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Chemistry Alchemist
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Production of Hydrochloric Acid
Hydrochloric acid is one of my favorite acids, but i havent managed to go to the shops recently to buy any, and i really need it for somthing, and
would try anything to make it. well maybe not anything but anything that i can do 
Phosphoric Acid reacts with Sodium Chloride to form Sodium Phosphate and HCl
H3PO4 + NaCl = NaH2PO4 + HCl
could i do the same reaction but replace the sodium chloride with Copper chloride? or will the HCl react with the copper phosphate?
[Edited on 26-9-2011 by Chemistry Alchemist]
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AndersHoveland
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Can hydrochloric acid actually be displaced from sodium chloride, using phosphoric acid, which is a weak acid? Someone had previously asked this
question in the forum, and I was not sure about the answer.
But yes, if it works for NaCl, it will also work for CuCl2.
At room temperature, HCl reacts with sodium phosphate, to make sodium chloride and phosphoric acid. The H3PO4 is displaced, since HCl is a strong acid
and H3PO4 is a "weak" acid. But distilling the mixture could likely cause the reverse reaction, since HCl is much more volatile than H3PO4.
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Chemistry Alchemist
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I done a small scale reaction of 85% phosphoric acid with sodium chloride, after a while there was a slight smell of HCl, so if it is possible with
Copper Chloride, just dissolve asmuch CuCl2 into little water and then poor in the acid and then filter the insoluble copper phosphate leaving HCl...
or could i do it with out the water?
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nezza
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85% phosphoric acid can be used to make HCl quite easily. The deciding feature is the volatility of the acid, not necessarily the strength. Although
the reaction
H3PO4 + NaCl <> NaH2PO4 + HCl
is shifted well to the left warming the mixture causes the volatile HCl to escape and the reaction proceeds to the right. The same reaction can be
used to make pure HBr as phosphoric acid is not an oxidising agent like sulphuric acid. HBr is an even stronger acid than HCl. I have performed both
of these syntheses. I don't know if you can use it to make HI as well as I have not tried that reaction yet.
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simba
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Quote: Originally posted by nezza  | 85% phosphoric acid can be used to make HCl quite easily. The deciding feature is the volatility of the acid, not necessarily the strength. Although
the reaction
H3PO4 + NaCl <> NaH2PO4 + HCl
is shifted well to the left warming the mixture causes the volatile HCl to escape and the reaction proceeds to the right. The same reaction can be
used to make pure HBr as phosphoric acid is not an oxidising agent like sulphuric acid. HBr is an even stronger acid than HCl. I have performed both
of these syntheses. I don't know if you can use it to make HI as well as I have not tried that reaction yet. |
It will work for making HI from iodide salt also.
Another good method for making HCl is sodium chloride + bisulfate salt.
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blogfast25
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Much better with 'Draino': conc. H2SO4. Kvetched to death here if you look for it...
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SmashGlass
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Simplest way is to get some sulfuric acid (old car battery acid if
you are really desperate) and salt NaCl. Make sure you got
something to house th reaction in as it is a bit exothermic and
somewhere to bubble the gas through like in water, ether or
methanol - otherwise instant tear gas WWI style.
If it ain't broke don't fix it....
Now where are my screwdrivers?  |
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blogfast25
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Dilute H2SO4, like car battery acid, doesn't work for HCl generators. You need 95 % or higher (for best yields) H2SO4.
[Edited on 7-10-2011 by blogfast25]
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SmashGlass
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
Dilute H2SO4, like car battery acid, doesn't work for HCl generators. You need 95 % or higher (for best yields) H2SO4.
[Edited on 7-10-2011 by blogfast25] |
My apologies you are correct. Old car batts contain mostly water.
I have only used 95-98% Sulfuric acid for this myself.
But in my defence I did say "If you are really desperate"
I didn't say how to get the sulfuric out of it and refine it.
If it ain't broke don't fix it....
Now where are my screwdrivers? |
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Chemistry Alchemist
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Couldnt you just boil down a old car battery?
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rstar
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You can react NaCl with NaHSO4 if you don't have access to H2SO4
Here's a NurdRage video on that :
Preparation of Hydrochloric acid
"A tidy laboratory means a lazy chemist "
- Jöns Jacob Berzelius
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simba
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Yes...but some of the sulfuric acid will start to fume as the concentration rises.
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Chemistry Alchemist
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doesn't that mean the the acid is getting a higher concentration? more then 70% or somthing?
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simba
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Yes, but a small portion of it will evaporate along with the water if you want to get a high concentration, like 95-98%.
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ThePhDChemist
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Don't bother with it. I will soon make video HOW TO MAKE HYDROCHLORIC ACID FROM SODIUM CHLORIDE AND ELECTRICITY, it will be CHEAP!
From sodium chloride I am making chlorine, hydrogen chloride, sodium hypochlorite, sodium chlorate, sodium perchlorate, sodium hydroxide....
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Retard-3000
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@ ThePhDChemist, you said in a previous thread that you were interested in chemistry and wanted to learn about it, and then you comment saying you'll
make a host of videos on chemical synthesis and quite honestly i don't see this happening anytime soon judging by your lack of knowledge in chemistry,
i doubt you have the knowledge and equipment to perform some of the tasks you have mentioned in previous threads let alone do it safely.
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ScienceSquirrel
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| Quote: Originally posted by ThePhDChemist | Don't bother with it. I will soon make video HOW TO MAKE HYDROCHLORIC ACID FROM SODIUM CHLORIDE AND ELECTRICITY, it will be CHEAP!
From sodium chloride I am making chlorine, hydrogen chloride, sodium hypochlorite, sodium chlorate, sodium perchlorate, sodium hydroxide....
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Electrochemistry is seldom the cheapest option.
That is why it is avoided industrially unless there is no alternative or there are huge amounts of cheap off peak nuclear or hydroelectricity
available.
It would cost me far more to run a practical cell capable of making say 100ml of 10% sodium hypochlorite a day than I could buy the same amount of the
compound in 2.5 litre drums.
I am paying less than domestic rate for my electricity but it is still a lot more than a big chlor alkali plant is paying.
[Edited on 18-10-2011 by ScienceSquirrel]
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ThePhDChemist
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| Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel | | Quote: Originally posted by ThePhDChemist | Don't bother with it. I will soon make video HOW TO MAKE HYDROCHLORIC ACID FROM SODIUM CHLORIDE AND ELECTRICITY, it will be CHEAP!
From sodium chloride I am making chlorine, hydrogen chloride, sodium hypochlorite, sodium chlorate, sodium perchlorate, sodium hydroxide....
|
Electrochemistry is seldom the cheapest option.
That is why it is avoided industrially unless there is no alternative or there are huge amounts of cheap off peak nuclear or hydroelectricity
available.
It would cost me far more to run a practical cell capable of making say 100ml of 10% sodium hypochlorite a day than I could buy the same amount of the
compound in 2.5 litre drums.
I am paying less than domestic rate for my electricity but it is still a lot more than a big chlor alkali plant is paying.
[Edited on 18-10-2011 by ScienceSquirrel] |
Really? 
I tought it is cheapest!
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ScienceSquirrel
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Your unit cost depends on your situation.
Stick your aluminium plant next to a giant Norwegian hydro plant and agree to take all their off peak power and you will get it for buttons.
Most amateur chemists are not in this happy state and they are paying the standard domestic tariff which is not cheap in most places, around here you
are looking at EUR 10 to 20 cents per KWh.
I pay a bit less than that but I use it to boil beer which I sell but it is still a major cost of my business.
If I wanted to use the power to make sodium hypochlorite and persulphate which I use as barrel and floor washes my own home brew gear would cost far
more than buying the product in.
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Aqua_Fortis_100%
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There is a way to HCl that I never see a person using, but if works, from standpoint of precursors, the most OTC... Just NaCl, sand and water...
Mixed sand and NaCl are strongly heated (~700°C) and a stream of water vapour is passed over it..
2 NaCl + SiO2 + H2O --> Na2SiO3 + 2 HCl
The only drawback is the need of high temperature and a system/pipes that stands to this temperature without melting or reacting with HCl...
In this thread I showed I patent I found that (but using CaCl2)..
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11875#...
Unfortunately not tried it yet
[Edited on 19-10-2011 by Aqua_Fortis_100%]
"The secret of freedom lies in educating people, whereas the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant."
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simba
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| Quote: Originally posted by Aqua_Fortis_100% | There is a way to HCl that I never see a person using, but if works, from standpoint of precursors, the most OTC... Just NaCl, sand and water...
Mixed sand and NaCl are strongly heated (~700°C) and a stream of water vapour is passed over it..
2 NaCl + SiO2 + H2O --> Na2SiO3 + 2 HCl
The only drawback is the need of high temperature and a system/pipes that stands to this temperature without melting or reacting with HCl...
In this thread I showed I patent I found that (but using CaCl2)..
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11875#...
Unfortunately not tried it yet
[Edited on 19-10-2011 by Aqua_Fortis_100%] |
Very interesting indeed...maybe some catalyst could lower the temperature of the reaction.
One problem one could be facing also, is cooling the very hot hcl gas that will come.
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Aqua_Fortis_100%
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shivas, maybe with some eutetic mix of chlorides (Ca, Na, K, etc) you will need lower temps..
TONS of eutetic mix with respective temperatures can be found here:
http://ras.material.tohoku.ac.jp/~molten/ ---->
http://ras.material.tohoku.ac.jp/~molten/molten_eut_query1.p...
ex:
BaCl2-CaCl2-NaCl / Composition (mol percent): 16.3-46.9-36.7 / Eutectic Temp.: 440 °C
To me, wasting BaCl2 to make HCl is like wasting 70% HNO3 to make agricultural ammonium nitrate .. So IMHO only compositions using NaCl-KCl-CaCl2
would be interesting to this endeavour.. But thats may not be your case, if BaCO3 is widely avaliable to you...
[Edited on 20-10-2011 by Aqua_Fortis_100%]
"The secret of freedom lies in educating people, whereas the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant."
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SmashGlass
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Hmmmm.... I hear sulfuric acid can be used as a catalyst.
I think you could get this reaction to work at below room temperatures with this catalyst.
Just drop enough onto the NaCl whilst stirring over an ice bath.
Oh just wait a minute!
I think we just went full circle on this.
Hehehe
Talk about making something very simple waaay more complex than what it was originally.
Sorry for ruining your fun everyone.
If it ain't broke don't fix it....
Now where are my screwdrivers? |
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Aqua_Fortis_100%
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| Quote: Originally posted by SmashGlass |
Hmmmm.... I hear sulfuric acid can be used as a catalyst.
I think you could get this reaction to work at below room temperatures with this catalyst.
Just drop enough onto the NaCl whilst stirring over an ice bath.
Oh just wait a minute!
I think we just went full circle on this.
Hehehe
Talk about making something very simple waaay more complex than what it was originally.
Sorry for ruining your fun everyone. |
100% agreed. Much less mess and easier, cleaner synth..
But what you do if you realise that from yesterday to today the concentrated sufuric has run out of shelfs and you can buy it only max 2 lts per month
(for individuals) and your name will be going to police list? This is the situation of my country, unfortunately..
I can use 30% battery acid too, which is free, but is too much water to get out and is messy..
Well, banning H2SO4 is actually very hard (almost like banning water), but watch out the pigs.. They insist in put on market impure chemicals, erase
others..
This is why I said
| Quote: | | ... but if works, FROM STANDPOINT OF PRECURSORS, the most OTC... |
Who can prevent you to get NaCl, sand, water and heat?
Thats the point..
"The secret of freedom lies in educating people, whereas the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant."
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SmashGlass
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OK then.
If that is what you are after, how illegal is pottery in your country?
You can custom make your own crucibles that can channel the HCl gas into water.
Glazed ceramics are resistant to heat and HCl.
This would take the sand/salt mix on the bottom and could be placed on hot coals.
Or a Bunsen burner for the higher tech setups.
Viola!
So everyone join up to your local community college pottery classes and start firing some ceramics.
Pottery it's not just fun it's cool too ! 
If it ain't broke don't fix it....
Now where are my screwdrivers? |
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