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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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Loudest explosion per gram is quite a variable concept. Per gram of unconfined material? Per gram in thick cardboard tubing? Actual highest output of
acoustic energy, or perceived loudest? After all, high explosives make a high "crack" that often seems less loud than the lower "boom" of pyrotechnic
materials.
In other words, I doubt there are any hard and fast numbers for this sort of thing. You might as well ask which pyrotechnic formula is the most
beautiful per gram.
Oh, and just FYI, if you're interested in discussing activities likely to bring concerned neighbors and/or agents of the law to your home,
sciencemadness.org isn't the place to do it. This isn't Fingerless McPhee's Mad Bomber Knowledge Emporium.
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Loony
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Apologies if I am trangressing forum rules. I am new. No bad intentions or desire to upset neighbours. It was an experiment carried out at school
and was surprisingly loud in adjacent classrooms. The material was unconfined on a shallow metal dish.
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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No harm done. I just got the unfortunate first impression that you might not have very much regard for safety and responsibility. If this was a
classroom demonstration, no problem.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Picric acid can be made from any aromatic compound! If you are a good organochemist, have good synthesis pathway skills and common sense!
Benzen is expensive and phenol too!
Use vanilin from artificial flavoured suggar!
(HO)C6H4(-CH=O); no mather where the aldehyd group is in mixed acid it will oxydises and leave as CO2 upon heating!
Use toluen or xylen from synthetic lounge!
Mix with diluted KMnO4 to oxydise lateral alkylic chains; then add HCl and collect the unsoluble benzenic acids and diacids with ether or alcohol;dry
the acids after evaporation of solvant; then add to 70% HNO3 and boil under reflux to get mononitrocompound and CO2 evolution; you should have
nitrobenzene! Reduce with Fe/HCl or Sn/HCl or (NH4)2S to get aniline, diazotate it with NaNO2 (one without isolation from the previous batch and boil
under reflux in ethanol...to get phenol!
Use paradichlorobenzen (used in pipirooms to give it a fresh smell or as antimoth)
Cl-C6H4-Cl + HNO3 -reflux and boil-> 1,4 dichloro 2 nitrobenzene!
Isolate and make it boil under reflux in saturated NaOH solution to get 4chloro2nitrophenol and 2nitropararesorcinol!
The 2nitropararesorcino might be obtained immediately by fusing the dichloronitrocompound in solid NaOH!
This later compound is interesting since:
HO-C6H3(NO2)-OH -HNO3/H2SO4->
O=C(C(NO2)=C(NO2))2C=O
and
HO-C6(NO2)4-OH
Both powerfull sensitive HE (over the TNP)!
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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PHILOU Zrealone
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PbO2 is a form of Pb(4+)!
PbO2 + 4HO-C6H2(NO2)3 --> Pb(O-C6H2(NO2)3)4 + 2H2O
No doubt the salt exploded while heated!
The picrates must be done under no heating conditions by methathesis!
Na, K or NH4 picrates saturated solutions are allowed to react with concentrated nitrate salt of the desired compound!
Pb(NO3)2 + Na/K/NH4 picrate --> Pb(II) picrate precipitate + Na/K/NH4 nitrate!
Wash with clear water!
Never recristallise...you would get bigger cristalls if you are not experienced...thus stress in growing cristalls might induce detonation!
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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vulture
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About the red goo, I found something interesting.
NO2 groups seem to color a substance red when they are connected through an oxygen atom instead of the usual nitrogen atom.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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QUote:
"posted on 9-9-2002 at 23:31
I already answered the red picric acid question elsewere in this forum!"
Answer is nitronic acid rearangement!
CH3-C(OH)=C(CH3)-NO2 <--> CH3-CO-CH(CH3)-NO2
CH3-CO-CH(CH3)-NO2 <-OH(-)-> CH3-CO-C(CH3)=N(O)-OH
Thus beta nitro enols undergo enol-ceton equilibrium to provide a alfa hydrogenated nitro derivative in tiny % that gives the yellow colour; the later
upon the action of a base undergo the nitronic rearangement
cf NM:
CH3-NO2 + NaOH --> CH2-NO2(-) + Na(+) --> CH2=N(O)-ONa
The later compound is deep orange to deep red-brown!
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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shadeT
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i found this method of making picric acid : 2 grams ASA , 10 ml H2SO4 and 4 grams of KNO3 . is this method OK ???? i didn't made large amounts. i
did just how it said in the procedure . it was ok , but i don't know about the yield ... i did some search on the net and found that the
theoretical yield should be 80% . my TNP is still in ice water . today i'm going't to let it outside to dry out . i was meaning to put TNP
in a small plastic bag so that it doesn't form picrates and than in a film carnister and then a electric detonator ... maybe this could be the
safest detonation , what about the storage . i searched and i found that the safest method is to disolve it in water and so to store . is this all ok
? thanks !
here is a picture of TNP in ice water after the procedure ::
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chemoleo
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I think I read somewhere that the incorrect making of TNP results in the formation of polynitrophenol compounds, with no specific composition, which
then forms the alleged red goo.... try it, it burns!
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IgnorantlyIntelligent
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Picric acid (TNP) & AN
Instead of making a new topic, it would probably be best to post here in this old topic. I was wondering, given TNPs high VOD and good brisance could
it be a good choice for something to be mixed with powdered/dried AN in charges weighing under 1 pound and with a ratio of about 2:1 AN:TNP. I guess
my question is is there any chance that TNP could react to the AN in a bad way? NG and almost all other nitrates behave fine and are used frequently
with AN as a sensitizer but I never hear much about TNP/AN.
PTN used to be used as a commercial booster for many years and commercial boosters are up to 1lb in weight so I would imagin it to be safe.
[Edited on 21-1-2004 by IgnorantlyIntelligent]
[Edited on 21-1-2004 by IgnorantlyIntelligent]
\"People fear from ignorance what they do not have the intelligence to understand\"
\"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation.\"
\"A fool would rather not question, a soldier is taught not to question, a slave dares not question.\"
\"To fight for nothing is to love nothing, to die for something is to have lived for something.\"
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guaguanco
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If I were going to try making picric acid from asprin, I'd first isolate pure salicylic acid (dil. NaOH, filtration, alkaline hydrolysis,
reacidification, filtration, recrystallization). Then perform a nitration of pure salicylic acid following a tested recipe. There a variety of
binders that might be in the tablet, and nitration of the mixture will make it much harder to get a pure product in decent yield. (The red glop people
are getting probably has at least half-a-dozen different reaction products in it.)
Pure picric acid is a nice yellow crystalline material that's not a great explosive in itself. Picrate salts are easily prepared since picric
acid is a pretty strong acid.
Pure products require pure starting materials.
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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Most people do purify their aspirin tablets to isolate crystalline material first. Hot acetone works great, though it's hard to finish the
filtration before crystallization takes over if you're trying to gravity filter. When I nitrated acetylsalicylic acid isolated in this fashion,
using sulfuric acid and potassium nitrate, I was able to recover beautiful canary-yellow crystals that stained everything they touched, formed salts
with alkali carbonates with evolution of CO2, and otherwise behaved as I would expect picric acid to. I never saw any "red goo." However, I
didn't have a pure reference sample of TNP to compare with, and it's quite possible that I had lower-nitrated phenols in there also. It
would interesting to repeat this experiment and run TLC on the product.
Madscientist was of course just begging for trouble by not bothering to purify his starting materials at all.
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guaguanco
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Polverone
Most people do purify their aspirin tablets to isolate crystalline material first. Hot acetone works great, though it's hard to finish the
filtration before crystallization takes over if you're trying to gravity filter. When I nitrated acetylsalicylic acid isolated in this fashion,
using sulfuric acid and potassium nitrate, I was able to recover beautiful canary-yellow crystals that stained everything they touched, formed salts
with alkali carbonates with evolution of CO2, and otherwise behaved as I would expect picric acid to. I never saw any "red goo." However, I
didn't have a pure reference sample of TNP to compare with, and it's quite possible that I had lower-nitrated phenols in there also. It
would interesting to repeat this experiment and run TLC on the product.
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That all sounds spot-on! Why can't more people be like you?
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Mumbles
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Picric and AN mixed would probably for some Ammonium Picrate. This would ad to the mixture's sensitivity, but most likely not enough to make it
extremely dangerously sensitive or anything. It might even come in handy if you theoretically decide to test the mix out.
I also don't know how strong of a base(or if it even is one at all) AN is. IMO some Ammonium Picrate would form regardless.
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Chemical Peach
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Reaction time/heating
I am not familiar with all the syntheses people refer to in all their detail, but it seems to me that people do not heat for very long periods, if any
at all, inyour procedures for TNP, if i remeber correctly in 'advanced practical organic chemistry' for example the procudure call for the
phenol (/phenol derivative) to be heated with the sulphuric acid to fully form phenol sulphonic acid before introduction of the nitrate (be it HNO3,
XNO3 etc). The synthesis i'm refering too also calling for the reaction to be held at around 100C for 1 1/2 hours for the reaction to complete
fully. Possibly you are all aware of this and know of a reason why it is unecessary, but as many of you refer to disapointing yeilds, this may be a
contributing factor.
I have not carried out this synthesis for a while and do not remember and specifics of results, but i may attempt it soon and will be sure to post
information here that could be useful.
pete
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sylla
Alchimiste Belge Notoire
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Have some of you tried to make Picric Acid from different chemicals (instead of ASA/SSA) such as silk ?
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chemoleo
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Rofl 
Silk is protein. The only amino acids that have somethng that resembles a phenol group is phenylalanine and tyrosine. So the yield is definitely not
going to be high, only 2 out of 20 amino acids. First destruction of peptide bonds with HCl at high temp for several hours, then, possibly destructive
sulphonication. Maybe you have some luck there... maybe 
A better one is indigo, a dye that you can get freely. I think with NaOH (I once did it a long time ago) you get sodiumphenolate...
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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sylla
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"other early experimenters obtained picric acid by nitrating various substances such as silk, natural resin, etc ..." They also talk about
wool or horn and indigo.
That's written in J. Akhavan's chemistry of explosives.
So I was wondering if somebody tried it
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Blackhawk
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A brief OT about EBW dets
I have recently gotten some promising results with my explosive bridge wire detonator and after reading a lot of accident reports I want to study high
explosives without the danger of organic peroxide detonators. Most people I see use Manitol Hexanitrate or PETN in their EBW caps, unfortunately these
synthetic sugars are hard to get, Asprin or Oil of Wintergreen seem like a better bet.
My question is that could I use straight TNP or one of it's alkali metal derivatives in an EBW cap, I have not found much on the impact energy in
Joules needed to innitiate them so any info you would have would be a great help.
\"It is a grave error in judgement to mistake me for a corpse\"
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The_Davster
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potassium picrate
http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/potassium_picrate.htm
I believe that it is more sensitive than picric acid, however it doesent seem to be easily detonated.
[Edited on 25-1-2004 by rogue chemist]
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KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun)
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<blockquote>quote:<hr>Picric and AN mixed would probably for some Ammonium Picrate. This would ad to the mixture's sensitivity, but
most likely not enough to make it extremely dangerously sensitive or anything<hr></blockquote>
no nitric is a hell lot more acidic than picric acid. plus the specific character of ammonium picrate is its high <b>in</b>sensitivity
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tom haggen
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I was under the impression that ammonium picrate was an insensitive energetic compound. Thats what it says in megalomania's chemlab. Also NH4NO3
does not have a lower ph level than picric acid, I have found that NH4NO3 when you add NH4NO3 to a ph tester it hardly changes the color. Not to say
that I would want to store NH4NO3 in a metal container for long periods of time.
EDIT: oh duh kaboom said it was insensitive.
[Edited on 29-3-2004 by tom haggen]
[Edited on 29-3-2004 by tom haggen]
N/A
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halogen
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If your trying to make picric acid, I think a good way would be to start with p-cresol or beta-nitrostyrene. Use hydroxylamine to put on some NH2
groups and oxidize it with caro's acid. If that doesnt work, soak it in nitric acid. It's not picric acid, but it might be worth trying...
PS: The oxygen that links the two major rings in sucrose can be oxidized to peroxide. Once youve done that, Thake advantage of all the hydroxyl
groups. Pump it up with nitric acid!!!
Its really worth it!
F. de Lalande and M. Prud'homme showed that a mixture of boric oxide and sodium chloride is decomposed in a stream of dry air or oxygen at a red heat
with the evolution of chlorine.
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Quince
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| Quote: | Originally posted by halogen
PS: The oxygen that links the two major rings in sucrose can be oxidized to peroxide. Once youve done that, Thake advantage of all the hydroxyl
groups. Pump it up with nitric acid!!!
Its really worth it! |
Can anyone confirm this? Have you tried it? How would you go about this oxidation without burning up the sucrose?
\"One of the surest signs of Conrad\'s genius is that women dislike his books.\" --George Orwell
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GTOzoom
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I was wondering if it is possible to make picric acid via sulfuric acid and ammonium nitrate instead of potassium nitrate. I remember reading about it
on roguesci a while back but the forums are currently undergoing maintenance and i can't seem to find any information elsewhere.
thanks for the time!
-Just because you\'re paranoid, doesn\'t mean they aren\'t out to get you!
[::www.gtozoom.com::]
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