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hodges
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New Easy Way to Phosphorous!
When one thinks of making phosphorous, high temperature furnaces and dangerous condensation procedures come to mind. Indeed, the way phosphorous has
been prepared historically is to heat phosphates to a high temperature with carbon in a coal furnace. However, at the time phosphorous was first
discovered, the majority of chemicals that are today available to the mad scientist were not available. I thought about this situation, and what
chemicals are available to us today. Sure enough, I was able to come up with a new way to produce phosphorous that requires no high temperatures or
elaborate condensation procedures.
One of the most chemically active reducing agents available is aluminum. We don't think much about aluminum, because we see it everywhere. It
is in our cars, our lawn furniture, and even in our cooking (aluminum foil and aluminum pie plates). The reason aluminum does not generally show its
reactivity is because it forms a thin coating of aluminum oxide (Al2O3) on the surface. This thin oxide coating renders the aluminum metal inert.
Yet given the right conditions, aluminum is quite active (as anyone who has made thermite before knows). While thermite involves very high
temperatures, this is not the only way to get aluminum to react as a strong reducing agent. If you've ever used Drano you realize that aluminum,
in alkaline solution, is a strong reducing agent at room temperature. Drano consists of a mixture of sodium hydroxide, sodium nitrate, and aluminum.
When water is added to this mixture, aluminum reduces the nitrate ion to ammonia as follows:
5NaOH + 3NaNO3 + 8Al + 18H2O --> 8NaAl(OH)4 + 3NH3
I got the idea that aluminum might reduce phosphates, much as it reduces nitrates. Experiment verified this to be correct. The apparent reaction is
(using sodium phosphate as an example):
2NaOH + 2Na3PO4 + 8Al + 22H2O --> 8NaAl(OH)4 + 7H2 + 2P
To perform this reaction, add sodium hydroxide and a phosphate to water. Once the phosphate has dissolved, add small balls of aluminum foil. After
the reaction is complete, the sodium aluminate solution is decanted, and the precipitated phosphorous is washed several times with water.
A couple of precautions are in order here. First, be careful to avoid excess sodium hydroxide, as this will react with the phosphorous to produce
phosphine gas (PH3), which is both flamable and poisonous. The first time I tried this reaction, the escaping gas caught fire with a "pop"
several times, and the phosphorous yield was very small. I was able to remedy the problem by using less sodium hydroxide, although this resulted in
not all of the aluminum being used up and a phosphorous yield that was less than theoretical. I found that keeping the reaction cool with an ice
bath, and removing the phosphorous as soon as hydrogen production has ceased provides a better yield. Either way, the reaction should be done
outside, and care should be taken to avoid inhaling the vapors (which have a strong garlic odor). A second precaution concerns the phosphorous
itself. As it is a very fine precipitate, some of it tends to float on the water after it is washed. At the very least, this could result in harmful
phosphorous vapor being released into the air. In the worst case, the phosphorous could conceivably ignite if enough of it floated on the surface. I
recommed that the phosphorous in water be heated lightly in order to melt the phosphorous and fuse it into one solid chunk which will no longer tend
to float.
Although phosphates are not too hard to find, there are other alternatives besides buying them. Recall that urine contains phosphates; indeed
phosphorous was first prepared using fermented urine. I have found that feline urine works as well as or better than human urine. I simply take some
used kitty litter (the clumping kind works best) and add it to the sodium hydroxide solution. I was able to significantly increase the amount of
phosphorous I could extract by feeding my cat a diet of "high phosphorous" dry catfood (made especially for older cats). While this may
sound gross, there is nothing wrong with using biological reactions to provide chemicals; it has been done since the early days of chemistry. A few
months back, I even had an idea which would allow me to produce hydrazine, using my girlfriend's vagina. Unfortunately, my girlfriend broke up
with me shortly after I proposed the idea, so I never got a chance to test it.
Anyway, I'm sure that the above reactions will be of use to those desiring to prepare phosphorous tomorrow.
Enjoy,
Hodges
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Polverone
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How suspiciously interesting.
I fear that this is an early April Fool's joke, like last year's "strange lead compound." I have had the same idea before, but I
didn't succeed in noticeable production of phosphorus or phosphine from the nascent hydrogen produced by aluminum acting on an alkaline phosphate
solution. I believe BromicAcid has tried it as well. Post further experimental details if this isn't purely a joke.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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rift valley
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Polverone
I fear that this is an early April Fool's joke, like last year's "strange lead compound." I have had the same idea before, but I
didn't succeed in noticeable production of phosphorus or phosphine from the nascent hydrogen produced by aluminum acting on an alkaline phosphate
solution. I believe BromicAcid has tried it as well. Post further experimental details if this isn't purely a joke. |
Yeah its a joke hodges also wrote strange lead compound at almost the exact same time one year ago (or was it two years?) It isn't even April
yet!
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budullewraagh
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i dont think the phosphate would be reduced, really.
awhile back i did think of the following:
Al+Na3PO4-->Al2O3+Na2O+P
but that wouldnt work at reasonable temperatures
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Darkblade48
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The strange lead compound thing was last year 
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Chris The Great
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Obviously this needs to be tried in a furnace of some sort 
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cyclonite4
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I was under the impression that Drano was just sodium hydroxide, but if hodges is telling the truth about that, well... you learn something new
everyday. 
\"It is dangerous to be right, when your government is wrong.\" - Voltaire
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12AX7
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I was under the impression that Drano was lye and aluminum shavings (well, certain kinds of it). 
Tim
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Darkblade48
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| Quote: | Originally posted by 12AX7
I was under the impression that Drano was lye and aluminum shavings
Tim |
Lye is (usually) sodium hydroxide, though it can also refer to potassium hydroxide
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cyclonite4
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I think 12AX7 was suggesting he was unaware of sodium nitrate being present in drano, not confusing lye with sodium hydroxide.
BTW hodges, I don't blame your girlfriend for disagreeing with your proposal.
\"It is dangerous to be right, when your government is wrong.\" - Voltaire
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Natures Natrium
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| Quote: | Originally posted by hodges
Although phosphates are not too hard to find, there are other alternatives besides buying them. Recall that urine contains phosphates; indeed
phosphorous was first prepared using fermented urine. I have found that feline urine works as well as or better than human urine. I simply take some
used kitty litter (the clumping kind works best) and add it to the sodium hydroxide solution. I was able to significantly increase the amount of
phosphorous I could extract by feeding my cat a diet of "high phosphorous" dry catfood (made especially for older cats). While this may
sound gross, there is nothing wrong with using biological reactions to provide chemicals; it has been done since the early days of chemistry. A few
months back, I even had an idea which would allow me to produce hydrazine, using my girlfriend's vagina. Unfortunately, my girlfriend broke up
with me shortly after I proposed the idea, so I never got a chance to test it.
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lol! That is some of the funniest shit I have read in a long time.
\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.\" - Mark Twain (1835-1910)
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hodges
National Hazard
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| Quote: | Originally posted by cyclonite4
BTW hodges, I don't blame your girlfriend for disagreeing with your proposal. |
Yeah, I figured that might be a tipoff as to the validity of the rest of the message (that and today's date .
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BromicAcid
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Actually, I never tried this in basic medium, so... you had me going for a bit until I read the next message
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tom haggen
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You got me good with this one.
N/A
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kryss
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Good one best april Fools Ive seen. Def taking the piss as it were! Have you guys any idea what cat litter would smell like if you digested it up with
caustic - apart from any Phosphorus there there's loads of Nitrogen too so you'll have stinking cat piss giving of loads of ammonisa fumes
too!
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roamingnome
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future cats
after cracking up about hodges methods, chance would have it that it offered a great solution for kitty problems....
a particular kitty would pee in one corner and was too good for the other places.... only pee though... another person put litter there but cats
flick this everywhere and no one wants to step on litter in the kitchen...
then in a thirft store. i saw charcol air filter pads for like 40 cents. i said awsome...
so i put one of these charcol pads in a tray and covered with a paper towel for some reason.... just the other day it was so deliteful to see that
kitty had used her new space pad from the year 2000.
i hope this will form the microcosmic salt and after collecting a few pads will heat it up to sodium phosphite
then in some ceramic retort all the way to 'icy noctiluca' as Boyle called it.. back in shoot 1680
you probably have to collect a real lot huh?
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Levi
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Well, phosphorus can be prepared from urine but I have no idea how a vagina would aid in hydrazine production. The idea of combining
chemistry and sex sorta reminds me of that Seinfeld episode where George manages to combine sex and food into one, uncontrollable urge. Maybe someday
the pr0n industry will catch on to the appeal and film the worlds first chemistry themed porno film.
"Is that a test tube or are you just happy to see me?"
Chemcrime does not entail death. Chemcrime is death.
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YT2095
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Joking aside for a sec, I wonder if it`s possible to strip Phos from Phosphine in much the same way as is done with H2S in biogas filtration for the
sulpher?
the recent biogas thread made me wonder.
EDIT: This thread; http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=7631
[Edited on 1-2-2007 by YT2095]
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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garage chemist
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Yes, partial combustion of phosphine yields phosphorus. I read something about it somewhere here.
It would also be possible to brominate it to PBr3/5 and then reduce it with mercury as Sauron is planning to do with commercial PBr3.
Water is easier reduced than phosphorus (at 900°C in the gas phase, P will react with steam to H3PO4 and H2), so reduction of phosphates in aqueous
solution is not possible. Also, white P reacts with alkalis to PH3 and hypophosphite, so PH3 would be the only product if the Al reduction would work.
Acidic or nearly neutral solution with Al amalgam would be required, but as said, it is not possible in water.
I have said it several times before: Phosphides are easily made from phosphates by reduction with magnesium or aluminium powder! The reaction is
similar to thermite, only less vigorous. No furnace needed! Just a crucible which is covered to prevent entry of air. Ignition via Mg ribbon.
Adding water or acid to the reacted mix releases PH3.
[Edited on 1-2-2007 by garage chemist]
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YT2095
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yeah, I was thinking along similar lines, Phosphine is reasonably easy to obtain, so to break that down also May be another way to go.
2 smaller problems is better than one Big One sometimes.
I know my Attempt at making Phos the hard way worked once, but I think that was more Fluke and impurity than judgement on my part, I`ve never managed
to replicate it since using Pure ingredients 
it`s a tenacious little beasty is Phos!
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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unionised
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I'm pretty sure PH3 can be broken down by simply heating it.
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garage chemist
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I read up on Phosphine in Ullmann, and it surprises me how easy it is:
"Above 375°C, it decomposes into the elements".
I am positive that a doable OTC preparation method for phosphorus will go via PH3 as the intermediate.
Get a phosphate salt, reduce it with Mg or Al, hydrolyse to phosphine, lead this through a heated glass tube to obtain elemental phosphorus.
Of course, this will yield the white modification since P boils at 280°C and condensing P vapor always yields the white form (though white P is
always colored orange or red when not purified, so never assume you have red P when the condensing drops are red!).
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YT2095
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yeah, I had that before when trying to make Phosphides in a CO2 atmos, it didn`t work and only succeeded in distilling the phos into an orange waxy
substance I later found out to be impure phos.
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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garage chemist
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"Orange waxy" is an appropriate description of what I obtained from sublimation of red P.
It is white phosphorus of high purity!
A more fitting name for P4 is yellow phosphorus.
It is extremely difficult to obtain white phosphorus that is actually white, and this turns yellow in light in a matter of seconds.
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garage chemist
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I might give this a try in the holidays (in a few months), just to see if I can make elemental P.
*puts 15mm diameter quartz tube on list of things to buy from the glassblower*
The generation and decomposition of phosphine will have to be carried out in inert gas atmosphere (I'll use CO2). The explosion limits of phophine in
air are 1,6- nearly 100%, so exclusion of oxygen is essential to avoid blowing up the apparatus as soon as the heating is begun.
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