| Pages:
1
2 |
Bimseby
Harmless
Posts: 11
Registered: 11-10-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Ball milling Black Powder with ceramic media
Hello all mad scientists out there!
I would like to know if anyone has any experience with ball milling Black Powder with alumina balls and whether it is hopeless to attempt to, or not?
The reason I ask is that I am a bit in doubt whether this particular type of ceramics are sparking or not.
from skylighter.com
"Ceramic is hard, does not wear out quickly, but some types of ceramic do spark."
http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to/choose-ball-milli...
Please do share if you have any knowledge to contribute with 
[Edited on 13-12-2014 by Bimseby]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
'BP'?
Please, we may be hobby scientists but we're not mind readers.
Concise communication is a hallmark of good science.
|
|
|
Bimseby
Harmless
Posts: 11
Registered: 11-10-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
BP is a contraction for Black Powder, sorry I should have made it clear 
|
|
|
Bert
Super Administrator
Posts: 2821
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
|
|
Start here:
Ian von Maltitz: Black Powder
Then look at this:
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh: Ball Milling Theory and Practice
And finally, you could read this short post regarding how NOT to mill the complete ingredients, just the separate components:
Some Guy: posting about black powder
| Quote: |
One more time:
Making powder is DANGEROUS!
All commercial powder mills are built with the EXPECTATION THEY WILL BLOW UP. Because they will, if used long enough.
Look at the history of the DuPont family. Notice all the dead (mangement level!) people, and blown up mills?
http://www.historypin.com/attach/uid32851/tours/view/id/945/...
Google the names of any black powder maker, historical or modern along with "explosion", "deaths", etc. You will find plenty.
After Du Pont sold the last powder mill in the USA to GOEX, there were a series of problems. A lot of you know about the GOEX production moving out of
PA, then moving again- The meaty part starts at page 10.
http://www.laflinandrand.com/madmonk/history.pdf
This link is instructive on how NOT to run a BP manufacturing operation.
Never hurry. Never cut corners.
|
[Edited on 13-12-2014 by Bert]
[Edited on 13-12-2014 by Bert]
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
|
|
|
hissingnoise
International Hazard
Posts: 3940
Registered: 26-12-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pulverulescent!
|
|
| Quote: | | Please, we may be hobby scientists but we're not mind readers. |
Ah come on, Gert ─ what else could it be?
| Quote: | | Please do share if you have any knowledge to contribute with |
I use AH lead shot (UN) and have safely ground dry BP in an unattended mill.
|
|
|
Fulmen
International Hazard
Posts: 1716
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bored
|
|
Go ahead, just be sure to stand waaaay back and don't be surprised if it blows up. There is more to this than the presence of sparks or not, imagine
the energy released in the impact between two balls. With ceramic media there is no deformation, meaning the impact will be focused on a very small
area. And as I'm sure you know, if you give any energetic material a big enough whack it will go off.
Lead is safer because it's softer. At every impact the balls will deform, spreading the energy over a much larger surface. This also makes the mill
more efficient as you don't need the huge pressures that ceramic balls will produce. The larger contact area of lead means that more material will be
crushed for each impact.
|
|
|
hissingnoise
International Hazard
Posts: 3940
Registered: 26-12-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pulverulescent!
|
|
| Quote: | | Go ahead, just be sure to stand waaaay back and don't be surprised if it blows up. |
Indeed Fulmen, the mill should be operated remotely and shouldn't be approached while running!
It does seem though, to produce fast powder faster . . . ?
|
|
|
Fulmen
International Hazard
Posts: 1716
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bored
|
|
If anything ceramic media would probably be slower. Now if you're milling hard materials ceramic would be better, but for BP the hardness isn't needed
and comes at a cost. Lead has a higher density, which means more kinetic energy for a given volume.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Errmmm... just about anything really.
I hope you're not opposed to people expressing themselves understandably.
|
|
|
hissingnoise
International Hazard
Posts: 3940
Registered: 26-12-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pulverulescent!
|
|
Kinda associate BMs, CM and AHLS with BP, myself . . . 
|
|
|
Bimseby
Harmless
Posts: 11
Registered: 11-10-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thank you guys for your replys, I learned a few things.
I will be running the mill at some point later, mixing the nitrate with the milled charcoal and sulphur. My plan is to grab my longest wires and place
the mill on a field far away. 
|
|
|
Amos
International Hazard
Posts: 1406
Registered: 25-3-2014
Location: Yes
Member Is Offline
Mood: No
|
|
Would there be any downside to grinding the black powder wet, either with water or a solvent?
|
|
|
Bimseby
Harmless
Posts: 11
Registered: 11-10-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
How would you make sure you have as small kno3-crystals as possible when you dry it?
|
|
|
Amos
International Hazard
Posts: 1406
Registered: 25-3-2014
Location: Yes
Member Is Offline
Mood: No
|
|
So far as I've heard about black powder on forums and videos and such, you DON'T want the finest crystals as possible. That's why people make
granulated gunpowder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder#Corning
|
|
|
Fulmen
International Hazard
Posts: 1716
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bored
|
|
Don't know about wet, but there should be some moisture when milling. The impacts will produce heat, and due to the solubility properties of
potassium nitrate it should quickly dissolve and precipitate out again. I believe this is key to a good product, it ensures every bit of fuel is
thoroughly covered with a layer of fine oxidizer.
|
|
|
IrC
International Hazard
Posts: 2710
Registered: 7-3-2005
Location: Eureka
Member Is Offline
Mood: Discovering
|
|
Anyone try using lead antimony balls? You will not have as much Pb contamination but they are so much harder I wonder if impact becomes a problem. Has
anyone tried using 91 percent rubbing alcohol to moisten the powder while milling?
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
|
|
|
TheAlchemistPirate
Hazard to Others
Posts: 151
Registered: 25-3-2014
Location: The point of no return
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enigmatic
|
|
Actually, using hot water/rubbing alcohol is a very common way of coating the sulfur/charcoal with the oxidizer. Normally it is done when you don't
have a ball mill, and need smaller amounts of black powder. Basically the charcoal,sulfur, and oxidizer(ground to a tolerable level separately)are
dissolved in hot water, then the solution is poured into a shallow basin. Rubbing alcohol is added, and this forces the black powder to crystallize
out as a single material (if that makes any sense). The crumbly substance is then sieved/recrystallized until it is the desired grain size. This makes
corned powder, which burns faster and more powerfully, and when packing for a salute/cannon you don't need to allow air space, since it already has it
between the grains. Now if the OP is wanting fine powder for a rocket engine, I don't know if corned powder will work as well.
Another thing, when pressing the milled black powder(to break it with a hammer to make corned powder) if you so choose that method, moisture is
always added, both for safety and the integrity of the "puck" of black powder produced.
Also, (almost done) it is very possible to safely mill the whole black powder mixture(unattended)using lead media (even with antimony added, which
is commonly practiced), in the right ball mills (normally lined with hardened rubber). I somehow doubt that some critics saying these things have read
much about BP manufacture. However, as Bert said, never cut corners, or do things without reading everything you can about it.
Sources: Reading MANY books/reputable sites about pyrotechnics production, especially about black powder.
[Edited on 14-12-2014 by TheAlchemistPirate]
"Is this even science anymore?!"
|
|
|
The_Davster
A pnictogen
Posts: 2861
Registered: 18-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: .
|
|
IrC: Used to mill BP with lead antimony balls for many years. No issues. Usually with a few percent water added.
[Edited on 14-12-14 by The_Davster]
|
|
|
Fulmen
International Hazard
Posts: 1716
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bored
|
|
Correct, hardened lead will work fine. If you want to learn more about milling BP, do a search for "Lloyd Sponenburg". He was the one who popularized
ball mills back in '95 or so, and he was quite active on usenet rec.pyrotechnics at the time. Maybe his book is still available?
|
|
|
Fulmen
International Hazard
Posts: 1716
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bored
|
|
Yup, that's the one. Although I do not condone the copying of his material, he's just a bloke like the rest of us not a company with deep pockets. Pay
the man if you can, I feel he's deserved it. I never bought the book myself, but then again I could just ask him back when he was on rec.pyro. Those
were the days...
|
|
|
IrC
International Hazard
Posts: 2710
Registered: 7-3-2005
Location: Eureka
Member Is Offline
Mood: Discovering
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  | | Yup, that's the one. Although I do not condone the copying of his material, he's just a bloke like the rest of us not a company with deep pockets. Pay
the man if you can, I feel he's deserved it. I never bought the book myself, but then again I could just ask him back when he was on rec.pyro. Those
were the days... |
You are right of course so I deleted the post. I put the title you mentioned in google and a pdf link came right up. Posted it without thinking as it
sounded like you were unable to find a copy. It would irritate me to have my work tossed online for free. Most often I do not agree with causing
someone not to get paid for their work. One exception being one of the 'Evil Genius' books. The author contacted me and asked if one of my articles
could be a chapter in his up and coming book in the series. I agreed merely asking for a copy in print or PDF in exchange. Never heard from him again
and about a decade later found a PDF online. Downloaded it out of curiosity to see if he used my work. He had, so I figured it was fair if I had a
copy for free. After all I am sure he made good money on the book and all I had asked for was a copy in exchange.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
|
|
|
greenlight
National Hazard
Posts: 741
Registered: 3-11-2014
Member Is Online
Mood: Energetic
|
|
I am getting a ball mill in the next week or so and was going to order some proper pyrotechnic grinding media online. In the meantime will medium
size lead fish sinkers work well as non-sparking media for milling black powder, are they safe to use?
|
|
|
hissingnoise
International Hazard
Posts: 3940
Registered: 26-12-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pulverulescent!
|
|
Ceramic media will work well if the oxidiser is ground separately and the components mixed by running the mill without media . . .
If you intend compressing and granulating, the powder should be moistened by ethanol to avoid formation of larger KNO3 crystals!
http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath...
[Edited on 14-12-2014 by hissingnoise]
|
|
|
TheAlchemistPirate
Hazard to Others
Posts: 151
Registered: 25-3-2014
Location: The point of no return
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enigmatic
|
|
HNO3?!
Anyways, yes, lead fishing weights should work fine. I have even heard of them being more efficient than spherical media.
"Is this even science anymore?!"
|
|
|
Bert
Super Administrator
Posts: 2821
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen | | Correct, hardened lead will work fine. If you want to learn more about milling BP, do a search for "Lloyd Sponenburg". He was the one who popularized
ball mills back in '95 or so, and he was quite active on usenet rec.pyrotechnics at the time. Maybe his book is still available?
|
Look at the above posts ? Sponenburgh book is linked on 3rd reply... Also Ian von Maltitz.
[Edited on 14-12-2014 by Bert]
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
