would personally store these in a different area to your lab just so they can't have a go at you. Even if you have acetone,
distilled water and all that jazz, you will still be conspicuous. If you don't have any of the drug precursors, you're pretty much fine.
I mean, if you have an inordinate amount of explosive precursors or whatever, you will still get in trouble. But more often than not, they don't
really care all too much if you engage in amateur pyrotechnics or like to delve into that area of chemistry (in a sensible level that is). Stay away
from obvious precursors (to them that is) for explosives: glycerine, hexamine and others especially if you have nitric acid in the lab too. I would
just keep them separate somewhere if you needed them.
Other things to do is to make sure you label every single chemical you own. Having the MSDS on each chemical is advisable too. They do not like
unlabelled anonymous chemicals at all and they generally will confiscate it. Make sure the place is neat, organized and is tidy. Have a fire
extinguisher or two and make sure you participate in the hobby very professionally. In terms of glassware, well, it's hard to say what is monitored
and what isn't. Distillation apparatus may very well be monitored here in Australia. Buying some of it may result in someone coming over, but as long
as you have nothing to 'hide', it'll be fine. Beakers, flasks, test tubes and all that are rather safe to own and you won't suffer any legal
repercussions for having these.
Hope that helps.
[Edited on 5-12-2010 by Bismuth]
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InFormation
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Thanks mate! That helps a lot, and sheds a lot of worry. From what I had read, I was particularly worried that somehow (in the wonderful spirit of
Australian law) that owning an Erlenmeyer or something could be vaguely construed as conspiracy to commit crime or something silly.
Though I do have one more question now that I think about it: reading material. Are chemistry textbooks with more advanced examples (permanganates and
other examples, some of which fall on List II) a liability? The last thing I want is being told that, since I own a book on theory and it includes
example x, I must have intended to manufacture x.
[Edited on 5-12-2010 by InFormation]
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Bismuth
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To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing in Australia that can be really considered to be prohibited literature. Even if you go ordering PiHKAL,
explosive books and the like; you shouldn't under the law be prosecuted for it. However, ordering these in probably could get a spot next to your name
and you might be on a watch list.
Now, these are very specific books that are solely discussing activities that in Victoria, are illegal. From past people I know, no one I have ever
encountered has ever gotten in trouble for ordering these into Australia. A chemistry textbook with some List II precursor production? Don't worry
about it.
They won't go ripping your house apart unless they seriously have a probable reason to do so (which, from what I gathered, would never arise with your
intentions).
I would be storing my books in a different area to the lab anyway (you don't want books around there) so I doubt if you did have some 'strange'
literature, they would go searching away in the house frantically looking at every book you own. They're not going to browse through every single
chapter in a text book to find some weak piece of evidence. So don't have ANY fears about having a chemistry book that discusses type II precursors.
Australia isn't as bad as people make out to be. While there are crap laws, most of the time they don't care as long as it's not drugs. Really, it all
comes down to drugs. I've known people who have explicitly told law enforcement they are experimenting with homemade rocketry, fireworks or whatever
and they said they couldn't give a rat's ass as long as they didn't piss any neighbors off/destroy anything. Take a look at Alan Yate's website and
all those other Australians. If they cared so much about amateur experimentation, they would crack down on some very easy cases. But they don't as
long as it seems safe and it's not funding any black market. Try stay away from chemicals involved with that, and you'll be fine.
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InFormation
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Thanks again, Bismuth, you've been very helpful. Maybe I can get some glassware now in time for Christmas .
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Ephoton
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glass is not a prob so long as you dont buy over 5L.
we are allowed to have essential oil sets up to this volume.
chems that is different.
some are ok others not so.
I think you will have less trouble with customs if you stick to the glass sizes under
5L than you will with local companies (though I have ordered from locals before)
I think this is becouse the police like to use the local glass blowers as a way
to find meth cooks.
its pritty hard to do this if the glass is comming from OS.
best of luck mate dont let the stink put you off.
e3500 console login: root
bash-2.05#
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bquirky
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Ive orderd glassware from local supplyers and picked up general reagents from Sigma chemicals over the counter no problems at all.
the only way that i can see you having an issue is if you have a dodgey housemate that gets into unrelated trouble regarding drugs.
BUT if you want to setup some SERIOUS kit. register a sole trader bissness name and get an ABN it only costs a hundred bucks and makes you a
ligitiment blue sky research startup then you can do whatever you want. and have no extra tax or reporting obigations untill you earn a profit. (you
might evan get some deductions for costs if you can be botherd and can demonstrate an asumption of turning a profit over the next 3 (i think, prehaps
5) years ).
I was doing a bunch of radio electronics and computer stuff a while ago got a name and ABN used it for a few years. made a few hundred bucks randomly.
Declared it. and deregistered when i lost intrest. its not a big deal.
Everything in our society is setup to suport comercal operations. Gota make the system work for you
But just generally I think you can relax.
just dont poison next door with noxious fumes
Regards
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InFormation
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You both make some good points, I'll keep that in mind. I likely don't need anything over 250mL to start with for now anyway, so size isn't a major
concern. Maybe an ABN would be a viable option in a couple of years if I find I'm enjoying it more, and want to get some better equipment.
Local companies wouldn't be a problem if I said I was getting it for school, would they? (Not half false - I'd like to take this up to get ahead of
the school's chemistry course so I can ace it, with the side bonus that I'd enjoy it as a hobby). Reason being, glassware from overseas looks fairly
expensive by comparison.
Oh, and no dodgy housemates  .
[Edited on 6-12-2010 by InFormation]
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frobber777
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I live in Perth, Western Australia and was just about to order a whole bunch of equipment from Laboy glass on eBAY.
A few round bottom flasks (1L, 500ml), 3 condensers (Allihn, Vigreux & Liebig) and a Soxhlet extractor.
Laboy glass are many times cheaper that buying from local Perth suppliers.
I really don't want to be questioned by the police, not that I have anything to hide. Just don't want the embarrassment of them turning up on my
door.
Any glassware you know is on the "watch list" in Australia? Or tips on how to minimise your changes of been questioned?
Thanks.
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frobber777
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Okay, I've done some research and partially answered my own question.
From the Australia Code of Practice for Supply Diversion into Illicit Drug Manufacture
These may require "end user declartions":
Round bottom reaction flask (capacity 500ml or greater)
Condenser (joint size B19 or greater)
Splash Heads and Distillation Heads
Heating mantles (capacity 500ml or greater)
Rotary Evaporators
These may be used as a "guide for illicit drug manufacture":
Buchner funnels
Buchner flasks
Magnetic Stirrer/Hotplates
Separating funnels
Chemical balances
Quickfit adapters
Pretty draconian is you ask me, as this is all basic equipment. The 500ml flask size is very small. Not the maximum of 5L, which is the legal
maximum for distillation.
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bquirky
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frobber777
seriously.. dont worry about it..
I actuly just brought a bunch of basic labstuff back from the US in my suitcase for no real reson other than i visited a dedicated chemistry shop in
san jose and was not leaving empty handed 
all those laws are used for pinning stuff to people the cops are after anyway (a state of afairs i dont agree with but thats the way things are) so
unless you have a dodgey housemate (or you are a bit dodgey) with a stash at your house that the cops go hunting for.
then no one will give a shit.
im from Perth allso and if you like i am happy to have them delivered to myself and I can drop them off for you.
regards.
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frobber777
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Hey bquirky,
Thanks for the offer - think I'll just order and take the risk. Nothing about me would raise any red flags if they checked.
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trezza
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Plenty of reassurement there...
I just found this on a legal website.
| Quote: |
What the police must prove
In order for the police to prove their case at Court, they must prove each of the following matters beyond a reasonable doubt.
1. The accused had possession of a precursor.
2. The precursor was intended by the person for use in the manufacture or production, by that person or another person, of a prohibited
drug.
It will be necessary for the Police in every offence to prove that the accused was the person who committed the offence.
http://www.armstronglegal.com.au/web/page/possession_of_prec...
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SO what that tells me is that I am allowed to have in my possession ANY chemical which ISN'T on their list of precursors.
If you buy lots of suspicious chemicals, lets just say pentaerythritol, nitric acid and sulphuric acid all in one go, they chemical supplier may
become suspicious and you could get a visit from the police, though they can't do anything if you don't actually have an illegal substances in your
possession, they'd need to prove that you intended to make explosives with it.
[Edited on 4-3-2011 by trezza]
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frobber777
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An update.
My order from laboy glass has arrived and I've had no issues with the police.
The package does not appear to have been opened or tampered with in any way.
The order contained many items on the may require end user declaration list:
2 x 1000ml single necked RBF, 500 ml 2 necked and 3 necked RBF.
2 x Condensers.
1 x Separating funnel.
Guess I was worrying over nothing.
Thanks for putting my mind at rest
PS. I'm very happy with the quality of glassware from laboy and their very good customer service.
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mewrox99
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Ha Australia isn't as bad as I thought.
No-one in NZ will sell me distill equipment or RBFs without making me fill out a form which goes to the NZ police. Joy!
Hell Labwarehouse got a cop at my door for ordering flasks and beakers. Luckily my mum didn't show him the lab and he didn't seem to care
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Bot0nist
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Quote: Originally posted by mewrox99  | Ha Australia isn't as bad as I thought.
No-one in NZ will sell me distill equipment or RBFs without making me fill out a form which goes to the NZ police. Joy!
Hell Labwarehouse got a cop at my door for ordering flasks and beakers. Luckily my mum didn't show him the lab and he didn't seem to care
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What nerve. An inspection for glassware??? Fascists!
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mewrox99
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They never actually inspected. A single community constable who knew me from a previous chemistry related incident involving flash powder asked to
take a look and was declined. After that I never heard anything from anyone from the police
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tetrahedron
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here it is in all it's wisdom: http://scienceindustry.com.au/storage/documents/Code.pdf
| Quote: | | End User Declaration Only Required When Sold to Non-Account Customers: ammonium formate, ... chromium trioxide, ... formaldehyde, ... magnesium, ...
nitromethane, palladium, phenylalanine, ... |
| Quote: | | No Reporting Required. This list should be used as guide to alert staff that these products may be used in illicit drug manufacture: acetic acid, ...
sodium acetate, sodium hydroxide, ... |
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1Mother
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In Western Australia be careful. I had a heap of Glassware and Chems in a Lab I had set up. I did not nor did I intend to Make drugs. Could I?
Probably if I wanted to but I'm not interested in that stuff. Anyway I was raided by 12 cops and two Chemists fro 14 Hours. They took heaps of my
gear and Chems. they would ask what are you doing with it? To which I told them Science, and I found it stimulating and interesting. Now they raided
me because I was buying stuff on Ebay. I knew I could not have high capacity stuff but was not aware at the time on the b19 neck size. Anyway I was
charged with heaps of stuff. I had to get a Criminal Lawyer just to have the best chance. The outcome was $3500! I'm pretty sure they Knew I wasn't
doing any bad stuff with my kit within 10 minutes of entering my house but they of course were trying to Justify their exsistance. So ended up
costing a Single Dad with 3 kids at home almost everything he had. I don't have a record at all. Now the funny thing is they gave me back (what they
called) a Splash head (which is supposed to be illegal), but it was just a right angle connector. So be aware that the people running the Drug squad
in Western Australia have NO IDEA what they are doing. They have their own agenda of what I don't know. They are Cocky very rude and very
Unprofessional in carying out their duties. And I have no Idea why they won't give my Chems back as the Chem Lab report said I was not doing anything
Illegal. They said some of the Chems were dodgy. Not only do I know they are wrong but they were all labeled and kept safe with and envelope close
by with ALL of the MSDS sheets there. If anybody knows how I can get my Chems back I would appreciate it. Don't care too much about the Glassware
they took as I put that down as Lesson learnt.
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1Mother
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Frobber777 If any of the stuff you bought b19 or larger they WILL pay you a visit. Stand-by. I had it for months before they turned up.
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