underground
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C-4 based with ETN
I was wondering if it is possible to manufacture a C-4 like explosive but based with ETN
The C-4 comp is
R. D. X. 91.0 %
Polyisobutylene 2.1 %
Motor Oil 1.6 %
Di-(2-ethylhexy) sebecate 5.3 %
So what about
E.T.N. 91.0 %
Polyisobutylene 2.1 %
Motor Oil 1.6 %
Di-(2-ethylhexy) sebecate 5.3 %
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Ral123
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Oh absolutely, but...
In case of:
ETN/RDX
Fire: detonates/ low risk
Gun shot: detonates/ low risk
Transport accident: detonates/ low risk
Handling: dizziness/ cancer
Poor storage: extreme hazard/unfriendly waste
Warm weather: molten blob/ -----
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DubaiAmateurRocketry
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It seems the disadvantage might be the sensitivity.
The positive oxygen balance seems to be a advantage but I am not sure if it could increase the performance. Apparantly reading Dany's post, http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=25892
the extra oxygen might not contribute to vod.
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Blue Matter
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A very long time ago I saw something on high explosive forum I believe someone was experimenting with different wood putty? supposedly it was working
very well with him i think it was around a 25-75 ratio of putty to etn, might be worth a try.
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Dany
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many people due to Hollywood film maker and years of sales propaganda think that C-4 plastic explosive is many time more powerful than for example TNT
or other explosive, a block of C-4 will blew up an entire building 
well, when you compare RDX and C-4 performance data you will prefer to work with RDX:
1-theoretical maximum density: RDX (1.81 g/cm3) vs C-4 (1.67 g/cm3) however, C-4 is sold @ nominal density of 1.58-1.62
g/cm3.
2-Detonation velocity Dcj: RDX (8.7 km/s @ 1.77 g/cm3) vs C-4 (8.04 @ 1.59 g/cm3).
3-Detonation pressure Pcj: RDX (338 kbar @ 1.77 g/cm3) vs C-4 (257 @ 1.59 g/cm3).
4- Gurney characteristic velocity √2E (which is an indicative of metal accelerating ability of a given explosives): RDX (2.93 km/s (measured) @
1.76-1.77 g/cm3) vs C-4 (2.69-2.72 (predicted) @ 1.66 g/cm3).
Note that Gurney characteristic velocity of C-4 is calculated @ 1.66 g/cm3 which is not found in industrial C-4 as already cited above (C-4
is sold @ nominal density of 1.58-1.62 g/cm3) so √2E of real C-4 is even lower than 2.69-2.72 km/s.
As we can see RDX outperform C-4. Yes, C-4 is less impact sensitive and easy to handle but for an amateur who synthesis explosive for scientific
curiosity it is not that big deal to make C-4. RDX pressed @ high density will do the job. The same thing apply to ETN.
all information can be found in LLNL Explosives Handbook-Properties of Chemical Explosives and explosive simulants (rev.2-1985)
the predicted Gurney characteristic velocity is from Propellants, Explos., Pyrotech. 33, No. 4, 316 – 320.
Dany.
[Edited on 1-11-2013 by Dany]
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underground
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So melting and casting ETN into blocks should be better ?
Can we add some AL to increase the performance - OB to molten ETN ?
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Pulverulescent
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| Quote: | So melting and casting ETN into blocks should be better ?
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. . . If you're after the Darwin Award, yes!
Sensitivity increases with temperature and for ETN sensitivity at its melting point will be such that the slightest jarring might 'set it off"!
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones"
A Einstein
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Dany
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If you can control the crystallization process after ETN has been molted, yes you will be able to achieve near theoretical maximum density charge.
However casting explosive is not simply molting the explosive and let the charge to cool. if the cooling process is not controlled the charge will
suffer from many voids and inhomogeneous density for the following reason:
When trinitrotoluene is casted cooling is performed so all the mass is solidified at once. If you melt TNT and let the charge to cool in an ordinary
mold a temperature gradient in the charge will be established, this mean the charge will be cooler at periphery and hotter at the center and thus the
solidification began at the periphery while the center is still liquid. This phenomenon has a dramatic effect on the explosive shape because as the
explosive mass cool it will solidify and shrink and finally when all is solid a hole will be crated in the center of the charge. This what we call
piping (for mor information see ENGINEERING DESIGN HANDBOOK. EXPLOSIVES SERIES. EXPLOSIVE TRAINS, section 10.2 (Casting) http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/777482.pdf
see also this paper for new techniques in explosive casting and controlled solidification:
http://www.ndt.net/article/wcndt2008/papers/104.pdf
I do not recommend at all to cast ETN or other explosive at home. Casting of explosive is generally done in isolated building. The casting process is
monitored with camera and remote control device. According to my knowledge adding aluminium to ETN in liquid state has not been tested. Generally
before making any explosive composition scientist make a DSC (Differential Scanning Calorimetry) to see if the addition of for example aluminium will
depress the decomposition temperature of ETN. This will be very clear on the DSC thermogram, you will see a positive peak called exotherm when
decomposition start. by comparing the exotherm temperature of pure ETN and that of ETN/Aluminium one can deduce if aluminium has effect on thermal
properties of ETN and hence the safety. Also, introducing solid particle to explosive composition can increase sensitivity because this small
Aluminium particle can act as a Hot Spot centers where the shock wave energy is concentrated and where the chemical reaction starts, so this also must
be tested by for example the Gap test.
Dany.
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underground
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I was wondering if there is somewhere any source of Polyisobutylene / Di-(2-ethylhexy) sebecate from scratch...
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Simbani
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Fuck off.
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VladimirLem
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Quote: Originally posted by Dany  | many people due to Hollywood film maker and years of sales propaganda think that C-4 plastic explosive is many time more powerful than for example TNT
or other explosive, a block of C-4 will blew up an entire building
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what the hell are you talking about? i ve been watching Die Hard and Willis threw around 4 pounds C4 in an elevator shaft and nerly the whole building
explodes...so are they lieing on me?
*trollface.jpg* 
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Ral123
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@Dany
I'm not convinced maximum density industrial C4 will show less bisance then hand pressed RDX. In another topic you say that watering material can
increase velocity at the same energy density. I suspect C4 is can be even more brisant then EGDN/NC volume basis. I wonder if there are special HMX,
CL20, DDF-"C4"?
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Blue Matter
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I have been reading the patents needed to Polyisobutylene and it seems very unlikely any home chemist could be able to produce them.
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The_Davster
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Thread Split
2-11-2013 at 16:38 |
Melmoth
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Polyisobutylene (PIB) is just butyl rubber.. Found in gloves and the like. Probably just dissolve in toluene?
"This species has amused itself to death"
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underground
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| Quote: Originally posted by Melmoth | | Polyisobutylene (PIB) is just butyl rubber.. Found in gloves and the like. Probably just dissolve in toluene? |
What about that:
DOA also is used to produce clear films for food packaging applications (according to wikipedia) So if we could obtain those 2 ingredients and dissolve them with some ETN and motor oil may we could make some c4 ETN based exposive,
it sounds really good... And the ETN's positive OB may result into an explosive better that C4 or at least, equivalent
[Edited on 5-11-2013 by underground]
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Fantasma4500
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infact dany, the smart thing about plasticizing RDX is that it easily reaches 1.5g/cm3 where its only possible to press RDX to around 1g/cm3 (golfpro
also talked about this, in the threads he got banned from, lols)
anyhow i do agree, plasticizing is just fun to play around with but not more powerful, only practical to people who dont wanna spend time making
container and all for their charge..
also NC/ETN wettened with abit of acetone should work, but would need to be kept in a plastic bag or piece of aluminium foil to stay slightly wet, but
still has the well feeling of a plastique, also it doesnt really decrease much of its properties, supposing acetone wont down its properties, not
entirely sure tho
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underground
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What about mixing ETN with flour and nitromethane to form a dough consistency ?
Or replace the NM with water, do the necessary calculations to have a zero OB and add as necessary / less as possible flour and water for plasticize,
what you think, will that work ?
Unfortunately acetone evaporates really quickly
[Edited on 5-11-2013 by underground]
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Dany
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| Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat | | infact dany, the smart thing about plasticizing RDX is that it easily reaches 1.5g/cm3 where its only possible to press RDX to around 1g/cm3
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The problem that you and golfpro are talking about something that i didn't get any proof for its correctness. The impossibility of pressing (by an
amateur) RDX beyond 1g/cm3 should be prooved with measurement of loading density in a cylinder. pressing the explosive should be performed
in a safe manner and not with your bare hand. I know that pressing explosive to very high crystal density need special equipment. Anyway, RDX @ 1.5 or
1.6 g/cm3 still outperform C-4 (@ the same density) because C-4 has 9% inert binder which decrease the detonation energy and hence the
overall performance.
Dany.
[Edited on 5-11-2013 by Dany]
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Fantasma4500
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the question is rather if 1g/cm3 RDX outperforms C4 @1.5g/cm3
i dont have any references to this, however i talked with a russian who have a good deal of experience in energetics, in which he did before 2000 and
now doesnt do much if any in it.. i see the reason for references as it would be interesting, its a pinpoint towards that its correct..
i searched quickly on google for it but didnt find anything, it would also be somewhat complicated to find as density and RDX and plasticizer is words
used so often in context..
if i managed to confuse you: no i dont have any references 
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Dany
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| Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat | | however i talked with a russian who have a good deal of experience in energetics, in which he did before 2000 and now doesnt do much if any in it..
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Sad, does this russian stopped EM following an injury or something else?
Dany.
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Fantasma4500
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now that i think of it, hes still in the game..
he just stopped doing HE's generally and got more fascinated of pyrotechnics
quite sure i would know if he had accidents of any sort..
i could ask him if he knows what this plasticizer increasing density-effect would be called or have any references to it?
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