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Manifest
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Making Sodium Hydroxide(Lye)
I am only starting out and so far I have 1 erlenmeyer flask and some Copper Sulfate off ebay to start me off.
Obviously I don't have alot and when I google Make sodium hydroxide I get the electrolysis of NaCl method which never works out for me.
I've thought of a better method.
Instructions
1. Get a suitable crucible and powder some seashells or eggshells into a powder and put that in the crucible.
2. Heat intensely for 5 minutes, this will convert the Calcium Carbonate in the shells into Calcium Oxide and Carbon dioxide.
CaCO3(s) → CaO(s) + CO2(g)
3. Put the newly formed Calcium Oxide into a small amount of water. This reacts to form Calcium Hydroxide.
4. Concentrate this until no more will disolve(Calcium Hydroxide)
5. Add a load of tablesalt to this solution, this will form Sodium Hydroxide and Calcium chloride.
Filter this to get rid of excess tablesalt
This is my first post and I have tried to be as helpful as possible.
I wonder how you could seperate the Lye and the Calcium Chloride.
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m1tanker78
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This won't work; sodium chloride (in solution) will be your major yield unfortunately. I've read somewhere that sodium bicarbonate(?) can be heated
with calcium hydroxide in a furnace to make small amounts of sodium hydroxide. Sounds like a flimsy, messy way of obtaining lye.
Depending on where you live, you may be able to get relatively pure lye OTC. It's rather expensive, though. It can also be sourced from the internet
very easily.
Tank
Edited for tired thinking and typing..
[Edited on 12-8-2012 by m1tanker78]
Chemical CURIOSITY KILLED THE CATalyst.
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Manifest
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Quote: Originally posted by m1tanker78  | This won't work; calcium hydroxide is sparingly soluble in water whereas sodium hydroxide is very soluble. I've read somewhere that sodium
bicarbonate(?) can be heated with calcium hydroxide in a furnace to make small amounts of sodium hydroxide. Sounds like a flimsy, messy way of
obtaining lye.
Depending on where you live, you may be able to get relatively pure lye OTC. It's rather expensive, though. It can also be sourced from the internet
very easily.
Tank |
Are there any other ways that are easy enough to do that give an anywhere decent yield?
I can't seem to find the pellets anywhere.
I have some oven cleaner with it and I have tried to boil it down to obtain the lye
Only problem is that it has some sort of foaming agent in it.
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Manifest
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| Quote: Originally posted by m1tanker78 | This won't work; sodium chloride (in solution) will be your major yield unfortunately. I've read somewhere that sodium bicarbonate(?) can be heated
with calcium hydroxide in a furnace to make small amounts of sodium hydroxide. Sounds like a flimsy, messy way of obtaining lye.
Depending on where you live, you may be able to get relatively pure lye OTC. It's rather expensive, though. It can also be sourced from the internet
very easily.
Tank
Edited for tired thinking and typing..
[Edited on 12-8-2012 by m1tanker78] |
Was your first point not also valid?
Calcium Hydroxide has a solubility of 0.066 g/100 mL at 100C
So, therefore I cannot react it with sodium chloride?
On your other point, could I not make a concentrated solution of the calcium hydroxide(if possible) and then react the salt with that?
Then filter it.
Only problem is Calcium Chloride.
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plante1999
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It doesn't work like that. Calcium chloride is too soluble for this reaction to happen, reaction of sodium (bi)carbonate with calcium hydroxide make
calcium carbonate, which is a lot less soluble than the calcium hydroxide, favoring the reaction.
I never asked for this.
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m1tanker78
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My local Lowe's started stocking 'Roebic' brand drain cleaner. There's a big note on the label that says "100% pure lye." It's about $16 US dollars
for 2 pounds but it suits my needs since I don't use much of it. Most other drain cleaners contain nitrates and aluminum bits so they're useless for
most lye experiments and preparative chemistry.
There's a liquid drain cleaner at one of the local dollar stores that contains a mixture of lye, bleach (I think), and a thickener. I use this stuff
sometimes when the latter two won't interfere with the reaction or contaminate the final product.
Believe it or not, I've actually reacted sodium metal with water in the past when I needed some pure lye water. Now that I can buy pure (solid) lye
locally, I don't do that anymore. 
Regarding your proposed method: If it were the other way around, this would work nicely. In other words, if you combine aqueous calcium chloride with
aqueous sodium hydroxide, calcium hydroxide will precipitate. Unfortunately, it doesn't work the other way around.
Tank
Chemical CURIOSITY KILLED THE CATalyst.
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Manifest
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| Quote: Originally posted by m1tanker78 | My local Lowe's started stocking 'Roebic' brand drain cleaner. There's a big note on the label that says "100% pure lye." It's about $16 US dollars
for 2 pounds but it suits my needs since I don't use much of it. Most other drain cleaners contain nitrates and aluminum bits so they're useless for
most lye experiments and preparative chemistry.
There's a liquid drain cleaner at one of the local dollar stores that contains a mixture of lye, bleach (I think), and a thickener. I use this stuff
sometimes when the latter two won't interfere with the reaction or contaminate the final product.
Believe it or not, I've actually reacted sodium metal with water in the past when I needed some pure lye water. Now that I can buy pure (solid) lye
locally, I don't do that anymore.
Regarding your proposed method: If it were the other way around, this would work nicely. In other words, if you combine aqueous calcium chloride with
aqueous sodium hydroxide, calcium hydroxide will precipitate. Unfortunately, it doesn't work the other way around.
Tank |
It's too bad that I live in the UK.
How on Earth have you had Sodium lying around but not Lye? :?
I guess I'll just have to keep looking then.
Thanks for replying
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m1tanker78
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Ironic but I acquired a fair amount of it while experimenting with electrolysis of fused sodium chloride. Scout around for lye and consult the MSDS
because labels can be quite misleading or vague.
Good luck,
Tank
Chemical CURIOSITY KILLED THE CATalyst.
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elementcollector1
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Apparatus: A large flowerpot with no hole in the bottom, as well as a smaller flowerpot inside this (also with no hole in the bottom), preferably
glued together as well as possible.
Power source(s): Car battery or car battery charger, computer power supply (will need to mess with, not recommended). Any given Duracell battery will
not be sufficient power to overcome the sheer voltage drop between the two pots.
Outer liquid: NaCl, saturated solution
Inner liquid: Tap water (sounds crazy, but it works)
Anode: Carbon (obtained from the inside of a 6V or lantern battery)
Cathode: Preferably nickel, gold or something else that is not amphoteric. Steel and stainless steel could work as well, but they may mess with the
product (though stainless would have to be etched first.)
Set all that up, run it, and after a long while, you'll collect a fairly pure NaOH solution out of your inner pot. Boil this down to get solid NaOH,
but do it in a steel container (molten NaOH can dissolve glass and your face, at the same time!)
I hope that helped.
[Edited on 8-12-2012 by elementcollector1]
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
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cyanureeves
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Manifest i know you need sodium hydroxide but the way tanker also got sodium metal was by sticking a welding machine annode and cathode into molten
sodium hydroxide and zapping the lye. i tried it and it worked great.elementcollector1 i read your method somewhere else and the flower pots are clay
pots arent they?i'm not sure if i even saw pictures of this set up and one of the problems encountered was partial disintergration of the clay pot but
i maybe dreamin or something. our lowes also carries the roebic sodium hydroxide after a couple of years absent from the shelves also an ace hardware
opened up here just a few blocks away. ace hardware carries xylene.toluene and clear ammonia all of which i bought immediately and finally made my
hydrazine sulfate.
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elementcollector1
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| Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves | | Manifest i know you need sodium hydroxide but the way tanker also got sodium metal was by sticking a welding machine annode and cathode into molten
sodium hydroxide and zapping the lye. i tried it and it worked great.elementcollector1 i read your method somewhere else and the flower pots are clay
pots arent they?i'm not sure if i even saw pictures of this set up and one of the problems encountered was partial disintergration of the clay pot but
i maybe dreamin or something. our lowes also carries the roebic sodium hydroxide after a couple of years absent from the shelves also an ace hardware
opened up here just a few blocks away. ace hardware carries xylene.toluene and clear ammonia all of which i bought immediately and finally made my
hydrazine sulfate. |
I would imagine it does degrade, as the ceramic is porous to water (which is what allows ion transfer in the first place).
I would love to have some toluene right now... Ah well.
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
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Random
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I make NaOH that can comfortably dissolve aluminium with baking soda and ca(OH)2 solid large excess, add water, mix and leave for some time, then I
filter everything and store it
I am not sure what concentration it is though.
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Lambda-Eyde
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Then why don't you find out? Dilute it, do some titrations and analyze it for Ca impurities. In my eyes it's worthless for proper chemistry if you
don't know the concentration.
This just in: 95,5 % of the world population lives outside the USA
You should really listen to ABBAPlease drop by our IRC channel: #sciencemadness @ irc.efnet.org
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Manifest
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| Quote: Originally posted by Random | I make NaOH that can comfortably dissolve aluminium with baking soda and ca(OH)2 solid large excess, add water, mix and leave for some time, then I
filter everything and store it
I am not sure what concentration it is though. |
I don't understand what you mean.
You can dissolve aluminium and baking soda with the NaOH?
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Manifest
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| Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves | | Manifest i know you need sodium hydroxide but the way tanker also got sodium metal was by sticking a welding machine annode and cathode into molten
sodium hydroxide and zapping the lye. i tried it and it worked great.elementcollector1 i read your method somewhere else and the flower pots are clay
pots arent they?i'm not sure if i even saw pictures of this set up and one of the problems encountered was partial disintergration of the clay pot but
i maybe dreamin or something. our lowes also carries the roebic sodium hydroxide after a couple of years absent from the shelves also an ace hardware
opened up here just a few blocks away. ace hardware carries xylene.toluene and clear ammonia all of which i bought immediately and finally made my
hydrazine sulfate. |
Lol, using Lye to make Lye. I think you mean Sodium Chloride.
It would be much better to use something like Sodium Chlorate that has a low melting point.
Also, why use a welder? Why not a battery charger with carbon or copper electrodes it's much easier.
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Manifest
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Also, electrolysis of molten anything(especially Alkali metals)
is incredibly dangerous.
When the sodium forms it will react and then splash the sodium chlorate everywhere.
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m1tanker78
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Manifest, you're correct. Electrolysis of molten salts is very dangerous. Lye in particular has a habit of spitting profusely in my experience. A
properly built Castner cell can yield a good amount of metal and is less dangerous than simply sticking carbons in the melt.
Forget about sodium chlorate. It decomposes at MP and releases oxygen. I haven't tried it but can surmise that it would make
lye electrolysis look like kids play. It reforms sodium chloride anyway..
The thread got off topic a bit but I guess it's ok because the original question was addressed.  There are a lot of UK members here and surely one of them can chime in and help you source some lye.
Tank
Chemical CURIOSITY KILLED THE CATalyst.
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Manifest
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| Quote: Originally posted by m1tanker78 | Manifest, you're correct. Electrolysis of molten salts is very dangerous. Lye in particular has a habit of spitting profusely in my experience. A
properly built Castner cell can yield a good amount of metal and is less dangerous than simply sticking carbons in the melt.
Forget about sodium chlorate. It decomposes at MP and releases oxygen. I haven't tried it but can surmise that it would make
lye electrolysis look like kids play. It reforms sodium chloride anyway..
The thread got off topic a bit but I guess it's ok because the original question was addressed. There are a lot of UK members here and surely one of them can chime in and help you source some lye.
Tank |
Oh stop it you!
I'd imagine another problem would be the Sodium melting straight after it forms. No?
97.72 °C
And Hexavalent PM'd me telling me where to get it, so he deserves a cookie.
Is it hard in Texas to source this stuff or to buy glassware
Apparently it's illegal to own a beaker there.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Manifest |
It's too bad that I live in the UK.
How on Earth have you had Sodium lying around but not Lye? :?
I guess I'll just have to keep looking then.
Thanks for replying |
You can buy unadulterated NaOH from most hardware stores in the UK. Cheap as chips too! Pure NaOH is hard to make, don't bother, just buy!
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Hexavalent
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Cheers. Chocolate Hob-Nobs are my favourite
Yes, unless you have a permit IIRC.
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
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m1tanker78
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I remember researching Texas laws a while back because I wanted to start ordering real glassware. I got tired of doing soda bottle chemistry and I'll
bet cyanureeves can testify as well. Apparently, lab glassware must be registered. Authorities are real trigger-happy about this type of thing around
here. There isn't a single lab supply outlet or store anywhere around here. There are some further upstate but they thumb their noses at the
lil-ol-mes. Thank goodness for ebay!
Sheesh... I better revisit those regs. 
| Quote: | | And Hexavalent PM'd me telling me where to get it, so he deserves a cookie. |
See, now, I told you so!
Tank
Chemical CURIOSITY KILLED THE CATalyst.
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Manifest
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| Quote: Originally posted by m1tanker78 | I remember researching Texas laws a while back because I wanted to start ordering real glassware. I got tired of doing soda bottle chemistry and I'll
bet cyanureeves can testify as well. Apparently, lab glassware must be registered. Authorities are real trigger-happy about this type of thing around
here. There isn't a single lab supply outlet or store anywhere around here. There are some further upstate but they thumb their noses at the
lil-ol-mes. Thank goodness for ebay!
Sheesh... I better revisit those regs.
| Quote: | | And Hexavalent PM'd me telling me where to get it, so he deserves a cookie. |
See, now, I told you so!
Tank |
Oh god, imagine customs opened your package from ebay.
Do you not shit yourself everytime you order a beaker from ebay?
It's so stupid that over the Meth problem they go as far as to prohibit glassware or a hobby.
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AndersHoveland
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Industrially, before modern electrolysis was used, the route to NaOH involved a long series of steps:
1. reaction of sulfuric acid with sodium chloride
2. reduction of sodium sulfate with coal
3 reaction of sodium sulfide with calcium carbonate (CaS was completely insoluble)
4. reaction of sodium carbonate with slaked lime (itself made by roasting limestone at high temperatures) in water, and precipitating out the waste
CaCO3 to leave NaOH in solution.
This involved the Leblanc process. Later the Solvay process supplanted it, before itself finally becoming obsolete when cheap electricity became
available for electrolysis of salt water.
[Edited on 9-12-2012 by AndersHoveland]
I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying lets remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
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m1tanker78
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It isn't prohibited. It is, however, heavily regulated. I don't like the idea of being on any blacklist but at the same time, I have nothing to hide.
I personally hate this type of encroachment on my liberty and privacy. In reality, if they REALLY want to screw you, the authorities can stick you
with an 'intent to manufacture' charge. I have several friends in LE from local on up to federal. For the most part, they say that as long as I'm not
doing anything 'illegal', the worst that can happen is that my glassware can be confiscated. I suppose it would be a good idea to register myself
(shudder) to help my cause if they ever did come poking around. Still, it sucks to be dragged through the mud when you've done nothing wrong.
If any fellow Texan hobby chemists are interested, here it is right from the horse's mouth:
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RegulatoryServices/narcotics/na...
Ironically, I've seen reports of megalabs in Mexico that are mass-producing Meth. Their precursors are shipped by cargo ships [mostly] from China. The
drug runners are becoming more and more brazen at the U.S./Mex border so if the laws of economics still hold up, well, I won't get into that.
At least there's no application fee for the permit. Sheeez! 
Tank
Chemical CURIOSITY KILLED THE CATalyst.
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Manifest
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| Quote: Originally posted by m1tanker78 |
It isn't prohibited. It is, however, heavily regulated. I don't like the idea of being on any blacklist but at the same time, I have nothing to hide.
I personally hate this type of encroachment on my liberty and privacy. In reality, if they REALLY want to screw you, the authorities can stick you
with an 'intent to manufacture' charge. I have several friends in LE from local on up to federal. For the most part, they say that as long as I'm not
doing anything 'illegal', the worst that can happen is that my glassware can be confiscated. I suppose it would be a good idea to register myself
(shudder) to help my cause if they ever did come poking around. Still, it sucks to be dragged through the mud when you've done nothing wrong.
If any fellow Texan hobby chemists are interested, here it is right from the horse's mouth:
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RegulatoryServices/narcotics/na...
Ironically, I've seen reports of megalabs in Mexico that are mass-producing Meth. Their precursors are shipped by cargo ships [mostly] from China. The
drug runners are becoming more and more brazen at the U.S./Mex border so if the laws of economics still hold up, well, I won't get into that.
At least there's no application fee for the permit. Sheeez!
Tank |
Do you watch Breaking Bad?
Anyway, for the record I've thought of another idea I don't think anyone has suggested yet.
Heating baking soda to make sodium carbonate and reacting this with the calcium hydroxide.
Yields sodium hydroxide and calcium carbonate.
Calcium carbonate is not very soluble in water whereas sodium hydroxide is.
Also, sodium carbonate could be recycled
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