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Bot0nist
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Thank you chordate, I will keep that in mind when I am tring to rig something up. I am a bit scared to try and 'throw' anything with the MEKP. I
wonder if the brisance of the compound would cause a problem.
Also, I saw some tests using iron plates to test the power of blasts. It seemed to work pretty well, but I would like to avoid any detonations if
possible. I know a small amount of MEKP will detonate if soaked into something or confined, but I have only initiated amounts that resulted in a large
deflagration, even when soaked into cellulose nitrate. I suppose I could slightly scale up my tests to get a DDT since I am already set up for the
possibility of a full order detonation occurring, just for safety's sake. (Mounted camera, Plexiglas shield, and a remote initiation system.)
[Edited on 8-3-2011 by Bot0nist]
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Bert
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Google the terms "ballistics pendulum" and "ballistics mortar". These were more commonly used for HE than the eprouvette, and you won't need a range
to chase cannon balls down. The US Bureau of mines in particular was fond of the ballistics mortar-
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Bot0nist
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Got a few observations for anyone who is interested.
Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide on Cellulose Nitrate.
0.3 grams of C<sub>6</sub>H<sub>7</sub>(NO<sub>2</sub> <sub>3</sub>O<sub>5</sub> and 0.5ml of M.E.K.P. are the amounts used in all tests.
All amounts were lightly confined in aluminum foil tubes measuring approximately 1 inch long and 2cm in diameter, with four layers of foil going
around.
'Charges' were placed on a 1/4inch thick disk of balsa wood about 8 inches in circumference and initiated by a butane pen torch that is attached to a
pull arm with a 20ft piece of string.
For some basic controls I first filled two identical tubes with only 0.3 grams of cellulose nitrate and twisted the ends shut (using welders gloves
and a face shield of coarse, overkill, i know.) Both of these tests proceeded about how you would expect. As soon as the flame touched the foil
packet, a five or six inch flame popped open one of the ends of the tube and erupted outwards.
Next I dripped 0.5ml of M.E.K.P. into one of the foil packets with no cotton at all. This took slightly longer to ignite than the cellulose, but still
probably less than a second from when the flame touched the foil, a satisfying pop was heard with a tall column of orange fire, and a clean hole was
punched upwards through the foil. Still no damage to balsa wood disks.
Next up I filled 3 foil tubes with 0.5ml of M.E.K.P. on 0.3 grams of regular cotton, and the three last tubes with 0.5ml M.E.K.P. on my double
nitrated C<sub>6</sub>H<sub>7</sub>(NO<sub>2</sub><sub>3</sub>O<sub>5</sub>. First the 3 tubes with regular cotton were initiated one at a time in the same manner as above.
All three preformed similarly. A loud band that left only the twisted ends of the foil intact. All three also slightly damaged the balsa wood disks,
causing a small slit and several splinters pointing downwards. (A different disk was used for each test.)
Lastly, The foil packets with cellulose nitrate and M.E.K.P were initiated in the same manner. Based on my observations, these last tests definitely
had something the others did not. No flame what so ever was observed and it was extremely sharp and loud sounding. All three tests resulted in the
foil tubes being reduced to pieces no larger that coarse salt, including the end pieces. A well defined hole was punched in all tree of the wood disks
about 5 inches long and 3 inches wide. The second of these tests actually split the wooden disk into 3 pieces and some splinters. I was wearing foam
insert ear plugs during all these tests and my ears are still ringing loudly, several hours later. Especially my right one.
This was my first experience with HE detonations and I have to say it was exhilarating, but also terrifying. I have no doubt that those little foil
packets, especially the last three, would have maimed me had they been near my person. These tests were done with the material very lightly confined,
There was amply room inside the foil packets and no attempt was made to compress the material in any way. Even though they were loosely filled they
were much louder that a suitable sized KClO4/Al flash charge and had a different, sharper sound to it. I believe that these would have the necessary
brisance to initiate a secondary, even without being compressed.
See a couple posts back for information on the M.E.K.P. and cellulose nitrate synthesis I used for my tests.
[Edited on 13-3-2011 by Bot0nist]
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crazywantabies
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Thank you for the excellent details of MEK peroxide making from scratch. I have been making about "everything" from scratch for 26 years. I love
ANGLES & arts. ....therefore, anyone know if this MEK peroxide hardens CASTIN' CRAFT* liquid plastic CLEAR CASTING RESIN?(*copywright CASTIN'
CRAFT). I am also going to pray, if I may, for good ol Madscientist one or two times. THANKS AGAIN, Mad..
I speak in lieu of part time for appreciation for all things, slow bumper sticker for love on highways,  , and THE BOX, future consciousness "sin" detection unit for no illusions psychic war, not bloody war- 8 years ive been
saying such.
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Bot0nist
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What?
I am sure gelatin can be made by mixing cellulose nitrate with as little acetone as possible to get it to gel up, then mixing said thick lacquer with
desired proportion of M.E.K.P. I'm not sure that it could be made cast-able easily, though it can be soaked into many solids. A lot of people seem to
prefer nitrate salts as a media.
[Edited on 24-3-2011 by Bot0nist]
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grndpndr
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Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  | What?
I am sure gelatin can be made by mixing cellulose nitrate with as little acetone as possible to get it to gel up, then mixing said thick lacquer with
desired proportion of M.E.K.P. I'm not sure that it could be made cast-able easily, though it can be soaked into many solids. A lot of people seem to
prefer nitrate salts as a media.
[Edited on 24-3-2011 by Bot0nist] |
I made a similar suggestion to the above(recieving a great deal of grief/ridicule in the process) but using commercial SP/DBSP in lieu of the
cellulose nitrate mentioned above.Glad to hear someone tried it.
[Edited on 1-5-2011 by grndpndr]
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TheMessenger
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When you mix MEKP with TCAP 50:50, or even 30:70 you end up with a slushy... The TCAP never fully dissolves into the MEKP.
Is it possible that MEKP/TCAP is actually something different than MEKP + TCAP? Or is it just that when they are synthesized together the MEKP
prevents the formation of TCAP crystals...
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detonator
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The MEKP toxicity is not small.
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124563
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| Quote: Originally posted by zeppelin69 | | The same as those for AP. At twelve percent peroxide, I would use about 2.2 times the volume of MEK so lets say you had 100ml MEK, I would use 220ml
12%H2O2, and of course the catalyst is personal preference, but I would use probably 15ml HCL. |
if i
screw this up srry first post but i agree with your findings it seems the key mix is equal parts of peroxide to mek if the peroxide is 35% so if you
use 3% you want to use at least 10 times more peroxide
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killswitch
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Is MEKP miscible in nitroglycerin, or does it form layers?
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Adas
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It should be miscible.
Rest In Pieces!
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killswitch
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Goddammit.
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Pyrotrons
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Hi All,
The very first post of this thread gives a procedure for procuring MEKP. Since that thread, I have read numerous times of the following:
1). The addition of concentrated H2SO4 to the MEK/H2O2 solution gives substantial hissing/sputtering noises as it enters solution. I have also
noticed that there is discoloration of the droplet when it makes contact. This wasn't mentioned in the original procedure, and it worries me.
2). Coprecipitation of MEKP with Acetone Peroxide yields a substantially better explosive, in terms of initiating effectiveness, while preserving the
sensitivity and stability characteristics of MEKP.
3). Coprecipitating AP+MEKP removes the necessity to A). Dry and B). Deacidify, the product. I noticed that in the original procedure, that when the
NaHCO3 solution (of unspecified concentration) is added, strong bubbling and boiling occurs <i>within the primary explosive itself</i>. I
find this terrifying, and would love to omit that.
In light of these items, I have modified the original procedure to accommodate these changes. I am not a chemist, and I am not aware of all of the
variables that can be present in such syntheses. Red-lining, burning, or soaking of the following procedure in MEKP are welcomed.
THIS IS AN UN-TESTED EXPERIMENTAL PROCEDURE
*******************************************
Coprecipitation of Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide and Acetone Peroxide
CHEMICALS NEEDED:
-40mL 27.5% H2O2 solution
-12.5mL Methyl Ethyl Ketone, CH3COCH2CH3
-12.5mL Acetone
-5mL 98% sulfuric acid
-8mL distilled water
NOTE: It is critical that temperatures remain within recommended limits between the beginning of step 4 and the end of step 5. Only after the
solution in Step 6 has spent 24 hours between -15C and 5C can the temperature be allowed to rise back to room temperature.
1) In a 100mL beaker, combine 12.5mL of MEK with 12.5mL of Acetone and stir for 30 seconds. In an ice bath, reduce the temperature of this solution
to between -10 and 5 degrees Celsius; the lower end of this range is preferable.
2) Place 40mL of 27.5% H2O2 solution in a 100mL beaker. In an ice bath, reduce the temperature of this solution to between -10 and 5 degrees Celcius;
the lower end is preferable.
3) Place 8mL of distilled water into a small beaker. Slowly add 5mL of 98% sulfuric acid to the beaker containing the 8mL of distilled water. The
temperature of this solution is unimportant, however, better temperature control of the other solutions may be had by cooling this in an ice bath as
well.
4) Wait for the temperature of all solutions to stabilize within the recommended temperature range, then pour the beaker of the MEK/Acetone solution
into the beaker of the Hydrogen Peroxide solution. Stir for 30 seconds while maintaining the recommended temperature range.
5) Slowly, drop-by-drop, add 13mL (all) of the previously diluted sulfuric acid solution, taking care to keep temperatures within the recommended
temperature range, into the beaker containing the MEK/Acetone. If the temperature rises above 5 degrees Celcius, stop adding the sulfuric acid
solution immediately.
6) After all of the sulfuric acid has been added, place in a freezer for 24 hours. It is critical to maintain a temperature between -15 and 5 Degrees
Celsius during the entirety of this time period. (What is the loss of yield if you only wait 8 hours? 12 hours?)
7) After 24 hours in the freezer, the solution can be allowed to warm back to room temperature.
8) LAYER DESCRIPTION - The original procedure used the words "thick" and "thin". This is confusing as this can refer to both viscosity and size
(height) of the layer, so re-word that.
9) Extraction via syringe - definitely important. Decanting results in loss of yield, as the product sticks to the bottom. Don't ask how I figured
that out.
10) YIELD was never mentioned in original procedure.
11) STORAGE - "Don't store in polyhydrocarbon plastics"- was the only specification for the MEKP primary??? Edit: I found one MSDS for commercial
MEKP (resin hardener) that was distributed in polyethylene containers. LDPE, HDPE, UHMW...or doesn't matter?
12). Some indication of what quality can be expected - Drop test, decomposition temp, plate dent, etc.
END OF UN-TESTED EXPERIMENTAL PROCEDURE
*************************************
[Edited on 6-11-2013 by Pyrotrons]
"Thus ethyl alcohol is inferior to xylene, although usable for certain applications." - Gerald Hurst
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underground
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I have a stupid question, but i am going to ask
When you are going to mix a liquid with a solid material, the density is going to be the maximum of both materials or not ?
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Pickardjr
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mekp is used in the marine industry in fiberglass repair/building, Ive seen it catch on fire from a rag that was used to wipe it up.
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woelen
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| Quote: Originally posted by underground | I have a stupid question, but i am going to ask
When you are going to mix a liquid with a solid material, the density is going to be the maximum of both materials or not ? |
No, on average, the density will be somewhere between that of the two. If mixing is more than simply mechanical mixing, such as
dissolving the solid in the liquid, then in general you cannot say very much about the density of the resulting liquid. In theory, it even could be
that the density of the solution is larger than the density of any of the starting materials. Such a situation could occur if the liquid consists of
large molecules with a lot of 'limbs' such that no compact arrangement in space is possible. If the solid consists of small molecules, then these
small molecules might fill up gaps in space, which cannot be occupied by the large molecules and then the density of the solution is larger than the
density of the solvent. If the solvent in this case is the one with the larger density (e.g. because it consists of heavy elements), then the
resulting solution is more dense than any of the starting material.
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underground
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I was thinking of mixing some ETN with NM to achieve good density, but it looks melting and casting ETN is a one way road for max density...
What about if you are going to mix it with a liquid fuel with high density, like glucose
[Edited on 6-11-2013 by underground]
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Pyrotrons
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Respectfully (underground), this thread is about MEKP.
"Thus ethyl alcohol is inferior to xylene, although usable for certain applications." - Gerald Hurst
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Pyrotrons
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The synthesis directly above (Coprecipitation of Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide and Acetone Peroxide) was performed. Notes are as follows, most
important to least:
- After all constituents were added to the reaction beaker, and the beaker was placed into the freezer, the liquid in the center of the beaker
(warmest point) slowly crept UPWARDS, exceeding 9 Deg. C until it was caught and corrected with stirring. This is unacceptable temperature rise and
will be corrected in a new procedure. I will report the original procedure (above) to the mods, as I believe it to be unsafe.
- Swirling the reaction beaker to mix the contents, instead of stirring it with a physical rod, will be recommended in the new procedure.
- It was observed that after reacting for 12 hours, the MEKP/AP was floating on top as a nearly crystal clear layer of liquid, inside the 100mL
beaker. Beneath the MEKP/AP surface layer in much larger quantity, was a cloudy white layer. Due to the optical qualities of the floating surface
layer of MEKP/AP, I would assume that it is of high purity, and anhydrous. 10g of this material was slowly and carefully extracted from the top of
the cloudy layer with an eyedropper, however, 4g of the crystal clear MEKP/AP remained, as it was nearly impossible to remove via the eyedropper
without contaminating it with the cloudy layer underneath. The new procedure accommodates extraction better, by letting the reaction sit while
cooling overnight in a minimum-size graduated cylinder, where the clear MEKP/AP sitting on top is much easier to extract in full, without
contamination.
To summarize this: After performing the procedure detailed above, ANY method, other than direct extraction of the MEKP/AP from the top, seems to
result in cloudy whitish (contaminated) MEKP/AP.
- As others have found, diluting the H2SO4 before addition to the reaction beaker fixed the unnerving hissing noises.
- Yield of above procedure: 14g (14mL), after only waiting 12 hours in the freezer, at -10 Deg. C. No solids were ever observed. The product was an
absolutely crystal-clear liquid, similar in viscosity to corn syrup.
The new procedure in the works should result in better temperature control, easier extraction of the MEKP/AP solution, and a high purity product.
(edited for grammar)
[Edited on 9-11-2013 by Pyrotrons]
"Thus ethyl alcohol is inferior to xylene, although usable for certain applications." - Gerald Hurst
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Pard
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What actually is the projected yield for the synthesis on the first page? Is there a formula for projecting it based on the amount H202 or MEK
perhaps?
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franklyn
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Axt has not been seen here since geocities closed down in 2009
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/member.php?action=viewpro...
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=20&...
The video from his post is still available
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYpoQ3VrjVE
"A misconception of the structure of MEKP is prevalent in chemical reference literature , assigning the cyclic dimer as the structure for MEKP when it
has been shown conclusively that the main components of the commonly produced industrial MEKP are monomer and dimer and that the cyclic dimer is not
present." From => www.osha.gov/dts/sltc/methods/organic/org077/org077.html
For energetic purposes it must be noted that the monomer has the highest oxygen balance while the cyclic dimer has the lowest.
C4H10O4 , Monomer
__________________
C8H18O6 , Linear Dimer
C8H16O4 , Cyclic Dimer
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=20&...
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=20&...
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=20&...
@ Rosco Bodine
Can you proffer an opinion on whether MEKP can serve to phlegmatize HMTD ?
In the same way you propose for solvation of solid organic peroxide TATP.
.
[Edited on 14-9-2014 by franklyn]
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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test MEKP
I just study MEKP a thread here: http: //www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php? Tid = 20 & pag ... (from Axt)
Here I see a single clear or conclusive tests. (and youtube) Question: The container was always 60 g EM? It is not clearly explained. Thus for me. I
use everything on auto compiler. Thank you for your reply .... ...LL
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eng_lami
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hello
please i need your help
i want to make a test to check the effective of MEKP before using it in industry
thnx 
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NitratedKittens
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Do you know any other things you could make MEKP Dynamite out of
Basket of kittens for you ........BOOM
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KesterDraconis
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So I've synthesized some MEKP lately. I used the procedure outlined on the first page of this thread. However, I've found myself unable to get it to
detonate reliably. While I did put some wrapped in aluminum foil over a candle flame and got a loud bang from it, I've not been able to detonate any
of it with a fuse or even R-candy burned around it (when it is wrapped in foil). It just deflagarates quickly in a sudden flame, sometimes just
slightly popping the foil cover, but with nothing near the bang that follows its detonation.
So basically, the question I've come to ask is if there is some trick to this, or better way to get it to detonate reliably? I like the fact that its
relatively stable, and therefore not as likely to take my fingers off, however I also don't like the idea of using this as a primary only for my
charge to not detonate (and then I have to find some way to safely dispose of it).
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