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Brain&Force
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Talent show audition is tonight!
Here is the final list of demos:
Fake blood with thiocyanate
Coordination cocktails
Reduction of permanganate in acid and base
"Thunder flasks" (methanol in a 100 mL flask, methanol with copper chloride in a 1 L flask, methanol in a water cooler jug. Should I add copper
chloride to the water cooler jug?)
I didn't have either concentrated peroxide or thiosulfate for the iodine clock, so I can't do that one.
The copper chloride colors the flame green quite evenly in a 1 L flask. I have access to boric acid, but I like the color of copper salts better. I
also tried strontium nitrate, but this did not color the flame evenly. Interestingly, part of the flame was gray!
At the end of the day, simulating atoms doesn't beat working with the real things...
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Brain&Force
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Well, I got mixed results:
First of all, right off the bat, they wouldn't let me do the thunder flask demo on any scale. I'm doing this in the school auditorium (which is used
for most theater productions) and they couldn't have any open flames at all, even on the smallest scale. My chemistry teacher is trying to see if he
can do anything about it.
Second, it seemed to take too long to set up. It took about 10 minutes. I can attribute this to bad preparation - if I make it to the show itself,
I'll take bottles with each of the necessary solutions rather than the solid salts themselves.
Third, I had issues with getting a few of the demos to work, especially those with chloride complexation. I added a saltwater solution to copper
chloride, nickel chloride, and cobalt chloride, but they actually ended up forming the hexaaqua complexes instead of the tetrachloro complexes
desired.
And fourth, I FORGOT TO GET A FLASK FOR WASTE DISPOSAL. That was just me being a moron.
There's a lot more to consider that it sees when you do outreach!
At the end of the day, simulating atoms doesn't beat working with the real things...
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MrHomeScientist
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Ooooh yes I know all about that  You never really feel completely prepared until
you've done the same show about 10 times.
In fact I just did a live demonstration event at the beginning of this month, including thermite, screaming gummy bear, and KNO3/sugar smoke bombs. I
prepared everything as much as possible at home beforehand: I mixed the thermite in ziploc bags, prepared several screw-cap test tubes with some
potassium chlorate, and had all smoke bombs pre-assembled and ready to light. When I got there, I really only needed to unpack and do some very minor
setup. Preparation is key!
How did copper chloride in the "thunder flask" work out? How well did it color it?
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Chemosynthesis
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We had a professional group for outreach that I still try and help with on occasion. What we did was have an outreach/demonstration officer who was
in charge of maintaining the outreach demonstrations, and would instruct members on their performance. You may propose this to your school as it
would allow for resume padding and increased operational efficiency.
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Töilet Plünger
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Please disregard the screen name...
MrHomeScientist, read above - the thunder flask worked fine with copper chloride, but I couldn't have any open flames on stage. Even if a fire marshal
was present, it would not be permitted anyway.  My chemistry teacher and I are
trying to get that changed, if possible.
Chemosynthesis, that would be a great idea! I am about to graduate from high school, but I could propose this on a university level.
[edit] Oh, wait, I forgot to explain: I'm actually Brain&Force. I forgot I'm logged into the other account.
[Edited on 2014-4-17 by Töilet Plünger]
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ElizabethGreene
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one of the most spectacular demos I've seen is from the Periodic Table Videos folks on Youtube.
They carve two pieces of dry ice with a hollow in the middle. Then they add a large pile of Mg shavings in the hollow and light it. Then they
quickly put the other piece of dry ice on top, trapping the burning Mg in the middle.
The Mg pulls the O2 off of the dry ice and leaves behind Carbon and MgOx.
Visually it's stunning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dSMzg0UPPo
Scrap the idea if elephant toothpaste is too messy. This is in an entirely different league.
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thesmug
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Where would he get that much dry ice? Also I don't think that's safe enough that a school would allow it. But... if it is allowed that is a really
cool demonstration!
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MrHomeScientist
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Dry ice is readily available at grocery stores, in 5 pound blocks (in my area, at least). Also "Dippin' Dots" ice cream stores have their product
shipped in dry ice, and I once had a vendor offer to give me some (they just leave it out to sublimate after unpacking).
I've also done the dry ice & magnesium demo, with a video on my channel. Much smaller scale and quite a bit less impressive, I admit. The sparks that come off it are similar to a sparkler, and if
you set it up properly I doubt there would be much risk of a fire. The clouds of CO2(g) it releases might be the bigger problem if done in
a confined space!
And Brain&Force, you just blew my mind revealing the shocking truth about your dual accounts. Why make two?
[Edited on 4-21-2014 by MrHomeScientist]
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Brain&Force
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I was not selected for the talent show. Oh well.
But we did have a leftover volumetric flask filled with methanol and copper chloride, and we ignited it. I made a short video which I won't be able to
upload for a while, but here's a still from it:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/b69MvRl.png" title="Might try it with boric acid next time." width=800>
the person in the photo is not me
The copper chloride did not color the flame at all! This is unusual because I've done this with the copper chloride and a large turquoise flame shot
out. The difference here is that I put too much methanol in the flask - I don't know if this is related.
I was bored though I normally keep public school computers logged into the
Töilet Plünger account, so it's also a safeguard, so I can keep using my other account in case someone decides to hack the other one for some
reason.
[Edited on 23.4.2014 by Brain&Force]
At the end of the day, simulating atoms doesn't beat working with the real things...
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Brain&Force
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I may be able to participate in the talent show - I just have to cut down prep time and the actual demo time to 2.5 minutes. Cutting down the demo
time shouldn't be a problem, but cutting down the prep and clean-up time is. I'm thinking that I need to store all of the necessary solutions in
plastic water bottles before I perform. Afterwards store the waste in a volumetric flask or an Erlenmeyer with a cork to prevent any spills from
occurring.
I figured out why the thunder flask may not have turned green - there was nowhere near the amount of copper chloride necessary in the flask. Normally,
the copper complex with methanol is green, but the solution was blue because it was so dilute. I'll try this again with a sufficient amount of copper
chloride. If that doesn't work (though it should) I'll settle for boric acid or some other coloring agents. (Strontium nitrate [insoluble in methanol]
worked, but only colored a part of the flame. It was an interesting effect.)
Any other recommendations for coloring agents?
I've got a question for anyone willing to answer: are chloro complexes of transition metals more likely to form in acidic solution? I added an NaCl
solution to one of CuCl2 and NiCl2 and got no color change! It may have been too dilute for complex formation though...
I just thought of another demo: dissolving aluminum in copper chloride. It's pretty unusual and a bit of a deviation from just "solutions A and B"
demos.
I'm also trying to get the thunder flask demo certified for performance without breaching any fire codes. I don't really consider it an "open flame"
when performed in a volumetric flask because the flame tends not to exit the flask after ignition. (The match, on the other hand, is one.) If
performed in a 5 gallon water jug, however, the flame does exit, so it's probably not likely to be allowed.
At the end of the day, simulating atoms doesn't beat working with the real things...
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Brain&Force
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I've got a guaranteed spot in the talent show. I'm just doing the thunder flask demos on 3 scales: 1 L, 2 L, and 20 L. The 1 L flask will contain just
methanol, the 2 L jar will contain methanol with lithium nitrate dissolved in it (for reference, lithium nitrate is EXTREMELY soluble in methanol) and
the 20 L jug will contain trimethyl borate made in situ with methanol and boric acid.
I only have one problem now: I have tried to get a red explosion in the 2 L jar, but every time I try mixing the lithium nitrate solution in methanol
with the air and igniting it, the flame doesn't cause a red explosion - instead the flask just fills with red flame that hovers in the flask for a
few seconds. When I tried it again with trimethyl borate, it exploded in the same manner as a 1930s flash bulb. Does the drop in vaporized methanol
due to the addition of lithium nitrate cause the flame to not propagate quickly enough?
I also have gotten a few total failures with the methanol and lithium nitrate - no ignition occurred, or only a weak flame was produced that lasted
less than half a second.
Could it also be the geometry of the jar? It's similar to a Boston round, but it's clear.
I've discovered another interesting demo - lighting lithium nitrate dissolved in methanol in a beaker with a match produces a red flame. But if the
flame lasts long enough, it will induce oxidation of the match and a plume of smoke and red fire will be emitted as the match is destroyed.
At the end of the day, simulating atoms doesn't beat working with the real things...
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ScienceHideout
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Traditionally I have always done this "20 L" thunder bottle demo using a 5 gallon plastic water jug and ethyl alcohol... It seems a lot safer this
way.
hey, if you are reading this, I can't U2U, but you are always welcome to send me an email!
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Morgan
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This one's pretty zippy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYj0U9AMBZc
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Brain&Force
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I'm using methanol in a 5 gallon (I just refer to it as 20 L because I prefer metric). Methanol doesn't make the glass explode as in Morgan's video,
but it does burn faster than ethanol or isopropanol (91%).
I tried it in a 3 L water bottle but with no explosion, just a slow flame.
At the end of the day, simulating atoms doesn't beat working with the real things...
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Fantasma4500
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'water into red wine'
NaCl and CuSO4 dissolved in water along with ascorbic acid, this is heated with minimum water
this is then crashed into cold water and then filtered, you should be able to just decant off the impurities a few times and be left with CuCl at the
bottom, white ppt
this is then dissolved in NH4OH, and excess ascorbic acid is added until the deep blue solution turns nearly perfectly colourless
when acetylene is added (or.. CaC2) it will quickly turn red, supposing its because Cu2C2 is formed, this however doesnt have any explosive properties
when you dump CaC2 into the solution
pure CuCl2 with ascorbic acid added should work too, or CuCl2 + HCl + Al, or boiling CuCl2 with HCl and copper pieces for a few hours
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Brain&Force
Hazard to Lanthanides
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I never seemed to tell anyone what became of this...
The theater director decided to kick me out because he didn't like open flames. Oh well. But this thread is still a good reference for whoever needs
it later. I have a few videos of the different flames, which I'll upload to YouTube and link here.
At the end of the day, simulating atoms doesn't beat working with the real things...
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MrHomeScientist
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Geez. Such a shame to see schools' fear of chemistry or anything remotely risky. I assume you'd have a fire extinguisher nearby, which should be
plenty safe enough. Colorful flames would make a neat video for sure. I tried making one a long time ago but never could get it right - the camera
couldn't handle the sudden brightness and every color just looked white.
I actually just had a somewhat similar experience with a school. I wanted to do some thermite demos to finish a STEM camp I was teaching with a
'bang', and had to clear it with the campus safety people. Initially they were pretty concerned, understandably. I had to reiterate several times that
it was not explosive at all, but eventually I got the point across and they allowed it. I think it helped that I was able to send him a link to one of
my thermite videos, which showed him exactly what it was and demonstrated that I'd done this sort of thing before.
The kids loved it, and I broke up the iron and slag products to hand out as souveniers. The winning team for the week also received the coveted Melted
Bucket trophy. (Forgetting to bring my metal pail with sand for the products to drop into, I used a plastic one with sand instead. The molten products
never touched the pail itself, but the radiated heat was enough to melt the whole bucket above where the sand was filled to!)
[Edited on 8-1-2014 by MrHomeScientist]
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Brain&Force
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Unfortunately, the main problem is that the theater directors didn't bother to buy fire safety curtains and didn't have the money to buy them. (They
did have fire extinguishers handy though, and I have my own if I needed to bring one.)
[edit] here's the video with trimethyl borate:
<iframe sandbox width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/-_0GfkXgBGA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
[Edited on 1.8.2014 by Brain&Force]
At the end of the day, simulating atoms doesn't beat working with the real things...
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