| Pages:
1
2
3
..
14 |
madscientist
National Hazard
Posts: 962
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: American Midwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: pyrophoric
|
|
Benzene synthesis
Synthesis of benzene seems to be a topic of interest and value, considering that benzene has now been labeled as an "evil scary carcinogen of
inevitable death".
There's several routes that come to mind. First, is a Friedel-Crafts reaction that Osmonium suggested: AlCl3 will catalyze the conversion
of toluene into benzene and mesitylene. A second route would be decarboxylating benzoic acid by strongly heating it. A third route would be reacting
1,3,5-trichlorocyclohexane with a strong base. And a fourth route, which I am not completely certain would work, would be aldol condensation -
involving adding a strong base to acetaldehyde, which should catalyze conversion into benzene.
Any thoughts?
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
|
|
|
BASF
Hazard to Others
Posts: 282
Registered: 5-11-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: hydrophilic
|
|
Do you have more information on the decarboxylation of benzoic acid?
Decomposition temp. and similar things?
I think the decarboxylation of benzoic acid would be very attractive for the home chemist due to the widespread use of benzoic acid in the food
industry, and therefor it should be easy to get and not that expensive.
I still have some 100-200g of benzoic acid from a drug store.
HLR
|
|
|
madscientist
National Hazard
Posts: 962
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: American Midwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: pyrophoric
|
|
I do not know at what temperature benzoic acid decarboxylates. If I remember correctly, salicylic acid decarboxylates at a tad above 200C, so I
suppose that benzoic acid would decarboxylate at a temperature somewhere above 200C.
On a side note, is anyone aware of any sources of any cyclohexanes, especially 1,3,5-trichlorocyclohexane?
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
|
|
|
notagod
Harmless
Posts: 21
Registered: 23-10-2002
Location: Sunny Scandinavia
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If I remeber right, it does'nt have to be benzoic acid, the sodium salt will do. Mix it with waterfree sodium carbonate and heat it gently. Benzene
will distill over. You can also have some sand mixed in to have a more "smooth" reaction.
|
|
|
Rhadon
Hazard to Others
Posts: 169
Registered: 26-5-2002
Location: Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
sodium benzoate instead of benzoid acid
Yes, benzene is an interesting subject.
I think I remember that I saw an experiment in a basic experimental chemistry book which advised to react benzoic acid with sodium hydroxide at first
and decomposing the resulting sodium benzoate by heating it.
Madscientist, do you have further information about toluene / AlCl3?
|
|
|
blazter
Hazard to Self
Posts: 71
Registered: 3-9-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Benzene from tolulene
if i recall correctly megalomania mentioned that he was working on a synthesis route for benzene from tolulene using KMnO4 to oxidize it. Using KMnO4
has the advantage of being fairly easily found OTC or it too can be made from OTC chemicals. I don't think he ever published this route completely
but refered to it in a thread on E&W about KMnO4 synthesis.
|
|
|
Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
|
|
He was probably thinking of benzoic acid decarboxylation, then. The KMnO4 would be used to oxidize the toluene to benzoic acid.
|
|
|
madscientist
National Hazard
Posts: 962
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: American Midwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: pyrophoric
|
|
It seems that this reaction would work.
NaC6H5COO + NaOH --(heat)--> Na2CO3 + C6H6
I haven't any more information on preparing benzene from toluene and aluminum trichloride.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
|
|
|
Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
|
|
hmmm
| Quote: | It seems that this reaction would work.
NaC6H5COO + NaOH --(heat)--> Na2CO3 + C6H6 |
That seems reasonable. Calcium hydroxide might be preferrable, since it won't fuse very easily and is cheaper. One could presumably use other aromatic
carboxylic acids, such as phthalic acid. That's not a major improvement, but one could start with the slightly-more-common xylene instead of toluene.
Another improvement would be finding an alternative to KMnO4 for the oxidation; its availability and price vary to much to always suggest it.
|
|
|
Marvin
National Hazard
Posts: 995
Registered: 13-10-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Permanganates can always be recycled though, which is a big advantage.
|
|
|
Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
|
|
Recycled? What method did you have in mind? I've seen electrochemical syntheses of permanganates, and ones that use fused oxidizers + MnO2. Neither
method is exactly a recycling in my book...
|
|
|
10fingers
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 16-11-2002
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Potassium permanganate is available as a cleaner for water softeners. I purchase it at a home improvement store for $15.00 per 5 lbs. It seems to be
of a reasonably good purity.
|
|
|
Blauw
Harmless
Posts: 1
Registered: 4-2-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi there,
The following might also work to gain benzene. Try to protonate phenol and heat it. Probably the benzene will lose the water. What do you guys think.
I never tried it before.
Blauw
|
|
|
Blind Angel
National Hazard
Posts: 845
Registered: 24-11-2002
Location: Québec
Member Is Offline
Mood: Meh!
|
|
Sorry to dig-up an old post but i found that during search on Furan and Pyrrole Ring and it said (vaguely) that Benzoic Acid can be Decarboxyled by
heat and the addition of Calcium Oxide (CaO) wich is Lime....
If the link intereset you: http://www.cem.msu.edu/~reusch/VirtualText/react3.htm
but it doesn't say much about quantities...
Edit: Url bogus
[Edited on 7-3-2003 by Blind Angel]
/}/_//|//) /-\\/|//¬/=/_
My PGP Key Fingerprint: D4EA A609 55E4 7ADD 8529 359D D6E2 33F6 4C76 78ED |
|
|
Marvin
National Hazard
Posts: 995
Registered: 13-10-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I seem to be bad at replying, sorry Polverone.
MnO2 can be fused with hydroxide, and this will air oxidise to Manganate(VI), acidify and it disproportionates to manganate(VII) and MnO2.
I'm very interested in the production of benzene from acetone, the main step being cyclisation with sulphuric acid to sym trimethylbenzene.
Outside of industrial conditions this is only 25% yeild though.
|
|
|
menchaca
Hazard to Self
Posts: 80
Registered: 12-3-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
i´m quite interested too in the production of bencene from acetone, if you know something else please let me know thanks!
|
|
|
Nick F
Hazard to Others
Posts: 439
Registered: 7-9-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Even trimethylbenzene/mesitylene could be useful after some careful nitration to TNTMB. I would expect slightly more power and slightly higher density
than trinitronapthalene, which is intermediate in power to DNB and DNT. Not very strong, but would be good with a bit of AN. I'll see what I can
find out about making mesitylene from acetone...
Hmm, just remembered something. I think I remember someone saying that nitration of mesitylene is/can be dangerous. In that case oxidising it to
3,5-dimethylbenzoic acid before nitration will help the nitration go nice and calmly. It would probably decarboxylate either during the reaction, or
afterwards if you boil it in water, to give TNm-xylene, and from there further oxidations/decarboxylations will lead to TNT then TNB.
|
|
|
madscientist
National Hazard
Posts: 962
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: American Midwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: pyrophoric
|
|
The third nitration of mesitylene is what makes it dangerous - it must not be conducted at elevated temperatures, or an explosion may result.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
|
|
|
Marvin
National Hazard
Posts: 995
Registered: 13-10-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Initial report of formation of mesitylene from acetone and sulphuric acid.
KANE, J. prakt. Chem. [l], 15, 131 (1838).
Investigation of maximum yeild (27%)
V. E. TISHCHENKO and L. I. ANTZUS, Zh. prikl. khim. 4, 806 (1931).
Using HCl at 100 atmospheres 36% Yeild,
V. IPATIYEV, B. DOLGOV and J. VOLNOR, Ber. 63, 3072 (1930).
Using HCl, sealed tubes, 145 to 195C up to 47% yeild.
E. SUCHARDA and H. KUCZYNSKI, Roczniki Chem. 14, 1182 (1934)
If anyone has access to a university library, Id be very interested to read these myself.
No prizes for guessing where these refs come from,
It does also state that explosive power of trinitromesitylene is about the same as DNT, but the sensitivity to impact is high, about the same as TNX,
probably becuase of the high substitution of the ring.
One of my older organic chemistry books simply states that benzene can be made by distilling 1 part of benzoic acid with 2 parts lime, though its
unclear if this is refering to quicklime or slaked lime. I suspect a little extra water in the mixture would not hurt. If the amount of benzoic acid
is too high, or if calcium benzoate is used on its own then it forms benzophenone instead (from memory).
From mesitylene the toluene process seems like it would work just as well, alkaline permanganate oxidation (for example) followed by distillation with
x6 (or x4 depending on how it scales) of lime.
Nice the edit feature works now.
[Edited on 27-3-2003 by Marvin]
|
|
|
Organikum
resurrected
Posts: 2337
Registered: 12-10-2002
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: frustrated
|
|
Benzene by reverse Friedl-Crafts acetylation from toluene with AlCl3 or better AlI3 and a efficient column with very high reflux/distill ratio
(suggested 500/1).
Practical: Toss a lot Al foil in a flask add toluene and I2 and distill.
(Rhodium and Osmium merits)
from gasoline by distillation usng a "Podbielniak still" whatever this maybe. Someone a idea?
(Osmium and lugh merits)
here is to add that it is told that aviation fuel for the Cessnas contains much more benzene which is so easier to distill also.
Benzene from benzoic acid.
patents:
DE 936,036 (1952)
DE 958,920 (1956)
(I can upload these to the FTP if requested)
The mentioned process of heating benzoic acid with lime/NaOH seems to be problematic was told. At least a copper catalyst is needed (copper/cupric
sulfate) and the temperatures needed are very high so there are reasonable problems to catch and condense the produced benzene.
Benzene from acetylene, see the attached file please.
(200°C, Cr/Al catalyst, high yields and purity)
hope this helps
ORG
Attachment: acetylene _to_benzene.pdf (354kB)
This file has been downloaded 4906 times
|
|
|
Madog
Hazard to Others
Posts: 221
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: lysergic
|
|
i atualy saw the benzene from acetylene a few years ago in a kiddy chemistry book i have(a thing one with lots of pics). sometimes those little books
have some cool reactions
also, i woudl ike to make some benzene, i was thinking about ttakeing some Al and putting it in a flask and heat it as i pump chlorine in that was
generated by HCl + KMnO4 ---> through tube or something that has prilled CaCl2 to dry and then reflux the anhydrouse AlCl3 with toluene and distill
off the benzene
is this good?
[Edited on 5/4/03 by Madog]
Most people outgrow their pyro tendencies, we are the ones who\'s tendencies outgrew us.
|
|
|
Ramiel
Vicious like a ferret
Posts: 484
Registered: 19-8-2002
Location: Room at the Back, Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-demented
|
|
The following reaction caught my eye;
7.CO + 6.CH<sub>4</sub> ==(AlCl<sub>3</sub> ==>
C<sub>6</sub>H<sub>6</sub> + C<sub>6</sub>H<sub>5</sub>-CH<sub>3</sub> +
15/2.H<sub>2</sub>O
This is an experimental process for the conversion of synthesis gas and methane to benzene and toluene. Synthesis gas can be made one of two ways;
<html><li>super high pressure controlled oxidation,</li><br>
<li>leading steam over hot carbon in the absence of air</li></html>
I would say the second would be of interest to the amateur chemist.
I'm sure that with a little invention and some piping, this could be pulled off.
Caveat Orator
|
|
|
BASF
Hazard to Others
Posts: 282
Registered: 5-11-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: hydrophilic
|
|
Zinc + phenol
another possibility:
When the vapours of Phenol are passed over red-hot zinc dust, then reduction takes place, as a result benzene is formed.
C6H5OH + Zn ® C6H6 + Zn0
HLR
|
|
|
Organikum
resurrected
Posts: 2337
Registered: 12-10-2002
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: frustrated
|
|
Chloramin-B
I stumbled over a fragment where was mentioned theat benzene can be made very easily from Chloramin-B (B stands for the benzenering).
Formula: C6H5SO2NNaCl
By heating (if a catalyst has to be present wasn´t mentioned, a fragment, as told...)
As Chloramin-B is readily available for water desinfection this could be a very interesting way to benzene so it works.
|
|
|
jimwig
Hazard to Others
Posts: 215
Registered: 17-5-2003
Location: the sunny south
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
threads
I was searching some time back and came up with these sites- the temperature seems to be the stumbling block.
http://www.orica.com/resource/chemfact/pdffiles/benzene.pdf
http://web.mit.edu/10.551/www/Archives/Project97.1.pdf
Is this do-able?
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
..
14 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
