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Emmasis
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What about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=316t0TM1EUU
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Thebrain
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What's the objection to ammonium nitrate? Not only is it safe to handle, it's cheap isn't easy to detonate. Try the standard "tannerite" formulation.
One pound of prilled ammonium nitrate (often available at hardware stores) mixed with about a teaspoon of powdered aluminum yields a very nice boom.
The usual disclaimer is that you don't mix until just before using, but it's still pretty stable even when mixed. I saw an episode of Mythbusters in
which they tried to detonated it by dropping it from heights and crashing cars containing tannerite and it wouldn't blow.
Any high powered round will set if off though.
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Swede
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Quote: Originally posted by Emmasis  | Yes, I looked there, it was $4.00 #.
that would be fine if there was no shipping involved, with shipping it puts it at $8.00 #ish.
I will read more on cheddite mixes and converting Calcium AN into pure AN.
| Quote: Originally posted by Swede | Could you not order the AN from that link I provided? Technical grade prilled AN, 50 lb for less than $3 per pound... good stuff. I haven't seen
disclaimers that they (or other exploding target makers) cannot ship to certain states, although I may be incorrect there.
Red Jacket firearms (from the show) claims to sell a binary that is sensitive to .22LR. I would not want to mess with anything more sensitive than
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Uh, 50 pounds of AN is $140, + shipping. Your math is wrong. Or you didn't drop the box down.
You're not going to find other oxidizers cheaper than three bucks a pound unless you are a farmer or own a perchlorate factory.
AN = least expensive and most safe. If this logic doesn't click, then I don't know what else to say.
Now if you want to do small-scale experiments for the pleasure of the knowledge obtained, then go for it. But there's a reason cheddites, chlorates,
perchlorates, etc are no longer really used industrially. People have been badly hurt or killed.
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Emmasis
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"Uh, 50 pounds of AN is $140, + shipping. Your math is wrong. Or you didn't drop the box down"
But, you HAVE to place an order to find out what shipping will be.
That is where these places get you.
[Edited on 16-7-2012 by Emmasis]
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caverjamie
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I did not realize AN/AL could be detonated with gunfire until I found out about Tannerite. It got me thinking about other "safe" explosives that
could be produced easily that could also be detonated in that manner. His question came up in a search for information on this subject.
I wondered if Nitromethane with Diethylaminoethanol additive would be sesitive to a .223 bullet - I'm betting it is. Of course, probably not the most
cost effective alternative.
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Bert
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Why reinvent the wheel.
http://www.boomershoot.org/general/eg.htm
Ethylene glycol sold as anti-freeze- Walmart's cheapest is fine.
No Aluminum is needed.
Small enough quantities of Potassium chlorate that you could produce it from thermal decomposition of hypochlorite bleach and either water softener or
dietary Potassium chloride.
(start at page 14)
http://utahpyro.org/compositions/PreparingChlorates.pdf
Don't even think about storage, once mixed it may set itself on fire after a couple of days exposure to sunlight...
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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detonator
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What about this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrazene_explosive
This is very sensitive to the impact, but the military often use.
[Edited on 31-8-2012 by detonator]
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AJKOER
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A Safer NCl3?
OK, haven't try this (proceed at your own risk) but if true one would have access to one of the top explosives in a possibly safer medium assuming one
has mastered a safe preparation route. Start (and I would recommend always) work with only small quantities and a lot of safety gear.
Must have access to CCl4 or CHCl3 (or be able to prepare the later).
1. Prepare or acquire (NH4)2SO4. Preparation: Add NH4OH to Epsom's salt, and filter out the Mg(OH)2.
2. Add a weak acid (Boric, Acetic, Ascorbic,..) or a dilute mineral acid (Sulfuric, Phosphoric, Hydrochloric,..) or a dilute solution of NaHSO4 to
Bleach (NaOCl). This creates Hypochlorous acid (HOCl). Note, if your acid is too strong, you get Chlorine gas, and by using HOCl we are trying to
avoid it, but Cl2 is still a valid alternate route (ventilation/mask required).
3. Treat (1) with (2) and apply mild heat (or follow other directions for NCl3). Carefully collect avoiding sunlight, strong light, dust or other
organic material (degrease with NaOH to remove even fingerprints) the yellow oily liquid (one could have the nonpolar solvent CHCl3 or CCl4 above
forming at most a 10% solution) and store cold in the dark. Chloroform and CCl4 are described as reputedly safe NCl3 mediums (described as 'mildly
stable' to 'undetonatable' by some, see http://parazite.nn.fi/roguesci/index.php/t-182-p-3.html ) to further employ NCl3 for reaction purposes. As to how safe, well I would still treat
it like it was the usual NCl3 as it explosive proneness may be a function of medium specific concentration.
Now, shoot it from a very very great distance (for 3 ml I would recommend a distance of 300 feet). If this does not cause it to explode, well it is
indeed safe to work with. Note, if one doubles the mass, the power of the explosion goes up approximately by the cube or eight times (triple - 27
times, 10 fold - a 1,000 times).
[Edited on 1-9-2012 by AJKOER]
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detonator
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The accident occurred in China, is about NCl3 and use NCl3 synthetic N (N3) 3 of an accident.
For sensitive explosives, synthesis and use to be more careful, it's a very bad temper.
One of my friends preparation of a point N (N3) 3, the equation is shown below:
Electrolytic NH4Cl-HCl solution (pH = 4):
NH4Cl + 2HCl = NCl3 + 3H2
NCl3 with NaN3 reaction:
NCl3 + 3NaN3 = N (N3) 3 + 3NaCl
He is strictly in accordance with the experimental standard experiments, but also in order to prevent the emergence of greater danger (local
temperature of about 20 to 33 ° C), specifically used only 0.25gNaN3, and reacted in an ice-salt bath, the result was a tragedy.
Fortunately, he directly assembled instrument electrolyzer and flasks connected, turn on the power and then ran away (about 30m), the only camera in
there, the results he's okay, the camera disappeared. However, the photos and all equipment are gone.
In fact, afterwards, he estimated the damage effect, found that in addition to N (N3) 3 outside, NCl3, H2 was bombed scene, one slightly pungent
smell.
However, everything disappeared.
Warning:
Looks simple experiment is likely to be very dangerous, and even the rest of your life you can only do this one experiment;
The spirit of exploration is certainly good, but pay attention to safety, from trace amounts to semi-micro, last longer constant synthesis. If his day
more than 2g NaN3 will suffer a fatal injury.
Fans, especially playing with explosives to be careful, most people play the explosives will slack off, and no longer pay attention to details, which
is the most important guarantee of security.
[Edited on 1-9-2012 by detonator]
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detonator
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By the way, the sentence: In China, many enthusiasts are the common pursuit of security and insensitive.No pursuit of sensitive explosives.
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AJKOER
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Per a reference supplied in a prior thread by Plante1999 (see http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=16203 ), the NCl3/CHCl3 solution should be repeatedly washed (shaken for 5 minutes) with a
5% (NH4)2SO4 solution and dried with CaCl2 (to remove unreacted HOCl and water in the solution, which I suspect, could slowly decompose the NCl3).
It should be stored in the dark under (NH4)4SO4 solution and washed and dried as described above before use. Max strength of a safe solution is cited
as 18%.
I suspect that 'safe' solutions are not prone to detonation, but with respect to the question as to whether solutions at over 20% are still marginally
safer and capable of being detonated is a possibility. Understanding the process by which a solution is made safer would be helpful.
___________________________________
The chemistry of NCl3 synthesis:
With Chlorine:
6 Cl2 + (NH4)2SO4 --> 2 NCl3 + H2SO4 + 6 HCl
With HOCl, noting that 6 Cl2 + 6 H2O = 6 HOCl + 6 HCl
6 HOCl + (NH4)2SO4 --> 2 NCl3 + H2SO4 + 6 H2O
and the creation of NCl3 should proceed at a solution temperature under 50 C (will form between 20 C to 90 C, see http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/chin.199646028/ab... ) and a sufficiently low pH (one reference note a pH between 2.5 and 7.1 for the
formation of NCl3, see Table I at "Nitrogen Containing Disinfection By-Products.." at http://www.pwtag.org/researchdocs/NITROGEN%20CONTAINING%20DI... ). However, note that an excess of acid (or Chlorine) is not advisable due to a
reverse reaction. To quote (reference cited below): "Therefore, so long as the liquid is alkaline from the presence of ammonia the chief product will
be nitrogen. The reaction NH4Cl + 3 Cl2 = NCl3 + 4 HCl is reversible; with a dilute solution it proceeds in the above described direction (perhaps
owing to the affinity of the hydrochloric acid for the excess of water), but with a strong solution of hydrochloric acid, it takes the opposite
direction"
Now, once the NCl3 has been created, I would recommend adding NH4HSO4 as the decomposition reaction per one source (see "The principles of
chemistry", Volume 2, by Dmitry Ivanovich Mendeleyev, George Kamensky, Thomas Atkinson Lawson, page 476, link: http://books.google.com/books?id=GukWyQnHW6wC&pg=PA476&a...
) is given as:
NCl3 + 3H20 + H2S04 = NH4HS04 + 3 HCl0
to drive the reaction to the left.
[Edited on 2-9-2012 by AJKOER]
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niertap
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Isn't every explosive shock sensitive? I was under the impression a shock causing something to detonate essentially defined high explosives.
Ignorance is bliss
Outliers in life are modeled by chemical kinetics
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Emmasis
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Most primary explosives are.
But, they are way to dangerous for my application
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Bert
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That's about as safe a mixture as you're going to have with "noob" level chemistry skills and easy access to ingredients. The large visual signature
is a plus, but the scattering of hot thermite reaction products would keep me from trying this on a range with dry grass/brush in the vicinity.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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detonator
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potassium chlorate + phosphorus red + calcium carbonate.
An extremely sensitive mixture.
[Edited on 9-12-2012 by detonator]
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Bert
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Armstrong's mix is not something I'd want to carry down to the backstop at a rifle range, it's far more sensitive than required for the stated use.
Back when they sold throw down crackers of this type, there were plenty of bad explosions when manufacturers tried to ship cases of them... The use of
Phosphorous in consumer fireworks is banned in the USA for a good reason.
http://yarchive.net/explosives/armstrongs_mixture.html
EVERY person I know who has tried this mixture (including myself) has had an accidental explosion, only the severity of the damage has varied. Red
Arsenic and Chlorate mixes are just about as bad.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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tarzan
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Emmasis, on 14/7/2012 (and afterwards) asked about easily available explosives.
Everyone looks for cheap ammonium nitrate for targets; try Walmart coldpacks at ~2lb/$10.
You can also get ~40 lbs for ~$50 by reacting 155-0-0 calcium ammonium nitrate fertilizer with ammonium sulfate fertilizer in water and filtering off
soluble AN from insoluble calcium sulfate ; both fertilizers are readily available unlike ammonium nitrate.As for using calcium hypochlorite - -
the armed forces' improvised munitions handbook recommends 3 parts of petroleum naphtha to 27 of calcium hypochlorite in a metal pipe as a low
explosive "detonable" by blasting cap. So maybe a high velocity bullet might explode the same mixture under suitable confinement. I know from
experimentation that 75% pool hypochlorite mixed with a stoichiometrically correct ratio of sulfur (and possibly non stoichiometric ratios also) will
ignite by hammer strike and spontaneously ignite after a delay. I'd like to see target range reports for various hypochlorite mixtures.
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Fantasma4500
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i think it could possibly be of economical advantage to make KClO4 into NH4ClO4 to then sentisize ammonal with, but there would be some chemistry
involved in that ofcourse
you could take calcium nitrate and mix with ammonium carbonate to get ammonium nitrate and calcium carbonate..
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