cmos6667
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Palm oil
I was unable to find an answer by myself and to me it looks like they are unnecessarily deforesting important lands.
What's so valuable in palm oil you can't get from any other source?! Myristic, palmitic, oleic, stearic, linoleic acid can surely all be synthesized,
no?
I remember a documentary about how ecstasy is destroying cambodian forests because of the safrole that's in sassafras tree roots - here's the thing
though: there's plenty of eugenol from multiple sources and it can be converted into safrole
Am I missing something or is it convenience/cost of natural vs synthetic?
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Zombie
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I believe the answer lies in the same slash, and burn techniques used for a century by "Big Oil" companies.
It's certainly less expensive to harvest plant matter in third world countries than it is to establish a facility to synthesize compounds employing
highly skilled workers.
http://www.ijee.ieefoundation.org/vol1/issue2/IJEE_07_v1n2.p...
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Zom.
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BromicAcid
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Besides, if someone looked at two soft drinks and one said it contained synthetic palm oil and the other just palm oil I would wager the majority of
people would chose the 'all natural' type despite deforesting the rain forest.
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cmos6667
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But theoretically, I COULD produce synthetic palm oil from say animal fats, sell that to palm oil buyers as the real deal, so they have no way of
knowing whether or not it is "all natural"...
Just like, say, sell non-halal meat as halal or horse as beef, with the difference that they couldn't tell apart one from the other?
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Zombie
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Sure. Why not! 
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Zom.
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karlos³
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Those rainforests are destroyed because thats what safrole containing trees like camphor do... they poison the earth they are growing in, and only
their saplings can tolerate those chemicals, but, they dispose those chemicals in the rainforest, as far as i´ve read, so what?
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Etaoin Shrdlu
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You could just produce palm oil sustainably, instead of doing something illegal and unethical. I don't buy into the "natural is better for you" hype,
but people should be free to make choices based on real information.
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cmos6667
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Wait, what's the problem in deception when NMR can determine them as identical? Am I missing something?
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RareEarth
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Cost. In a large majority of cases, getting things such as palm oil from the environment is significantly cheaper than producing it synthetically.
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Zombie
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Quote: Originally posted by RareEarth  |
Cost. In a large majority of cases, getting things such as palm oil from the environment is significantly cheaper than producing it synthetically.
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RareEarth is correct.
Cmos... What's the problem with deception? Really? Look around you brother. Deception is the cause of most of the problems the world, and it's
peoples face.
What's one more little white lie, eh?
[Edited on 4-18-2015 by Zombie]
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cmos6667
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Right... You know Gaylord? They used to make DMSO from lignin and that was their big selling point (something about it being better for
pharmaceuticals and whatnot), but they since switched their synthesis to a more profitable source without putting a big label on their bottles saying
"this wasn't made from lignin, so ignore our previous claims"
Users of it will still be convinced that their DMSO is better than the competitor's until they realize that they've been paying a higher price for no
good reason, then saying "meh, it works"
On a purely molecular level, my point being "what mom doesn't know won't make mommy sad"
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Etaoin Shrdlu
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As long as they're not saying it's still produced from lignin I don't see the problem. If they are that would be unethical. Even if the fat mixture in
synthetic palm oil was 100% chemically identical to that in "natural" palm oil, people may want to support specific production methods, or they may be
looking for specific naturally occurring trace chemicals, or they may just be idiots; in none of these circumstances is it your place to mislead them
benevolently.
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BromicAcid
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Take for example acetic acid. In the states at least, food grade acetic acid must come from microbial action. No exceptions. Doesn't matter that
methanol carbonylation is cheaper. Most people I have met like what comes into their body to come from a natural origin, i.e., you need a natural
feedstock (even natural feed stocks with minor chemical modifications are frowned upon). It does not matter if things are 100% identical in final
form, as Etaoin Shrdlu said, people like to make choices based on real information. Even if they make what would seem to you to be the wrong choice.
But, in the big picture the best idea would be to just market it as something new. Make a synthetic version and market it as "Joy Throat Lube" or
something of that nature. Say it functions just like palm oil... but better! People like things that are better and it will justify the increased
price.
Unfortunately, by the time that gets off the ground we'll be back to using 100% all natural whale oil (just like grand-grand-grand-dad used to make).
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Zombie
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We have a myriad of laws that cover this in the US anyway.
The Fair Packaging and Labeling Act, and the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act are the first to come to mind.
Miss labeling a product or purposeful omissions from labeling are not really something that is taken lightly here.
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UC235
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What's so good about palm oil? Cost and stability for food. It is being used to produce biodiesel in warm climates (it will gel readily in colder
weather). Smaller amounts are funneled into soap (sodium palmate) and cosmetic production (for example, cetearyl alcohol (a mix of cetyl and stearyl
alcohols) is the high-pressure hydrogenation product).
The popularity has nothing to do with the components of the oil specifically. Palm replaces partially hydrogenated vegetable oils as a
solid-at-room-temp oil which is extra useful in baked and certain fried goods. It does so while being "trans fat free" and "non-GMO" (most soybeans
are some form of GMO at this point, not that anyone should care) to appeal to the paranoid modern marketplace. As a mostly saturated oil, it is highly
resistant to rancidity, improving product shelf life.
The oil yield per hectare of palm is superior to all other major oil crops, by almost an order of magnitude in some cases. I don't believe that they
require any sort of fertilizer input unlike annual oil crops (like soy). It is fairly easy to harvest and extract and produces a second product, palm
kernel oil, which sells for a higher price. However, it grows best (best oil yield) in climates where there's normally rainforest so down they come.
Can palm oil be produced sustainably? Sure. Can enough be made to satisfy current (and growing) demand. Probably not. Is there really any incentive
(financial, because that is the only thing that will work) for poor 3rd world farmers to farm sustainably? Almost definitely not. End-consumers give
less than a fuck on average so there is no motivation for corporations to seek out (and pay more for) sustainable palm. And who, then would go and
make sure everyone is being sustainable? The RSPO? (yeah, sure...)
[Edited on 19-4-2015 by UC235]
| Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid |
Take for example acetic acid. In the states at least, food grade acetic acid must come from microbial action. No exceptions. Doesn't matter that
methanol carbonylation is cheaper. |
Not true, actually. See this: http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyG...
You can use petrochemical acetic acid in foods. You just can't call it vinegar. Around passover time here, you see "Imitation white vinegar" in the
kosher foods sections. This is petrochemical derived and avoids a lot of (stupid and convoluted) religious arguments about whether you can consume or
possess vinegar during passover.
[Edited on 19-4-2015 by UC235]
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