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Lambda-Eyde
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>>> https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=20...
This just in: 95,5 % of the world population lives outside the USA
Please drop by our IRC channel: #sciencemadness @ irc.efnet.org
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Little_Ghost_again
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Ok one last try at this and will put basically.
There is no power required in the terms of electric, this isnt new or dosnt break any thermo laws, think solar................
How the cells themselves work is by using the same type of material found in a transistor, P and N type materials in a PNP or NPN transistor.
All that happens is electrons move from one side to the other in the presence of a temperature gradient.
So your power is there in the form of electrons, they move from N to P (actually it might be the other way I cant remember at the mo), anyway they
move from one side to the other. as they move they take latent energy (heat) with them.
So in doing this they can produce power, solar uses light to do this, peltier cells can do it using heat.
Most people actualy apply a current to the cell to make them heat one side or cool the other, but you can do it by heat and a difference in tempreture
and create a current.
watch this for a better explanation, my fridge just uses two cells back to back and linear technology chip to manage the harvesting and bump the power
up with joule thief like circuit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aSPopIcKLQ
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Oscilllator
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The way I understand your device, you have a temperature difference between the outside and inside of the fridge. You use this temperature difference
to generate electricity, which you then use to power another peltier cell and create an even greater temperature difference. This is analogous to
using a motor to run a generator that powers itself, and is impossible.
The problem is your device has no power input; it just runs by itself. Solar cells have a power input of sunlight. If you remove the sunlight, the
power stops. Peltier cells have a power source of heat. Remove the heat source, the power stops. This is the key difference here that makes your
device impossible.
The specific law of thermodynamics you appear to have violated is the second one. You have gone from a homogenous system with a uniform temperature,
and created a temperature difference. This is impossible UNLESS you input some kind of energy in the form of light, electricity or heat.
With regards to the power source being electrons, they are not. Electrons can convey power, but they are not a source in and of themselves. In the
same way when I throw a ball across the room and hit somebody, I have transferred energy to them but the source of the energy is not the ball, it's
me.
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ziqquratu
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Regarding diazomethane:
Quote: Originally posted by CuReUS  | but because of its explosive nature,no one will ship it to you(it might blow up during transportation ) ,and synthesizing it is a pain(you need to use a special distillation kit from Sigma-aldrich because diazomethane
can explode if you use normal ground glass joints so chemists make it in big
batches once and for all and store it in the frigde
and you cant deny the fact that it is the best alkylating agent around
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"Best" in terms of reactivity - maybe. But "best", factoring in convenience and safety? Hmmm... Besides, you can easily use regular, cheap glassware
to generate diazomethane as required - just not stuff with ground joints. Diazomethane WAS prepared - safely! - before Aldrich started selling kits,
you know! Not relevant to this thread, though, and I think I've posted the procedure we used to use on the forum in the past anyway, if you're
interested.
| Quote: Originally posted by CuReUS | in today's fridge,the defrosting is automatic,which means the compressor "switches" on and off every 12 hours.now you cant take the compressor out,can
you
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The compressor of every fridge I've ever seen IS on the outside - otherwise it'd be trying to cool itself as well as the other contents of the fridge!
Trust me, a regular fridge can be made flammable safe - been there, done that. It's only things inside the actual refrigerated compartment that need
to be sparkless - in most cases, the light and the thermostat are the only things that need moving outside.
| Quote: Originally posted by CuReUS | the coils act as a heat sink.what that means is that the coolant absorbs heat from whatever you store in the fridge,dumps it into the heat sink and in
the process becomes cooler so that it can absorb heat again and the cycle can be repeated.the heat sink in turn dumps it into the atmosphere and it
has to do that fast,or you might just wait for winter to keep things cool .hence
a good conductor like aluminium,before they used copper but copper is expensive and will increase the weight of the fridge(copper is more dense that
aluminum,thats why overhead cables and high tension wires are made of aluminum
covering it with epoxy will decrease its ability to lose the heat to the atmosphere |
Yes, it certainly would decrease heat transfer - but by how much? Given a lab fridge is opened only rarely, meaning heat loss is less of an issue,
would it matter? This I don't know the answer to.
| Quote: Originally posted by CuReUS | | but wont the aluminum be already covered with an oxide layer,and isnt that oxide layer resistant to even conc nitric acid(thats why nitric acid is
transported in aluminum tanks) |
Aluminium oxide is perfectly happy to react with (most?) mineral acids, just like aluminium itself.
Yeah, everyone wants to get around that one... 
[Edited on 10-10-2014 by ziqquratu]
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Little_Ghost_again
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| Quote: Originally posted by Oscilllator | The way I understand your device, you have a temperature difference between the outside and inside of the fridge. You use this temperature difference
to generate electricity, which you then use to power another peltier cell and create an even greater temperature difference. This is analogous to
using a motor to run a generator that powers itself, and is impossible.
The problem is your device has no power input; it just runs by itself. Solar cells have a power input of sunlight. If you remove the sunlight, the
power stops. Peltier cells have a power source of heat. Remove the heat source, the power stops. This is the key difference here that makes your
device impossible.
The specific law of thermodynamics you appear to have violated is the second one. You have gone from a homogenous system with a uniform temperature,
and created a temperature difference. This is impossible UNLESS you input some kind of energy in the form of light, electricity or heat.
With regards to the power source being electrons, they are not. Electrons can convey power, but they are not a source in and of themselves. In the
same way when I throw a ball across the room and hit somebody, I have transferred energy to them but the source of the energy is not the ball, it's
me.
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NO NO NO NO
I DO NOT power the cells at all! I use the power produced by both cells to simply drive a jouel thief type circuit that goes to a fan, the fan just
helps get rid of the heat on the last cell in the stack, it simply makes it a little more efficient.
The more heat you draw away from the hotist plate the colder the coldest plate get.
Look at the video link its a legit electronics blog.
No magic or thermo laws broken.
You dont power any of the cells in fact you have to use the power they produce to keep the electrons flowing.
Search you tube and look for the weurth elektronica energy harvesting kit, or the linear technology stuff, search with key word TEG or thermo electric
generator.
The idea is to generate small amounts of current with heat difference, use that current to light a led or run a small fan it dosnt matter, but using
the power keeps the electrons flowing therfore one plate gets warm and one gets cold.
I cant believe you make this seem so hard!!
Tell you what I will got get the links, these are major companies and well known in electronic circles
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Little_Ghost_again
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Right this kind of explains it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhynSkFlJOs
the side he heats you put in the fridge, the side he dosnt heat you add a large heat sunk too, simples. the side he is heating will take ANY heat from
1C up and pass it to the other side, as long as you use a heat sink to get rid of this heat it will keep going, you use the current produced so the
electrons are used up and keep flowing, I just added another cell on top to make the whole thing a bit more efficient.
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Little_Ghost_again
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GRRR if I get £6 soon I will buy a couple more to show you, when you buy them and leave them in a room for a day unconnected to anything, you find
one side hotter than room temp and one side cooler than room temp, they never equal room temperature on the plates. its this principle I use to cool a
box
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Oscilllator
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Little_Ghost I understand perfectly how these cells work, that's not the problem. The problem is that as you keep saying:
If you leave the cell in a room alone by itself I firmly believe that you will not find one side to be hotter or colder than the other. To create a
temperature difference, you must apply an an electric current, it's as simple as that. I think it would help if another member could weigh in on this
here, as it really is quite elementary.
I have just bought 4 "peltier thermoelectric coolers" from ebay for a total of $9.92 since this debate has sparked my interest in these devices. When
they arrive I will leave one alone in a room, and we shall see if a temperature difference develops!
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unionised
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I work for a lab that should really know better but a decade or so back we blew up a fridge.
It was used for storing urine samples after they had been extracted with ether - so they had ether in solution and perhaps a little of the liquid.
They were "sealed" with plastic film.
The ether vapour diffused out through the film, mixed with the air and was ignited - most probably by the thermostat.
After that cockup we decided that all the fridges on site would be sparkproof- even the ones for the milk in the tea room.
In many cases we simply bought new, sparkproof, fridges but in some cases we got someone to alter them to make them sparkproof. All they needed to do
was move the thermostat's switch outside the cold storage compartment of the fridge.
If I wanted a sparkproof fridge at home for storing chemicals, I'd use one of these sorts of things.
Brushless motor (and it's outside the "box" anyway to improve efficiency.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Coolbox-Electric-Warm-Cool-Box/dp/B0...
Littleghost seems to have missed the bit in that video where they supply energy to the peltier with a blowtorch.
It's easy to prove that you can't have a fridge that runs without some sort of power.
Imagine that I could get one- let's say it keeps the inside at 4C while the outside is at 20 C
I can get some chloroethane and put it outside the fridge where it will boil.
(the boiling point is 12 C or there abouts. I can use the vapour it produces to run a small turbine and I can connect that turbine to a generator to
make electricity.
Then I can take the vapour through a tube in the fridge and cool it so it condenses back to a liquid.
I can feed that liquid back into the boiler (outside the fridge) and have it circulate- with a bit of clever design, I can use gravity to make the
dense liquid flow back into the boiler.
Great! free electricity.
But, we know that's impossible- due to the laws of thermodynamics.
So we know the fridge can't work
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Little_Ghost_again
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| Quote: Originally posted by Oscilllator | Little_Ghost I understand perfectly how these cells work, that's not the problem. The problem is that as you keep saying:
If you leave the cell in a room alone by itself I firmly believe that you will not find one side to be hotter or colder than the other. To create a
temperature difference, you must apply an an electric current, it's as simple as that. I think it would help if another member could weigh in on this
here, as it really is quite elementary.
I have just bought 4 "peltier thermoelectric coolers" from ebay for a total of $9.92 since this debate has sparked my interest in these devices. When
they arrive I will leave one alone in a room, and we shall see if a temperature difference develops! |
Make sure you have a decent heat sink on one side, as you say you need a temperature difference, put the heat sink on the warm side.
Seriously this isnt magic or breaking and laws of physics. It a simple move of electrons from a P type material to a N type material, as long as one
side is at a different temperature it works, the greater the difference the better, but if you leave in a room with a heat sink on you will find one
side slighly colder than the other.
They use them for wood burning stoves as well, they have a fan on a all metal stand with a cell on the bottom, it gets hot and drives the fan this
blows warm air into the room.
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Little_Ghost_again
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Forgot to add google thermal electric generator and energy harvesting, look at link from linear technology and weurth elektronica, both huge and
reliable companies.
They have loads of info on using TEGs.
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unionised
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What you are proposing is like connecting the shafts of a generator and a motor together and connecting the wires so the generator feeds the motor
then hoping it will make electricity.
A wood burning stove provides energy to maintain the temperature gradient.
TEG work just fine, but you can't use one to power itself any more than you can pick yourself up by your bootlaces.
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CuReUS
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the only way to end this debate is this-
little ghost ,i have great respect for you as i have read your previous posts
please be a gentleman and post some picture of your setup or atleast upload a blueprint or something
SeReOUSLi -this discussion is going nowhere and this isnt even a physics forum
[Edited on 13-10-2014 by CuReUS]
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Little_Ghost_again
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| Quote: Originally posted by CuReUS | the only way to end this debate is this-
little ghost ,i have great respect for you as i have read your previous posts
please be a gentleman and post some picture of your setup or atleast upload a blueprint or something
SeReOUSLi -this discussion is going nowhere and this isnt even a physics forum
[Edited on 13-10-2014 by CuReUS] |
I am trying to sort pics out, I havnt posted pics for a little bit because the reader on the laptop isnt recognizing the camera card!!
But I totally agree with you, Ihave read all my posts in this thread and none of them put across what I am trying to say or describe! Its utterly
frustrating for me and yes pictures will sort it out.
Trust me its gonna be a face palm moment when you see it and say "why didnt you just say X Y Z) (face palm for me).
The only other thing I can to add before I can get pics working again is the following.
It was mentioned in a post above that I didnt say about the guy using a blow torch.
Thats important because the point is he used a blow torch to get more power (obviously he put more energy in so more out).
The way the fridge thing works is really simple, take the blow torch thing, the idea isnt to produce electric energy, the idea is to make sure that
any current however small is used (in the fan coil even if it isnt enough to move the fan).
If you were to put the outside of the cells against a radiator then the other side of the side gets cooler. In a way the current is a by product and
not of much relevance to the fridge, except if you dont use it the whole thing reaches stale mate quicker.
Right I have reached the point if I continue it will confuse more, so maybe this will help sum it up.
Simple heat pump? thats the principle, no its not rapid cooling no it dosnt always make the fan spin (it does on my fish lights but they produce alot
of heat therefore.
more energy).
I am anxious to get you pics as my explanation is utter crap, I am really sorry I cant express myself properly with this, to be honest its a utter
shambles
LG
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hyfalcon
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This doesn't violate any thermodynamic law. He's using a heat source to stimulate the system, thus, energy in.
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CuReUS
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| Quote: | | I am trying to sort pics out, I havnt posted pics for a little bit because the reader on the laptop isnt recognizing the camera card!!
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really ,i thought a tech savy person like you must have a camera with an USB cable atleast
also now you are telling that you keep the cells next to a radiator(oscillator,i hope you are reading this)
a picture speaks a thousand words
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Little_Ghost_again
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| Quote: Originally posted by CuReUS | | Quote: | | I am trying to sort pics out, I havnt posted pics for a little bit because the reader on the laptop isnt recognizing the camera card!!
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really ,i thought a tech savy person like you must have a camera with an USB cable atleast
also now you are telling that you keep the cells next to a radiator(oscillator,i hope you are reading this)
a picture speaks a thousand words |
A tech savy person like me would have a camera with a cable,but a tech savey 14 year old kid dosnt have the money for a camera, so said kid borrows
dads Nikon D7000 which while it did have a cable is somewhere I havnt a clue! its also not a standard cable, so tech savy kid stuck with taking sd out
of camera when he can sneak said camera out of the draw!
NO
I said or hinted that putting it by a radiator makes it work better, i was trying to help described the principle!
I already said right at the start that the better the temp difference the better it works.
I have found the weurth kit as well so will take pic of that. The teg has a heat sink one side and the moment you take the board out the box one side
is definitely colder than the other.
I dont get why you think it breaks thermo laws??? all it does is move heat from side to other, it does it better though if you use the electrons up as
it does it.
I now cant for the life of me remember which side is which, but one is N type material and one doped P type, little electrons move from one to the
other depending on a difference in tempreture, simples. No magic no broken rules, used a great deal for energy harvesting and powering micro
controllers like energy micro Gecko's (one comes in the kit), you switch the jumpers put your hand on one side of the teg and the LCD comes alive and
gives you the time or something.
LG
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Little_Ghost_again
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I have been lent one of the weurth energy harvesting kits!!! Hopefully I can get the camera sorted as it can video as well, that way apart from my own
set up, you can see exactly what I been banging on about.
When I get it I will take it out the box leave 10 mins and take the temperature both sides (unconnected from the micro board).
There will be a temperature difference for sure as one side has a simple small heat sink, then on video I will place my hand on the side without the
heat sink and connect the micro board, this should spring to life, but more importantly keep watching the thermometers, the side with the heat sink
will warm up as the side with my hand tries to get rid of the heat.
And that is precisely how my fridge works.
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Oscilllator
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I look forward to the results of this experiment. I to will conduct many experiments when my peltier cells arrive.
To be clear, the energy harvesting part of the kit is just a peltier cell with a heat sink on one side, and it will develop a temperature difference
on its own without you providing any power input?
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Little_Ghost_again
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| Quote: Originally posted by Oscilllator | I look forward to the results of this experiment. I to will conduct many experiments when my peltier cells arrive.
To be clear, the energy harvesting part of the kit is just a peltier cell with a heat sink on one side, and it will develop a temperature difference
on its own without you providing any power input? |
Right for clarity
http://www.we-online.com/web/en/electronic_components/produk...
This is the kit, inside is a few different ways to power the micro board, you choose which by way of jumpers on the harvesting board.
If you put the jumper to the TEG (peltier cell or whatever you want to call it) then you find the side with the heat sink on is warmer than the side
without.
Wether or not the micro board springs to life depends on the amount of current, this depends on heat, so a warm room you are likely to get it to work
a cold room unlikely, you need some heat in some form to produce power to reach a level that the harvesting board can power the micro board.
But that is not the point is it???
The point of the whole thing is to prove that with a heat sink and two cells back to back you get a much colder side and a warmer side.
In this instance because its only one cell I expect to see less cooling but still a couple of degrees difference between the hot side and cold side.
I cant remember which way round it goes but one side will try and take the heat via its plate and pass to the other side.
So as my house is around 15c I doubt its enough to power the board but all we need is one side colder than the other and point proved
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Little_Ghost_again
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Incase anyone wants one of the kits DONT!!! They are not worth the money! There is a better board now by linear tech and the rest of the stuff you can
pick up cheap, I am borrowing this kit from a center I know.
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zenosx
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More importantly ,, who got to clean up all of the hot piss! LOL
| Quote: Originally posted by unionised | I work for a lab that should really know better but a decade or so back we blew up a fridge.
It was used for storing urine samples after they had been extracted with ether - so they had ether in solution and perhaps a little of the liquid.
They were "sealed" with plastic film.
The ether vapour diffused out through the film, mixed with the air and was ignited - most probably by the thermostat.
After that cockup we decided that all the fridges on site would be sparkproof- even the ones for the milk in the tea room.
In many cases we simply bought new, sparkproof, fridges but in some cases we got someone to alter them to make them sparkproof. All they needed to do
was move the thermostat's switch outside the cold storage compartment of the fridge.
If I wanted a sparkproof fridge at home for storing chemicals, I'd use one of these sorts of things.
Brushless motor (and it's outside the "box" anyway to improve efficiency.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Coolbox-Electric-Warm-Cool-Box/dp/B0...
Littleghost seems to have missed the bit in that video where they supply energy to the peltier with a blowtorch.
It's easy to prove that you can't have a fridge that runs without some sort of power.
Imagine that I could get one- let's say it keeps the inside at 4C while the outside is at 20 C
I can get some chloroethane and put it outside the fridge where it will boil.
(the boiling point is 12 C or there abouts. I can use the vapour it produces to run a small turbine and I can connect that turbine to a generator to
make electricity.
Then I can take the vapour through a tube in the fridge and cool it so it condenses back to a liquid.
I can feed that liquid back into the boiler (outside the fridge) and have it circulate- with a bit of clever design, I can use gravity to make the
dense liquid flow back into the boiler.
Great! free electricity.
But, we know that's impossible- due to the laws of thermodynamics.
So we know the fridge can't work
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[Edited on 20-10-2014 by zenosx]
A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy?
Albert Einstein
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zenosx
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I also want to see the setup because I also see several violations here. Simply putting a peltier to a peltier will not generate the equivalent of
perpetual motion as that violates all kinds of physical laws. Energy comes from somewhere, even if it's just temperature fluctuations in the room,
however I can't see these being big enough to create enough current to power something like this... I suppose I am also confused....
| Quote: Originally posted by Oscilllator | Little_Ghost I understand perfectly how these cells work, that's not the problem. The problem is that as you keep saying:
If you leave the cell in a room alone by itself I firmly believe that you will not find one side to be hotter or colder than the other. To create a
temperature difference, you must apply an an electric current, it's as simple as that. I think it would help if another member could weigh in on this
here, as it really is quite elementary.
I have just bought 4 "peltier thermoelectric coolers" from ebay for a total of $9.92 since this debate has sparked my interest in these devices. When
they arrive I will leave one alone in a room, and we shall see if a temperature difference develops! |
A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy?
Albert Einstein
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unionised
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| Quote: Originally posted by zenosx | More importantly ,, who got to clean up all of the hot piss! LOL
| Quote: Originally posted by unionised | I work for a lab that should really know better but a decade or so back we blew up a fridge.
It was used for storing urine samples after they had been extracted with ether - so they had ether in solution and perhaps a little of the liquid.
They were "sealed" with plastic film.
The ether vapour diffused out through the film, mixed with the air and was ignited - most probably by the thermostat.
After that cockup we decided that all the fridges on site would be sparkproof- even the ones for the milk in the tea room.
In many cases we simply bought new, sparkproof, fridges but in some cases we got someone to alter them to make them sparkproof. All they needed to do
was move the thermostat's switch outside the cold storage compartment of the fridge.
If I wanted a sparkproof fridge at home for storing chemicals, I'd use one of these sorts of things.
Brushless motor (and it's outside the "box" anyway to improve efficiency.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Coolbox-Electric-Warm-Cool-Box/dp/B0...
Littleghost seems to have missed the bit in that video where they supply energy to the peltier with a blowtorch.
It's easy to prove that you can't have a fridge that runs without some sort of power.
Imagine that I could get one- let's say it keeps the inside at 4C while the outside is at 20 C
I can get some chloroethane and put it outside the fridge where it will boil.
(the boiling point is 12 C or there abouts. I can use the vapour it produces to run a small turbine and I can connect that turbine to a generator to
make electricity.
Then I can take the vapour through a tube in the fridge and cool it so it condenses back to a liquid.
I can feed that liquid back into the boiler (outside the fridge) and have it circulate- with a bit of clever design, I can use gravity to make the
dense liquid flow back into the boiler.
Great! free electricity.
But, we know that's impossible- due to the laws of thermodynamics.
So we know the fridge can't work
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[Edited on 20-10-2014 by zenosx] |
Perhaps I should have mentioned that the explosion blew the door off the fridge and dug a hole in the wall opposite. If anyone had been in the way
they would have been seriously injured or killed.
However the sample were probably largely unaffected by the incident.
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CuReUS
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| Quote: Originally posted by unionised |
Perhaps I should have mentioned that the explosion blew the door off the fridge and dug a hole in the wall opposite. If anyone had been in the way
they would have been seriously injured or killed.
However the sample were probably largely unaffected by the incident. |
the same thing happened with diazomethane,the door blew off and got embedded in the opposite wall 20 metres away
chemical coincidence dont you think
maybe its genetic ,who knows
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