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Texium
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Good Energetic Materials for a Novice
While I am not a COMPLETE beginner in terms of chemistry in general, I have not tried much in terms of energetic materials.
So far, I've only made black powder and yellow powder.
Does anybody here have some ideas for energetic materials that would not be too dangerous, while still fairly impressive, that people like me who are
new to energetic materials could synthesize?
BTW, I realize that I probably could have UTFSE, but I figured it would be nice and convenient for people like me to be able to find a thread of
fairly safe but interesting suggestions.
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Zyklon-A
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Nitrocellulose is a fun easy energetic to prepare. If you have sulfuric acid.
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thesmug
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Wouldn't you also need Nitric Acid?
[edit] If you're really careful you could try nitrogen triiodide, assuming you have iodine.
[Edited on 4/8/14 by thesmug]
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copperastic
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Thesmug, Ive been wanting to do nitrogen triiodide for a while but im worried that it would sound like a gunshot and i might go to jail. Have you done
it and did it sound like a gun shot?
Thanks
[Edited on 8-4-2014 by copperastic]
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thesmug
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It doesn't really sound like a gunshot, more like a firework. Where do you live (not in my basement)? This would help in suggesting experiments.
Making nitrogen triiodide wouldn't be a good idea inside an urban area. I did mine in the middle of nowhere in Michigan.
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plante1999
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I would say that nitrocellulose is very safe and makes a great demo, although for some yet unclear reason sometime synth. fallowed carefully won't
give a good quality product.
if you would like to try something that detonate readily, silver azide is quite easy to synthetise, and detonate with slight heating. The advantage
over most other primary is the stability if stored in the dark. It is very sensitive to static, but if carefully handled it won't go off without
reason, will keep well, and will be reliable when needed. It does not make large crystals when synthesized, which simplify the synthesis compared to
the lead azide.
A standard first nitro aromatic synthesis is picric acid, but I would not recommend it, since its properties are not interesting to use as a demo
(else then if you are into dying wool).
I don't recommend you to make any nitrate else then cellulose, since these compounds are inherently unstable and can be very dangerous often due to
their low stability, high sensitivity and fast rate of decomposition in storage.
Peroxides are a no-no, unless you are experienced and want to test the properties of a few mg. Do not follow the trend of people that use them as
primary.
I never asked for this.
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roXefeller
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Black powder. No dealing with preparation of nitric acid and it lets you get your feet wet. Then you can play with all the fun ways of using it. NC
is one option for the next step up, but picrates can be fun and don't have big runaway risks. You'll learn plenty of nitroaromatic chemistry that
will serve you well for something else like TNT which is a safer cousin to the nitrate esters that plante1999 was talking about.
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copperastic
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I live in an urban area but I do have a membership to a gun club but i don't think they would let me do nitrogen triiodide there. Could i do like .5
gram amounts in my house? Also, do you have any experiments involving energetic materials i could do in a urban area.
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Zyklon-A
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Don't worry about that copperastic, it doesn't really sound like a gun shot. Just don't make much.
thesmug, No, you just need sulfuric acid and a nitrate salt.
[Edited on 8-4-2014 by Zyklonb]
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copperastic
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Ok zyklonb I also remember when i used to be into slingshots and i would fire those at a cardboard box and it would make a loud noise but no neighbors
were annoyed or anything.
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Napolean Dynamite
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The answer to detonating .5g of HE inside your house is no, unless you are wearing ear protection I suppose.
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thesmug
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I agree with Napolean Dynamite, 0.5g of nitrogen triiodide is actually kind of a lot. I would go with even lower amounts if you want to do it inside
without worrying about your hearing.
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Bert
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Thread Moved
7-4-2014 at 20:01 |
Bert
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I don't know if there is ANY "good first synthesis" if you're completely new to it and on your own. But nitrogen triiodide certainly is NOT a good
first lab.
I swiped a few grams of Iodine from the high school chemistry lab at age 16. Did the obvious thing with it, of course.
Performed the reaction with my mom's "clear ammonia" between getting home from school and going off to my part time job at a local restaurant. The
batch was left drying on the filter paper, sitting on my desk- In my bedroom. Indoors. About 5' from my bed. With all my prized lab glass sitting next
to it.
Bad planning, that.
When I got home, my lab glass was in tiny pieces all over the room. A LOT of it was in my bed... My dad was waiting up for me, drinking a beer and
when he talked to me he was rather surprisingly calm and non-judgemental... All he said was: Don't make anything explosive in the house. Don't bring
anything explosive you MAKE into the house. Good night.
The next day, my younger brother who had the bedroom next to mine told me that he had been horsing around with a friend, and banged into the wall
separating our rooms. There was a large explosion on my side of the wall... He opened the door of his room just in time to see my father finish his
sprint to my bedroom door. Dad opened the door and looked inside at the cloud of purple iodine vapor hanging over the ruins of my desk and said to
himself out loud: "Oh. He knows how to make that now?"
Dad then closed my door and went back to the kitchen table, cracked a beer and continued sketching electronics circuits for his next day's work. Don't
know how many more he downed before I got home that night-
It took me hours to clean up all that broken glass. If it had not gone off until I had come home and entered the room, I'd have probably suffered
injuries from flying glass, possibly hearing damage and maybe lost an eye or eyes. I was as lucky as such a fool can be.
At Dad's funeral, his older brother told me the story about Dad getting arrested at age 13 for a fireworks experiment that broke a neighbor's window
back before WWII. Guess it runs in the family.
[Edited on 8-4-2014 by Bert]
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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thesmug
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Well that's why I said not to do it inside!
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Bert
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Yup!
NOT INSIDE! It's something I repeat to people who are new to energetics quite often myself.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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aga
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Er, the request was for 'Good Energetic Materials for a Novice'
The words 'Good' and 'Novice' are there in bold letters.
Can anyone suggest something a little 'safer', rather than HE formulations ?
Build up to the neutron bomb slowly.
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Bert
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Quote: Originally posted by aga  | Er, the request was for 'Good Energetic Materials for a Novice'
The words 'Good' and 'Novice' are there in bold letters.
Can anyone suggest something a little 'safer', rather than HE formulations ?
Build up to the neutron bomb slowly. |
OK.
There is NOTHING in the area of energetic materials that is completely safe. We are talking degrees of safety here...
My best advice, after doing nearly everything in my earlier years in ah, shall we say "less than optimally reduced risk" fashion?
Find a mentor with hands on experience, (ideally with 10 fingers mostly present on those hands!) Energetic Materials is best learned in an
apprenticeship situation, you just can't get it all from Internet & books, most especially if you're young, immortal and just itching to try out
all the cool new possibilities.
Go here if you're 18 or over: Pyrotechnics Guild International
If you're under 18, go here: Junior Pyrotechnics Association
And the people suggesting black powder as a first energetic are correct. Start with low explosives in small amounts, work your way up.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Chemosynthesis
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I agree with Bert.
Under the right supervision, I think black powder and nitrocellulose are the most legally accessible low and high order explosives, respectively. You
should definitely get informed of the local laws and have acquaintances to, at the least, vouch for your character in a legal setting should you draw
negative attention.
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hyfalcon
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Well before any of the complex synths, I would suggest perchlorate/Al flash mixtures. They aren't as safe as BP but, you're just dealing with mixing
powders together, not mixtures of acid. That's what I steeped up to after BP. I you're just wanting the bang then you don't have to go any further.
I'm kinda partial to reactive targets myself. I got tired of walking all the way down range just to see if I had punched a hole in the target.
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Metacelsus
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Things you should do (in order):
1) Black powder
2) Flash powder
3) Nitrocellulose
4) Other high explosives (ETN/RDX, etc.)
This also happens to be my progression (over a few years).
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plante1999
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Nitric ester like ETN are not something to play with, especially ETN. Like I already said, they are unstable, sensitive, and of low stability. Else
then a few exceptions they are not material to try on.
I would not conssider Flash powder to be something to try too.
I never asked for this.
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hyfalcon
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plante, the regular pyro mix 70/30 potassium perchlorate/aluminum is as close to safe as you can get when dealing with energetics above just black
powder. If he's going to mess with any of it that would be the one to mess with. Do NOT work with chlorate mixtures until you have quit a bit more
experience and are aware of proper mixing and safety procedures. Do not EVER mix chlorate and sulfur, they have and will spontaneously combust.
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Texium
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Yep, perchlorate/aluminum was actually something else I was planning on doing, so I guess I'm on the right track.
By the way, I do absolutely everything outside, and I am very cautious when it comes to anything explosive, even black powder.
I'm not trying to make the biggest explosions I can like a kewl, I just want to explore another facet of chemistry that isn't exactly spoken of in
high school chemistry class.
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feacetech
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If you are old/sensable enough to use a centre fire rifle
Ammonium Nitrate/pyro grade Al powder
95%:5% mass ratio
is pretty safe
just the shooting and distance from target is all you have to worry about
maybe working with ultra fine Al powder can be hazrdous if the proper precautions are not taken
you may need some rural land away from any one who may get upset by loud noises, as this is fairly "impressive"
[Edited on 10-4-2014 by feacetech]
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Zyklon-A
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So you're saying to shoot at the AN-Al mixture with a gun? This I've gotta try!
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