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Author: Subject: Druken Aga Challenge (DAC) #3 - Closed (but open to discussion)
plante1999
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[*] posted on 31-1-2015 at 21:51


Quote: Originally posted by radiance88  
There seems to be two sides here in this thread - those who think it can be done, and try (even if the yield is inefficient), and those who think that it's impossible, and are persistent in telling us it's pointless for even trying for this goal.


I think you missed it, there is the ones which think they can find a gold ring at the beach with sticks (a very unlikely possibility). And the one that think if they wanted to look it would be way more practical to use a metal detector.
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aga
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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 01:20


... then there are those with dangerously little Knowledge, who failed to find the gold ring with the sticks and metal detector, and carried on trying.

One of those still trying to find the ring, might, by pure chance, discover a functioning Field Technology.

Very far fetched, of course, but the fact remains that people actually Doing Stuff stumble upon all sorts of things, probably unrelated to what they were trying to do.




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j_sum1
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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 04:30


If I don't find out how to make nitric acid, I will find out what I do and don't know.
I don't think I should have to defend that notion.
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blogfast25
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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 06:18


Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
If I don't find out how to make nitric acid, I will find out what I do and don't know.
I don't think I should have to defend that notion.


Not in the slightest but its not a very effective way of conducting applied research.

Using low MM amines and amides as models and looking for catalysts that would improve NOx yield during their combustion would be more targeted, for instance.

[Edited on 1-2-2015 by blogfast25]




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deltaH
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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 07:49


Quote:
Using low MM amines and amides as models and looking for catalysts that would improve NOx yield during their combustion would be more targeted, for instance.

This has been suggested, including using hexamine containing fuel tablets (my favorite), urea and melamine. Amides have not, though urea is amide-like. Any ideas for OTC amides that could be useful for this? Ideally what you're burning should be easy to burn (something urea and melamine are not) with a reasonable heat of combustion.




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blogfast25
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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 08:31


OTC amides: Nylon. One N for every six C.

[Edited on 1-2-2015 by blogfast25]




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Etaoin Shrdlu
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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 10:17


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  
Apparently amines do form NOx when burned. http://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/react/7



Quote:
The combustion of amines yields noxious NOx gases.


Doesn't say much about yield though, does it?

No, this was the problem with most of the links I turned up before I ran across the term "fuel nitrogen" and started hitting somewhat more significant information. I just felt it was a reasonable indication that burning nitrogen-containing compounds had a noticeable effect on NOx generation.

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Here's someone preparing cadaverine, a diamine. Doesn't look too hard. Burn and lets see?

:D

Now that would have somebody kicking down my door. (Or! I'd get the whole neighborhood to myself for a while.) If I were going to attempt this I'd either use one of the amino acids that are readily available in bulk, or straight soy protein since legumes seem to be under consideration.
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blogfast25
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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 10:39


Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  
Now that would have somebody kicking down my door.


Huh? Explain?




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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 11:00


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  
Now that would have somebody kicking down my door.


Huh? Explain?


The smell of cadaverine in addition to burning and vaporizing it, some neighbors might not appreciate it.;)
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deltaH
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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 11:17


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
OTC amides: Nylon. One N for every six C.


panties on fire.jpg - 136kB




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blogfast25
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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 11:18


Quote: Originally posted by gdflp  

The smell of cadaverine in addition to burning and vaporizing it, some neighbors might not appreciate it.;)


Boh. Depends on how you do things.




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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 12:22


Hmm. A Catalyst sounds great.

I've got Copper, so ill try that, hot.

Wife says NO to the use of her Platinum.




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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 16:54


Jokes aside, if I had to put money on a catalyst that could help oxidise amines/amides in fairly 'normal' combustion conditions, I'd be thinking of a transition metal oxide with oxidising properties like CuO, V2O5 or MnO2 (not an exhaustive list).

Catalyst would oxidise -NH2/-NH- to NO or NO2, itself being reduced to a lower oxidation state.

Air oxygen would regenerate the catalyst to its highest oxidation state.




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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 18:15


Thanks for the thought blogfast. there is no reason why I can't add some battery gunk MnO2 to my experiment and see if that doesn't help things along. There will be some iron oxides in there too as well in all likelihood. I will get rid of the ZnCl2 first though.
Selecting a catalyst is well outside my experience though. I have some CoO and NiO that I could try also, but that is getting beyond my third-world otc approach possibly.
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deltaH
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[*] posted on 2-2-2015 at 00:00


Here's a present for you j_sum1, "Manganese in the catalytic oxidation of ammonia" full text available here:
https://archive.org/details/manganeseincatal00piggrich
Break a beaker ;)

[Edited on 2-2-2015 by deltaH]




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[*] posted on 2-2-2015 at 06:56


For this kind of heterogeneous catalysis a fluidised bed reactor would be ideal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidized_bed_reactor

[Edited on 2-2-2015 by blogfast25]




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[*] posted on 2-2-2015 at 07:26


Hey, my coffee roaster works on the same principle. Hmmm....
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[*] posted on 2-2-2015 at 09:58


I warmly recommend delta's last link: it's practically a guide to build-your-own-nitric-acid-plant but quite OTC.



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deltaH
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[*] posted on 2-2-2015 at 10:10


Yes, I would say Charles Snowden Piggot has won this competition posthumously 95 years ago.



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[*] posted on 2-2-2015 at 10:36


Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  
Yes, I would say Charles Snowden Piggot has won this competition posthumously 95 years ago.


Right on the money, Delta.




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deltaH
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[*] posted on 2-2-2015 at 10:53


So sad to see the library stamps on the back page, only read twice in 1926 and 1928... very poignant :(

Bert, please consider adding this 17-page gem to the SM library for archival purposes, lest it is lost.




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[*] posted on 2-2-2015 at 11:44


+1

definitely worth archiving/preserving.




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[*] posted on 2-2-2015 at 12:02


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
a fluidised bed reactor would be ideal:

I had a fluidised bed once.

Never going to drink 16 pints ever ever again.




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[*] posted on 2-2-2015 at 13:28


Soak the soybeans with potassium permanganate solution then dry? The high temperatures during combustion should quickly decompose this to active MnO2 catalyst, might even form within the beans during soaking by organic reduction maybe.

****
I've been meaning to calculate this: according to the wiki on proteins, the average nitrogen content is typically around 16%. According to the wiki on soybeans, the average protein is about 36.5%. That would make the average nitrogen content of soybeans 5.8%... a s@#t-load.

So 1kg of soybeans can theoretically produce a maximum of 263g of 100% HNO3 or 404g (291ml) of 65% HNO3, but I would be extremely impressed if one achieved even 1/10 of that yield because of poor selectivity (for example forming N2 instead of NO during combustion and also failing to absorb the flue NOx into the water completely).

Then again... we have super MnO2 cat now :P and ice water should help a lot in capturing dilute NOx gases.

[Edited on 2-2-2015 by deltaH]




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[*] posted on 2-2-2015 at 13:52


Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  
Soak the soybeans with potassium permanganate solution then dry? The high temperatures during combustion should quickly decompose this to active MnO2 catalyst, might even form within the beans during soaking by organic reduction maybe.


Sillier ideas have made it big. I mean, glowing filaments from carbonised goats hair, what was that all about? :D

Wouldn't have to KMnO4 either: Mn sulphate or acetate with a bit of alkali would soon dry/oxidise to MnO2.

Other interesting substrate for similar treatment: urea prills.


[Edited on 2-2-2015 by blogfast25]




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