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woelen
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@Brain&Force: For the time being this is not (yet) an issue. I am looking into how to continue. The purchase of the chemicals will be forbidden
from Sept. 2014, the making, possession, and use of the chemicals will be forbidden from March 2016. It is the latter which worries me the most. After
that data I _may_ have to remove some experiments from my website, but that would be a very sad thing to do.
It is a weird and utterly sad thing. Simply having certain scientific experiments on your website may lead to problems in the near future. For me,
however, it is not worth the potential problems. I have a family, a job and associated responsibilities and I do not want others to get involved in
trouble because of my interests.
[Edited on 15-8-14 by woelen]
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strontiumred
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It would be a great shame if you took down your website Woelen, as it has provided a great deal of inspiration for many on here, but I do understand
you not wanting to get into trouble further down the line. There is such a lot of content on your site that would not be risky that you could
probably keep.
When I started my website I decided to concentrate only on transition metal chemistry for exactly the same reason, that the laws were about to change
in the EU.
I've never been into energetics, so luckily most of the changes will only have a limited effect on me.
Best Wishes,
SR.
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phlogiston
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Woelen, perhaps a possible solution to maintain your current content would be to include a very clear statement that these experiments were performed
before the new regulations became effective?
It would be tragic. You have published such a diverse and great set of very interesting experiments and skilled observations, and the quality and
attention to detail of much of it exceeds that of work done in many university labs (they just have infinately bettter access to resources).
The terrible dillema wheter it would be worthwhile/possible within legal limits to continue experiments at all remains, ofcourse. It felt very similar
when I gave up pyrotechnic experiments many years ago for similar reasons, (started a family, and essentially the joy I got from it did not balance
against the ever increasingly worse legal consequences of getting in trouble). I disposed of all of the related chemicals and equipment that took many
years to acquire, and that hurt. I found sufficiently interesting science/chemistry-related pursuits that are legal. With the new limitations, some of
those things become impossible too if one tries to stay within legal limits, even if they are perfectly harmless and not even chemistry-related but
hard to do without certain chemicals (eg. decapping ICs).
I fear that once lost, it will be essentially impossible to ever regain freedoms. Regulations hardly ever loosen.
I guess most of us have always expected regulations to worsen, but this is a sudden step of surprising magnitude in the wrong direction.
[Edited on 20-8-2014 by phlogiston]
[Edited on 20-8-2014 by phlogiston]
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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Pyro
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a way around it, to still be able to post results would be to put in a disclaimer:
''the following is a theoretical experiment, all chemicals have been substituted''
here is a potential profit for those willing to risk it, selling banned reagents.
the sad thing is that most of us could make a bomb without the banned substances if we wanted. this ban just makes legit. chemistry harder.
all above information is intellectual property of Pyro.  |
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phlogiston
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Contrary to popular opinion here, it seeems at least, I suspect it will be somewhat effective against some individuals trying to obtain materials for
less than commendable purposes. I don't think people acting alone with little chemical knowledge have that many channels available to them (that they
are aware of).
However, inventive/creative/determined individuals or groups with the right network will not be stopped by simple measures like this.
Alas, our opinion probably matters little at this point. Does anyone have any idea how we might approach regaining some freedom in the long run. Who
do we influence and how?
[Edited on 20-8-2014 by phlogiston]
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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woelen
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I have been looking around about the regulations on what effect it has on other home chemists, what people are doing with their published results and
so on. I could not find anything else about this. Apparently very few people are worried about this effect of the regulations.
What I did find, surprisingly, is an amazingly large number of sellers, who sell 53 ... 69% HNO3, 96% H2SO4, 50% H2O2 online simply as cleaning stuff,
together with Ecostyle products and other OTC products. I tried one of these sellers near where I live and I could buy 50% H2O2 without any questions
asked, as easy as buying a liter of dishwashing soap. Its intended use is as cleaner for streets, concrete tiles and that kind of things, removing
algae and other green/black crap in an environmentally friendly way (H2O2 has a very short half life in nature and decomposes to harmless water and
oxygen).
I bought a liter of this, just to try how easy it is to buy this and it is useful anyway: http://www.werkenmetmerken.nl/nl/waterstofperoxide_50_/p/731...
No questions at all, no paperwork, just pick it up, pay and go. So, I now have 50% H2O2 and will see what experiments I can do with that. Shipping it
to your home is possible as well for EUR 6 or so, even free shipping if your total order is above EUR 50.
This same company also has all mineral acids (nitric, hydrochloric, sulphuric, phosphoric and a few organic ones), it has some bases and some other
chemicals like KMnO4, all as OTC products.
There is not one such a company, but quite a few, another one is this: http://deoplosmiddelspecialist.nl/
Furthermore, I have seen numerous occasions of companies selling pure acetone, 53% HNO3, 96% H2SO4 and 30% H2O2. Companies like drogist.nl,
weegschaal.nl, accense.nl, which are aimed at health products, lifestyle and outdoor living. They have annex 1 and annex 2 chemicals in their range of
products at high concentrations.
This is striking, especially with the upcoming regulations in mind. I never knew that there are so many companies, selling this kind of chemicals.
Shipping of these chemicals also is no problem, they can be shipped for EUR 7 or so. I have the impression that many of these companies do not even
know that they have dangerous goods in their product line.
[Edited on 21-8-14 by woelen]
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IrC
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Woelen,
Many suppliers may be lax in order to get rid of their inventories before the law goes into effect as they know they will lose most of their customer
base. They may lower prices for the same reason. I do not understand why you feel you need to dump your website or drastically reduce it over these
laws. Unless you fear it will make them go inspect your lab and find things they do not like which before this law were perfectly fine. If you have
already removed the newly outlawed items before the laws take effect what difference can it make? Are you saying that censorship of knowledge is going
to be part of these new laws? Or that the mere presence of your experiments online using newly outlawed chemicals will somehow make you be held
accountable for others doing experiments who refuse to obey the law? If this is the case I would call that a bridge too far.
If so maybe you should copy the entire site now and sell CD's (or DVD's if too large) here on SCM. I have studied many experiments on your site and
copying the entire site before it vanishes is something I do not have enough time to do. If your going to delete much of it at least give warning so I
can copy some of the more interesting work you have done for my own local offline reference. You have created far too much very interesting and useful
knowledge for it to be wasted. At the very least see if Polverone can host it here where it remains legal. Something like : sciencemadness.org/woelen/
?
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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phlogiston
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I noticed that on that 50% hydrogen peroxide product page (at www.werkenmetmerken.nl), In the corner where it says 'customers also looked at', it lists acetone. Apparently the combination is often looked at.
I am not sure whether that combination of products makes sense for any purpose other than the most obvious one (to us).
But indeed, it used to be difficult to buy but for a few years it has been possible to buy nitric acid OTC in many places here in the Netherlands. I
know at least 3 very basic drug stores nearby that sell 53% nitric acid. One has it in stock, the other 2 order it upon request, no questions asked. I
will try this week if they still sell it, curious whether they will warn me of the upcoming regulations.
[Edited on 22-8-2014 by phlogiston]
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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woelen
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If I were you, I would not start talking yourself about these regulations. That may trigger them to have a close look at the chemicals and may lead to
loss of such OTC sources. But it is interesting to see whether they themselves start talking about these regulations. I have the impression that many
sellers do not know of these regulations at all. Only the real chemical warehouses probably know about them, but the gardening stores, lifestyle
stores and so on have other things at their mind at the moment with declining sales, due to the economical recession.
I also noticed that acetone is looked at in combination with H2O2 35% and H2O2 50%. I also checked the pages for ethanol, MEK, isopropyl alcohol, but
none of these pages refer to the pages about acetone. I would expect such connections more, because all of these are solvents and acetone also is. So,
indeed, k3wls and maybe even worse people who really want to make bombs apparently also find this kind of pages and that is worrying.
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woelen
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Quote: Originally posted by IrC  | | [...] I do not understand why you feel you need to dump your website or drastically reduce it over these laws. Unless you fear it will make them go
inspect your lab and find things they do not like which before this law were perfectly fine. If you have already removed the newly outlawed items
before the laws take effect what difference can it make?[...] |
This is exactly the reason why I may have to
remove the experiments from my website. I have quite a few chemicals in my lab, which at the moment are perfectly fine (e.g. HNO3, homemade chlorates,
perchlorates, H2O2, CH3NO2) but which will be forbidden (even to posses) at March 2016. So, if I have experiments on my website, using these
chemicals, then of course the law enforcement people can draw their conclusion that I (still) have these chemicals and if they decide to inspect my
lab and find these chemicals, then I may have big trouble. Possession of these chemicals is considered a criminal offense and will lead to a so-called
criminal record, which may lead to loss of your job and other limitations in daily life. In the Netherlands you really are socially handicapped if you
have a criminal record, and that is something which I certainly do not want to have.
Another option would be to get rid of these specific Annex I chemicals before March 2016 and if they inspect my lab, then they will not find anything
illegal. Up to now I never feared officials and I even have had a journalist have a look into my lab a few years ago, and I told openly about what I
did. This was quite fascinating. This also is what makes me most sad. People who do nothing illegal and have done so for many years suddenly are
considered criminals if they continue doing what they did years before. Doing scientific research and experiments, even if done safely and responsibly
at microscale without any risk for the environment and people around you, can be a criminal offense with the new upcoming laws 
I am not yet sure what I will do. I still have some time to think it over . . .
[Edited on 22-8-14 by woelen]
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Texium
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| Quote: Originally posted by woelen | | I even have had a journalist have a look into my lab a few years ago, and I told openly about what I did. This was quite fascinating.
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That's interesting, did they publish anything about you?
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woelen
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Yes, they recorded for dutch radio (Wereldomroep, which means World Channel). They made a series about people having non-standard interests, and they
chose to add a home chemist to this series as well. It was a honest series of radio programs, not the usual sensation seeking or mythbuster-like
stuff. My contribution was a short item where I told something about my hobby, why I am interested and what kind of things I do. We even recorded
sounds like pouring a liquid from one beaker to another, sound of pieces of glassware touching each other, and I told something about cobalt chemistry
(the peculiar changes of color of Co(OH)2 from blue to pink: http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/solutions/co.html ) and that this kind of things fascinates me and that I like to investigate it and
also want to understand why such things occur. I also demonstrated some nice reactions to the person who interviewed me (including the formation and
change of color of Co(OH)2) and this person was interested and liked it. These demos of course could not make it into the program, because it was
radio.
So, there fortunately are people who are interested and do not think of bombs or drugs when they hear about home chemistry. Unfortunately, the new
upcoming laws in the EU also make part of this kind of truly scientifically driven home chemistry illegal.
[Edited on 22-8-14 by woelen]
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Pyro
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I don't think they will have an eye on you Woelen, it's not like you are stockpiling kg's of those things and using them to make bombs. your website
is a testament to that as you clearly explain what is happening, how, why,...
I don't know about in NE, but over here cops are pretty cool about things. They are reasonable, understanding and have plenty of common sense.
all above information is intellectual property of Pyro. |
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phlogiston
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Dutch cops are generally reasonable and trustworthy, and it is completely obvious (to us) that someone like woelen presents no harm to society but
'rules are rules'.
I think he is right to be careful and not hope to be exempt from regulations/receive special treatment even if all the available evidence supports the
view that he wouldn't harm a fly.
[Edited on 23-8-2014 by phlogiston]
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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IrC
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| Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston | Dutch cops are generally reasonable and trustworthy, and it is completely obvious (to us) that someone like woelen presents no harm to society but
'rules are rules'.
I think he is right to be careful and not hope to be exempt from regulations/receive special treatment even if all the available evidence supports the
view that he wouldn't harm a fly. |
"'rules are rules'?" Who makes these rules? Why? Over terrorism? Are we supposed to believe the combined governments in Europe could not join together
and wipe out a few thousand murderers? They do not want to. Why? Because it gives them perfect justification to keep their citizens under tyrannical
rule. How can I conclude this you may ask? A - study of the history of Europe, happens over and over. It's happening again. B - I repeat "Are we
supposed to believe the combined governments in Europe could not join together and wipe out a few thousand murderers?", which would allow citizens by
the multiple millions live in peace, without fear again. Allow the youth to experiment in science without all the laws forcing chemistry students
either underground, into jails, or into serving hamburgers for a living. Or whatever it is you eat over there. Yes it's happening here as well don't
think I am unaware of it. Yes Polverone this post is on topic since I am discussing the prime motivation behind governments of the world outlawing the
name of this site, 'mad science', amateur science if you will. I wondered why woelen was so concerned with his site in 3 years so I went out studying
and found this.
"Home secretary Theresa May said she was preparing new laws to tackle Islamist militants at home and to stop them going abroad to fight, adding that
Britain faced a long struggle against a “deadly extremist ideology”.
We will be engaged in this struggle for many years, probably decades. We must give ourselves all the legal powers we need to prevail,” May wrote in
the Daily Telegraph newspaper.
While details are yet to be confirmed, Ms May said the new powers would be designed to restrict the militants’ behavior, ban involvement in groups
preaching violence and require prisons, broadcasters, schools and universities to take a greater role in combating the radicalization of Muslims.
In other words, the British government will decide what is appropriate behavior, what groups Britons may join, what can be broadcast over the media
and discussed in schools and universities.
The proposed law will augment Britain’s Section 44 Terrorism Act. It allows police to decide who is a terrorist and grants them the authority to
search and detain citizens. The law is used on a regular basis against peaceful and lawful protesters.
Britain has enacted a number of successively restrictive laws. In 2000, before the 9/11 attacks in America and the July, 2005 attacks in London, the
UK passed the Terrorism Act 2000 which makes it an offense to collect or possess information likely to be used by a
terrorist."
The part I highlighted in red applies indirectly to woelen based upon the tendency for nations in the EU to eventually pass similar laws. Coming soon
to us here I have no doubt. Am I wrong to assume therefore the section in red makes a large percentage of all the threads on this site in violation of
law? That merely studying energetics for example, or any chemistry which could cause harm in certain circumstances. In effect if you own a chemistry
book or have downloaded threads from this or many other websites online you are in effect 'in possession of information which a terrorist could use'.
Am I wrong in concluding this?
Some of you think I am being too political for this thread but am I really? Does this not spell doom for every single citizen with an interest in and
love of learning science? Again I must ask why? Because terrorists exist? Our endeavors in science should condemn us to criminal prosecution because
and I must quote it again: "Are we supposed to believe the combined governments in Europe could not join together and wipe out a few thousand
murderers?"
Quoting Home secretary Theresa May "We will be engaged in this struggle for many years, probably decades. We must give ourselves all the legal powers
we need to prevail,” May wrote in the Daily Telegraph newspaper."
Must I say it yet again? "Are we supposed to believe the combined governments in Europe could not join together and wipe out
a few thousand murderers?"
If they did then all excuses for destroying our pursuit of science, of chemistry, would vanish forever would it not? Instead of taking decades during
which law abiding citizens must live under tyranny and have their few precious years of lifespan wasted while they are no longer allowed to
experiment, to invent, to build, to create, put on hold. Is political correctness the reason they do not go out and wipe out terrorism today instead
of 'taking decades'? Will you in your 80's then be allowed to go back to living in peace and happiness, resuming your pursuits of science? Trust me
I'm in my 60's and exposure to many not friendly elements has my health so shot I can barely do any work anymore. Let alone decades from now. An added
bonus would be hundreds of thousands of Christians and peaceful Muslims being slaughtered in the Middle East by ISIS right now could regain their
lives, return to their homes. Does anyone not believe these victims would turn and defend themselves if they saw ISIS on the run being pursued by a
global force? If they saw they had a chance to live? Crimes against humanity? One is the UN sitting idly by watching this all take place while doing
nothing.
Again Polverone, I am not off topic if one considers the fall out of this subject is the never ending encroaching of draconian laws against our
pursuit of science. While not one damn thing is being done to stop this global madness, everything is being done to criminalize us. The law abiding
citizens of the world who just so happen to prefer a night in the lab to a day at the beach.
I must conclude there is a reason they are not telling you for not going out in full force and mercilessly removing this threat globally to our safety
and freedom. Tyranny, the human propensity and love of having power and control over the populations of the world. Period. Proof you ask? I'll say it
one more time: "Are we supposed to believe the combined governments in Europe could not join together and wipe out a few
thousand murderers?". I will add to this my government in the U.S. Our governments could gather together the force required, the will required
to end this threat, this reason they are forcing us to either give up our science forever or to live as criminals when we have never been at any time
people anyone needs to worry about or live in fear of.
Because if they did then once again we could live peacefully, hobby stores would again carry the Testor lines of chemicals, supplies and glassware, we
could play with our science as I remember doing in the 50's and 60's.
After all is not their justification for these laws global terrorism? Then end it for all time. Let us go back to our laboratories creating new
advances and new generations of students with a love for the physical sciences.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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roXefeller
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| Quote: |
Are we supposed to believe the combined governments in Europe could not join together and wipe out a few thousand murderers? They do not want to. Why?
Because it gives them perfect justification to keep their citizens under tyrannical rule.
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While I agree that some leaders like to leverage against the criminal class to strip rights from those in the middle, like scissors, authoritarians
squeezing from the top even harder because they've enabled the criminals to push up from the bottom. "President ___ save us from these criminals that
you've enabled by releasing early from prison, giving guns, money..." However the notion that with one brisk strike all leaders could strike down the
murders has been tried. Australia, they rounded up the 'criminals' and dumped them far away from the 'peaceful' class, leaving the 'peaceful' class
to live in peace. This relies upon the assumption that the line between good and evil lies between people, this one good, that one evil. The reason
the Australia experiment didn't work is because that assumption is false, the line between good and evil lies somewhere down every one of us, me,
you, Rosco, everyone. Criminal policy needs to focus on keeping each of us on the good side of the line by punishing the behaviors that land on the
bad. Where did the current malcontents of Europe come from if they were all sent away to Australia? Did the penal residents swim back to Europe and
repopulate? Or the 'peaceful' class wasn't so peaceful and turned criminal. You can't fight criminality by giving away all your rights to an
authoritarian regime to fix things for you, then expect to receive those rights when all is done. That is well settled. Current criminal policy
debate tries to offer suggestions how you fight criminality knowing the previous assumption is false. And its a difficult question, leading to all
the different opinions.
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IrC
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I think your missing two very important things. One, if your right, then why do these laws never have delimiters which recognize a law abiding class
of citizens who love science. Laws stemming from the drug wars included. Why cannot I legally possess P among other elements due to my desire to
create new semiconducting and superconducting materials? For other experiments such as polarized plastics I included. They pass these laws giving no
'corner' for amateur science. They are outlawed across the board period. End of sentence. No room whatsoever, no consideration given to us. I defy all
to prove me wrong. Look at Texas idiotic glassware laws. Same thing. Considering amateur science, one must conclude few can afford big bucks for legal
permits, regulations, what have you. Look at all the laws. Not one is ever written with due consideration for lawful purposes. P, I, other chemicals,
all listed. We are individuals we have no lobbyists to represent us when these laws are written. We have no money, no voice for such things.
Second, I was not talking about eliminating the evil people within your borders. You have law enforcement for that. I was talking about a
multinational force going to the place where terrorists have their greatest numbers and wiping them out. Believe me if this was done the few scattered
in other countries would be far less emboldened to do harm when they had no support structure. In my opinion anyone wishing to have influence in these
matters whether politically or militarily, should be required to first master the concepts in a very old text. 'The Art of War'.
Something I am wondering about, what preconceived or subconscious notion generated this: "me, you, Rosco". 3 pages, Rosco has not said a word in this
thread. But what bothers me most is after careful consideration of your entire post roXefeller I am left with one unalterable conclusion. Complete
gibberish, all of it. No logical reasoning, no consideration of history nor reality. You are by implication assuming the globe is populated by quasi
Jekyl/Hydes only waiting for the throw of the dice for bad behavior to jump out. I am decades old. I have known nice decent kind people who were that
way when we played as toddlers and who remained that way until their death decades later, never once exhibiting 'bad behavior'. Sure they may have had
bad days but they had no inherent propensity for evil within their souls. If you are a religious person you may believe a demon could possess someone
making them instantly turn evil. I suppose you could say yes this possibly happens in reality. But I have to wonder if true what kind of person they
were to begin with making them open to said possession. While I do not believe a switch flips from Jekyl to Hyde or back if someone is inherently a
decent person (not insane whether openly or hidden to begin with), I do believe degeneration of a soul can occur if they subject themselves to
continued 'evil'. In effect I believe they can brainwash themselves for lack of better terms by immersing themselves continually in a world of
negative. They 'made themselves go bad'. I believe I see this all around me with this current up and coming generation. Remove decency, goodness,
morals completely from society and fill it with nothing but evil 24/7/365 and what is there to fill them but evil.
I have known SOB's as well. They were SOB'S as children and remained so all of their life. I can only conclude through life experience many are decent
every day of their lives, many were bad from day one. I have seen 'bad' people improve. I have seen fairly 'good' people go bad, often from some life
pressure which became more than they could cope with. I have never known any terrorists nor any who became so in their adult years. However from
experience I have learned any who would were seriously messed up in the head from a very young age. There was not some switch flipped. No doubt the
possibility exists, history likely bears this out, but I have never known any who did. I firmly believe for someone to listen to a religious leader
preaching hate and murder and this causes that one to go out killing, the propensity to be murderous existed within long before they acted it out in
reality. Long before they started listening to leaders preaching hate. In fact I can only conclude it is because that propensity for evil existed
within that they were drawn towards these voices for evil in the first place. I have never known a decent loving kind soul who would listen to such
insanity, they instantly reject it the moment it is encountered. Precisely because this tendency towards evil did not live within them from day one.
I bring all this up and dismiss your premise because you are in effect saying all dangerous chemicals must be outlawed because at any moment one of us
may suddenly 'flip out' and go on a mad rampage. Because the tendency of all of us is to be both good and evil which can flip at any moment. Or at
least you are trying to use this premise as justification for these draconian laws. I say bull crap to your premise. Do you think I would be afraid to
live near woelen while he possessed HNO3 higher than 60 percent because I should fear one day he may suddenly go mad? This is living in fear beyond my
understanding. To live in fear like this is to not live at all. I use woelen as example since he is the main voice in this thread and he stands to
lose the most from these new laws. In reality I suppose many are since no doubt his site is a great learning resource and would be a loss to many if
it is taken down because of these new laws.
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zts16, I'll answer your below comment here, as I do not wish to keep adding posts along lines driving the discussion in a direction other than on
topic. I only brought up what I did based upon my conclusion that if the war on terror is the reason governments are legislating away our ability to
work in science, removing this threat is the only hope we have left or we will be forced out of our endeavors forever. Assuming it is their only
motivation. However discussion along these lines only serves to go further off topic, unless one is trying to discover the reason for these new and
ever encroaching laws.
zts16 "I think when he was talking about how people can change and criminals can spring up out of peaceful societies he's referring to it in a more
broad, generational sense."
I do not think so based upon this comment:
roXefeller "The reason the Australia experiment didn't work is because that assumption is false, the line between good and evil lies somewhere down
every one of us, me, you, Rosco, everyone. Criminal policy needs to focus on keeping each of us on the good side of the line by punishing the
behaviors that land on the bad."
I must say this is I think one of the most absurd positions I have read on SCM. To begin with that assumption is NOT false. Australia may have started
as a penal colony centuries ago but it evolved into a great nation, in no way can one conclude the "Australia experiment didn't work". On the second
part no one who is intrinsically law abiding needs the law to keep them in line. People by their nature either live right or they do not. Do you
really think roXefeller that your neighbors are not axe murderers merely because they live in fear of the law? This is one twisted view of people, of
reality no matter how you look at it. Has it never occurred to you they are not attacking you simply because they intrinsically wish to live in peace
and have decent hearts, not because as you say they fear getting caught?
In fact this is not even possible and the crime rate in any city you care to study proves this. The law does not keep criminals from being such, it
merely attempts to catch and stop them whenever it can. Are some crimes not committed by persons who have this tendency but fear getting caught? I am
sure this is true but it in no way alters the fact that the premise you posted has no validity. Quite the opposite, your premise is completely
whacked. I can think of few better ways to state it. Society as a whole is not in the majority staying in line because the law forces them to. Rather,
by their free will the majority chooses to do right by their neighbors because this is the kind of people they are. In some possible survival
situation where society has broken down or during some event where a mob has devolved into some form of group insanity (the lynch mob), I could see
your premise as having some validity. However this is not what you were talking about. You were stating the law is the only reason everyone is not
evil all of the time. I vehemently disagree.
[Edited on 8-24-2014 by IrC]
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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Texium
Administrator
Posts: 4619
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
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Mood: PhD candidate!
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I think when he was talking about how people can change and criminals can spring up out of peaceful societies he's referring to it in a more broad,
generational sense. While I might not be a criminal, I would have no idea if perhaps generations onward one of my great-great-grandchildren would be
for whatever circumstances would lead them to be. Because there are always criminals repopulating in this manner, there is really no way to stop them
unless all causes of crime are completely eradicated, which will unfortunately never happen.
Also, the trying to wipe out terrorists where they're strongest thing sounds a lot like what America has been trying to do in vain for the past 13
years or however long it's been now. It's just not worth it. More lives lost, more destruction caused, really more terror caused than prevented.
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roXefeller
Hazard to Others
Posts: 463
Registered: 9-9-2013
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Mood: 220 221 whatever it takes
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I'll try to overlook your rudely worded rebut. But I will say that a poorly staged science experiment leaves only poor inferences. It sounds like
you are using observations from a small subset of humanity, during a small subset of the human condition, to make very large and almost absolute
inferences. You wouldn't do that in the lab.
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I bring all this up and dismiss your premise because you are in effect saying all dangerous chemicals must be outlawed because at any moment one of us
may suddenly 'flip out' and go on a mad rampage. Because the tendency of all of us is to be both good and evil which can flip at any moment. Or at
least you are trying to use this premise as justification for these draconian laws. I say bull crap to your premise. Do you think I would be afraid to
live near woelen while he possessed HNO3 higher than 60 percent because I should fear one day he may suddenly go mad? This is living in fear beyond my
understanding. To live in fear like this is to not live at all. I use woelen as example since he is the main voice in this thread and he stands to
lose the most from these new laws. In reality I suppose many are since no doubt his site is a great learning resource and would be a loss to many if
it is taken down because of these new laws.
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I'd like to defend this however because I wasn't saying that. Those who issue draconian laws aren't caring about the moral welfare of the subjects
(although there could be a few cases where this is false, such as the puritanical prohibition laws of the US). I refute draconian laws to force a
peaceful citizenry. It is obvious that many in the energetics forum perform somewhat illegal acts mainly because the explosives laws are too onerous
for the sake of saving a hundred people from the act of one terrorist. The terrorist is already doing something illegal, he doesn't care that he is
also ignoring manufacture of explosives law. I believe many SM members would be licensed if it wasn't a PITA to get it, most members don't want to be
outside of the law. I'm not positive how to correct this onerous law, but something along the lines of the concealed weapons permits might be better.
They are simple to obtain in most states of the US (some states are onerous though). And that simple act says alot about the holder's purpose.
Statistics show that those persons holding it are one of the safest, law-abiding subsets. Gun crimes are most often committed by non-permitees. I
suspect something similar would be helpful for the energetics community. I can speak from experience when I say it is very easy to acquire things on
the prohibited list when you have a explosives manufacturing license. I'm able to buy those restricted items easily because I am upfront about it.
My recent purchase of acetic anhydride, I was asked my intended use, I replied 'the manufacture of nitramines'. No problem. They even made some
calls to their delivery company to get the material to me with cheap shipping rates. That's how it is supposed to work. I wish the licensing
process wasn't so burdensome. I don't think highly of the EU regulations. I hope it isn't as bad as previous attempts to round up firearms with only
power grabs in mind:
Bureaucracies generally try to fix problems with more rules. And when those rules don't work, they apply more still. It is generally with good
intentions (aside from the above). But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I work for a US department, I've seen the dumb use of
rulemaking to fix problems. Brevity is the soul of wit, simple laws are probably better as well. “The greatest ideas are the simplest.”
“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” “Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated.”
[Edited on 24-8-2014 by roXefeller]
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Scr0t
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I now see that DCM, dichloroethane and toluene are no longer easily available under EU Regulation 552/2009 annex XVII.
Bastards!
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Loptr
International Hazard
Posts: 1348
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
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Mood: Grateful
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| Quote: Originally posted by Scr0t | I now see that DCM, dichloroethane and toluene are no longer easily available under EU Regulation 552/2009 annex XVII.
Bastards! |
So what do DCM and DCE have to do with explosives? Is it the solubility of nitric acid within them that allows you break the azeotrope the reason for
this?
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Scr0t
Hazard to Others
Posts: 118
Registered: 14-1-2012
Location: Europe
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Mood: Desiccated
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| Quote: Originally posted by Loptr |
So what do DCM and DCE have to do with explosives? Is it the solubility of nitric acid within them that allows you break the azeotrope the reason for
this? |
The title of of thread is about EU regulations that's why I posted this here.
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Loptr
International Hazard
Posts: 1348
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Grateful
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| Quote: Originally posted by Scr0t | | Quote: Originally posted by Loptr |
So what do DCM and DCE have to do with explosives? Is it the solubility of nitric acid within them that allows you break the azeotrope the reason for
this? |
The title of of thread is about EU regulations that's why I posted this here. |
I was asking why they are covered by the legislation, not question why you posted here. Sorry, I think I have the word "asshole" written across my
forehead, because you are the second person to think I was saying something other than what I intended to.
The legislation was about explosives, from my understanding, and I was curious what they had to do with them.
[Edited on 19-3-2015 by Loptr]
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Scr0t
Hazard to Others
Posts: 118
Registered: 14-1-2012
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: Desiccated
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Health, safety and environmental protection. One has to be a company or a professional and fill a declaration of use form.
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woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 8027
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
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I live in NL and DCM is no problem at all. It can be purchased at many places, no questions asked.
DCE is harder to get, but simply because it is much less common.
Toluene depends on the seller, it is not regulated by government. Some sellers don't sell it to ordinary citizens, others do.
The regulation, mentioned by scr0t is quite old already, it is from the second half of the 1990's and it is reformulated in 2009 in order to harmonize
it with REACH. It is especially geared towards regulating the use of harmful or potentially dangerous compounds in all kinds of consumer products.
Here follows the 2009 text:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELE...
Actually, I largely agree with this kind of regulation (e.g. cadmium compounds should not be used for coloring purposes of packaging materials or
toys, arsenic compounds should not be used for protecting wood, boat's hulls and that kind of things). This kind of regulation is of a very different
nature than the new upcoming regulation 2013/98 which is about explosives and is much wider, because that forbids not only consumer products but
totally forbids the possession and use of certain compounds by ordinary citizens.
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