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Panache
International Hazard
Posts: 1290
Registered: 18-10-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Instead of being my deliverance, she had a resemblance to a Kat named Frankenstein
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
Who would that be? Does panache live in Queensland or NSW? |
ROFL!!!
Firstly i'm not running a home lab, secondly i have been busy these past few weeks. I must say however returning with some glee tonight was enjoyable
until i ventured to this tiresome thread, tiresome because we don't really know what happened to whom. Yes the legislation as stated is silly however
no-one ever expected politicians to pass sensible legislation, i mean do you think any MP's read the countless reams of legislation passed annually,
do you think the police are kept abreast of it properly. The mantra is simple for law enforcement in Australia. Focus on violent crime at a
neighborhood level and focus on organised crime on a national and state level. Thats about all we can afford. It works adequately.
Of concern is that for some time now politicians appear to have become greedy and instead of just passing legislation they have started to want to
force judges into sentencing handcuffs. A point in case is in Victoria if you are caught driving while disqualified for a second time it's a mandatory
6 months incarceration, which the judge can suspend but so what, you're now a criminal. The creeping in of these types of silly mandatory sentences do
away with judicial oversight to stupid laws written by idiots and passed by fools.
Presently i'd happily take my chances with reason and logic and a judge, they are of good nature and able to decipher argument.
Also MagicJigpipe i'm offended that you would brand me as 'having it coming'. What possibly could warrant this stupid assertion. You can go fuck
yourself, i do not like you anymore. Also proper nouns are precluded from capitalizing anything other than the first letter or those after a space, so
swap the capital J for a lowercase one or insert a space before it, however its probably a design element, kuhl ya!!
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chloric1
International Hazard
Posts: 1141
Registered: 8-10-2003
Location: GroupVII of the periodic table
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stoichiometrically Balanced
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Panache
| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
Who would that be? Does panache live in Queensland or NSW? |
Also MagicJigpipe i'm offended that you would brand me as 'having it coming'. What possibly could warrant this stupid assertion. You can go fuck
yourself, i do not like you anymore. Also proper nouns are precluded from capitalizing anything other than the first letter or those after a space, so
swap the capital J for a lowercase one or insert a space before it, however its probably a design element, kuhl ya!! |
Uh, that was Ramiel who said "had it coming"! Besides this forum is not the place for vulgur and hatefull abuse. Lets get our knuckles off the
ground here.
Fellow molecular manipulator
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Panache
International Hazard
Posts: 1290
Registered: 18-10-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Instead of being my deliverance, she had a resemblance to a Kat named Frankenstein
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chloric1
| Quote: | Originally posted by Panache
| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
Who would that be? Does panache live in Queensland or NSW? |
Also MagicJigpipe i'm offended that you would brand me as 'having it coming'. What possibly could warrant this stupid assertion. You can go fuck
yourself, i do not like you anymore. Also proper nouns are precluded from capitalizing anything other than the first letter or those after a space, so
swap the capital J for a lowercase one or insert a space before it, however its probably a design element, kuhl ya!! |
Uh, that was Ramiel who said "had it coming"! Besides this forum is not the place for vulgur and hatefull abuse. Lets get our knuckles off the
ground here. |
Ramiel said had it coming but did not mention anyone, immediately afterwards MagicJigpipe mentioned me, by inference the conclusion would be drawn by
a reader, If anything is disgusting, vulgar and hateful it's the simple ignorant accusation leveled at me because
1-I'm australian
2-have not been on the forum for the previous 2 weeks
And in case you are unfamiliar with common diversion methods the nothing comment regarding the capital in his name is equivalent to saying 'at least i
don't have a big nose' when you know leveling deserved criticism pertinent to the conflict will only further inflame.
I hate trading boring insults, its inane, but i will not tolerate absolutely unfounded malicious crap leveled against me, hence the last post.
Enough now, except I will happily recieve apologies.
Actually no i am rather incensed by this, if you had any idea of the level of transparency i undertake you would cede to my angst regarding this
comment. I mean FFS i gave the police 30 b34 coiled condenser and a cylinder of ammonia from a surplus stockpile i ended up with. They have walked
through this place twice now on my invitation so they are aware of the nature of the place in case of burglary, the front door is open all day
everyday. I take the local high school students through on tours. I do nothing wrong, the devil is in the intent of an activity and is not inherent
simply in all activities of a certain class. I mean this thread is about how ridiculous the home raid was and two pages later our own members spout
similar unvalidated crap and no-ones says boo, are you all so unobjective?
Bah this is nothing more than a gossip column and i'm wasting my time.
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ProChem
Harmless
Posts: 41
Registered: 9-6-2008
Location: Union Beach, NJ. USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Cynical
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Hello All,
I dropped an email to Mr. Deebs asking whether he would give advice to those wanting to set up a home lab. Well perhaps he can't on advice from
counsel. What he sent me was his side of the story and from what I get out of it is have all your Ts' crossed and dot your Is'.
Keep a duplicate notebook, label all bottles with contents and include the CAS number. Store all flamables in approved containers/ cabnet, store
acids from bases, store oxidizers away from organic material. Keep a fire extinguisher available. Have MSDSs and TDSs neatly organized and filed in
a safe location. In other words be as professional as possible. Give the government no reason to confiscate your work.
Here is the communication:
Mr. Deebs,
Just recently I became aware of the loss of your home lab which may be old
news but news which interests me. I find the loss of your notebook, your
intellectual property, appalling. I am a professional organic chemists in
fragrance ingredient synthesis with 20 years experience. I have been
planning to build a home lab to work on my own ideas and while I was
googling for ideas I started to find information that concerned me. That's
how I found the article about your troubles. I live in Easton Pa. with a
"progressive" government that may not like what I am going to do and I am
writing to ask for advice. I am aware you live or lived in Marlborough
Mass and I live in Pa. but we have U.S. Constitutional rights. Don't we?
Can you enlighten me about what I might be in store for? If you had to do
it all over, would you?
Many Regards
E.A.
Mr. A
Please read below the true story of what has happened to me
The only way to rejuvenate the economy is with innovation, and the only way to innovate is to encourage creative scientist to do their thing, and
not prostitute their talents to large corporations.
I am a 71 year old chemist with a B.S. degree in chemistry and advanced courses in polymer chemistry, with nearly 45 years of experience in
industry, upon my early retirement I initiated an effort to continue my work, by tinkering in my basement.
In my basement / lab. I have carried out work as described below to support my consulting efforts.
On Aug. 5 2008 about 11 AM Officer Pacific of the Marlborough, Ma. police Dep. while riding his motorcycle on Fremont St. Marlborough Ma.
noticed that smoke was coming out of a window air conditioner in my wife's bedroom, he phoned the fire Dep. and got me out of the house, in a pajama
bottom, T shirt and no shoes, The fire Dep. put out the fire within minutes of their arrival, and in their effort to eliminate the possibility that
the electrical fire started in the basement, the firemen entered my basement looking for the source of the fire and the electrical fuse box, when the
electrical board was obviously obvious from the open garage door, and found my lab. With (Labeled) samples, all over, on shelves, on tables and some
on the floor, some home canning jars, quart cans and vials, marked but not labeled, that I carried my experiments in, Material Safety Data Sheets
(MSDS), Technical Data Sheets (TDS) and spread sheets of my experiments, conditions, results, and observations, and any document that would allow me
to protect my intellectual properties.
The fire department not knowing what the samples represented, and fearing the worst, elevated my situation to Tier 3, when every
firemen i have consulted, in Marlborough, state of Ma. and else where (nationwide) , said it should not been any more than a Tier 1. because no
Firemen had any education in chemistry. toxicity, and hazard of materials, If Tier 3 was justified then why all those 55 gal. drums containing alleged
hazardous materials left in the RAIN with lids filled with water and hail.
Where are the pictures of hazard, toxic, flammable materials in my lab. ?
Someone Contacted the code enforcement office of The City of Marlborough, Ma. (Ms Pamela Wilderman) a code enforcement officer who is a
theater major,
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2007...
It is claimed that I may have violated zoning laws, which is contrary to;
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/40a-9.htm ,
and i just received a letter (certified mail) from Ms Wilderman cautioning me not to reinstitute my lab.,without a permit, but NO citation.
I met with Ms Wilderman and tried to explain to her what was in my Lab., but admittedly she did not understand because she had no technical
training, I met her and her associate (Deirdre O'Connor assistant sanitarian 508 460 3753) again In my hotel room and I explained that there was no
more toxic, hazardous, or flammable material, in my lab. than found in any home.
Materials found in ANY home, such as Bleach, solvents in surface cleaner, window glass cleaners, rubbing alcohol, finger nail polish and
finger nail polish remover, hydrogen peroxide, paints and drain cleaners, are more volatile, hazardous, and flammable than anything found in my lab.
The state police office of the state fire marshal of which Trooper Sean P. Sullivan interviewed me and asked me to sign a document giving the
state permission to renter my home at any time, which I refused to sign, Trooper Sullivan remained around for the following three days, constantly in
and out of my house, without a court order or my permission.
The emergency response of Ma. Dep. Of environment protection waste site clean up, of whom Mr. Nicholas J. Child (Section Chief) and William J.
Phillips (Branch chief), visited me in my hotel room, and I explained to them what I was working on in details, at which time Mr. Child asked me if I
was in a position to afford removing all items from my lab, and I said NO!, filled out a form handed to me and left. Apparently Mr. Child contracted
with New England Disposal Technology, Inc. of which Mr. Michael F. Sabo who is its field operation manager, without a court order.
Mr Sabo and his crew proceeded to place the samples from my lab., container labeled, unlabeled but marked into open head 55 gal drums which
were stored in my back yard in the open that accumulated significant rain water on the lids due to the rain storm that day.
Is it not illegal for the state to enter and dismantle my lab and remove my samples and 20 years of my life without a court order, in the
presence of a lawyer representing my interest?
On Aug. 8, I was informed by the City of Marlborough Fire Chief David Adams, that I was permitted to return to my home. Upon my return to my
home, I realized that my work for the last 20 years has been dismantled, destroyed and removed including Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS), Technical
Data Sheets (TDS) and spread sheets of my experiments, conditions, results, and observations, and any document that would allow me to protect my
intellectual properties, upon my contacting Mr. Child of the emergency response section chief, some of the MSDS and TDS were returned to me by Mr.
Child but NO! Spread sheets of my experiments, conditions, results, and observations, and any document that would allow me to protect my intellectual
properties, and said that they may be in the FBI's possession.
Chief Adams of the Marlborough,Ma.fire Dep. was kind enough to send Deputy Fire Chief James Diamond to help me locate spread sheets of my
experiments, conditions, results, and observations, and any document that would allow me to protect my intellectual properties, NONE were found in the
basement / lab. nor the garage.
Projects I have worked on in my Lab.
In my desire to help the environment led to my interest in the recycling of used Rubber tires, by reclaiming / recycling, instead of burning for fuel
which generates toxic hazardous fumes. Samples of ground rubber tire were among the samples removed from my lab.
Currently there are 3 ways to recycled rubber tire:
1) Brute force, by passing chopped rubber tire between 2 counter rotating cylinders driven by very high horsepower motors, which produces particle of
40 Mesh at best, the higher the mesh the smaller the particle size, the more acceptable it is for recycling into virgin tires or as asphalt modifier.
2) The Cryogenic process which uses liquid nitrogen to cool the rubber and upon impact particles as small as 300 mesh could be produced, the weight of
liquid nitrogen per weight of rubber required, makes the Cryogenic process economically prohibitive.
3) The wet process implemented by The Rouse Rubber Co. Of Mississippi, which utilizes a way to grind chips from used tires under water, to as low as
200 Mesh economically.
My interest in the wet process led to my association with The Rouse Rubber Co. as a consultant and eventually to the formation of a
partnership under the name of R. & D. Technology Inc. (Rouse & Deeb) and:
PAT. NO.Title
1 6,815,510 Elastomer reclaiming composition and method
2 6,743,836 Method for predispersing compounding ingredients
3 6,680,110 Particle size reduction using supercritical materials
4 6,663,954 Method of reducing material size
5 6,426,136 Method of reducing material size
6 6,333,373 Ground elastomer and method
7 6,238,448 Grinding stones
Prior to my association with the wet process, they used a 20% slurry in the grinding process, which was increased to 40% with an additive I
identified.
Prior to my association with the wet process, they could not grind Butyl inter tubes or tire molding bladders without an additive I identified
hence the presence of various additives in my lab.
In an effort to identify ways to enhance the acceptability / recycling of wet process ground rubber by the host compound such as tire
compounds or as a modifier for asphalt, paving or roofing, I investigated many potential binders / additives.
Of the binders / additives investigated certain type of polyurethane chemistry was identified as lending themselves to this application. Water
dispersions of such Polyurethane chemistry, were obtained and evaluated as binders for ground rubber tire with success. Fearing that the cost of the
specific Polyurethane chemistry dispersion may become an obstacle for adding such polyurethane dispersions to the wet process, I acquired various
latexes (Such as Neroprene SBR, acrylic, ect.) and investigated minimum Polyurethane dispersion required to maintain binding capacity of the ground
rubber tire, Hence the presence of various Latexes / polymer dispersion in my lab.
My interest in utilizing an alternative way to enhancing various processes of reclaiming scrap tires, I identified certain additives that
enhance the effectiveness, a process that utilizes much less energy. a water soluble solvent, and a peroxide (NOT HYDROGEN PEROXIDE FOUND IN MOST
HOMES) but peroxide with a 300 to 400 dF decomposition temp. Hence the presence of Dicumyl peroxide, Ter-Butyl perbenzoate and
2,5-Dimethyl-2,5-di(tert-butylperoxy) hexane, and water soluble solvents in my lab. Which are safe enough to be approved for food contact applications
by the FDA.
My interest in renewable resources led me to evaluate vegetable oils as a component of modifier for asphalt. Vegetable oil when combined with
petroleum derived di-functional monomer and a catalyst, subjected, in a batch or continuous way in a reactor I developed using my enhanced process,
will produce a syrup, which will finish its polymerization process using asphalt's melting heat / energy. Hence the presence of various vegetable oils
and a monomers ( which are FDA approved for food contract) in my lab.
The identification of BisPhenol A, BisPhenol F
http://greenopolis.com/myopolis/blogs/david+d/big-plastic-pa...
http://www.chej.org/BPA_Website.htm
and Pthalates in baby foods, from coatings, sealants and Dioxin
http://www.des.state.nh.us/NHPPP/healthcare_p2/Section3.pdf
(the worst known toxin to man) from the degradation of Poly vinyl chloride (PVC) Plastisol sealant,
http://hemporganic.com/PVC.htm
upon reclaiming the steel from food jar metal closures, has led me to recognize an opportunity to help humanity in general and children in particular,
and embarked on a project to develop a NO BisPhenol A, BisPhenol F liquid coating that can be applied using existing methods and converted using
existing equipment, temp / time. Utilizing a modified Vegetable oil, oligomers and peroxides complying with FDA 21 CFR 175.300 are under consideration
by European and domestic companies.
I have also a NO PVC, NO PHTHALATES closure sealant based on oligomers antioxidant and a catalyst complying with FDA 21 CFR 175.300 ready for
sampling. Hence the presence of modified vegetable oils, oligomers and powder antioxidant complying with FDA 21 CFR 175.300 in my lab.
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2001/aprqtr/pdf/21cfr175.3...
Having developed these products I was seeking to partner with someone to manufacture and market the products I developed, creating jobs would we have
a light bulb or PC's if they were treated as I was.
The only way to rejuvenate the economy is with innovation, and the only way to innovate is to encourage creative scientist to do their thing, and
not prostitute their talents to large corporations.
WAS THIS A HAZARDOUS MATERIALS INCIDENT?
Was there a spill?
Was there a liquid leak?
Was there a vapor leak?
WHO REQUESTED THE STATE POLICE BOMB SQUAD AND THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION?
One of the Lieutenants who responded to the fire is a member of the State Hazmat team, he requested the Tier 3 haz mat response. A Tier 3 response is
a full team activation with a mobile command post that contains all kinds of metering and sampling equipment, computer databases, guidebooks and such
as well as the equipment trucks.
[DEPUTY FIRE CHIEF RONALD P. AYOTTE]
Marlborough fire Dep. chief Adams said his department contacted the state fire marshal's office because of the quantity of chemicals discovered. The
fire marshal then contacted the state bomb squad, Adams said. [METROWEST 08-06-08]
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE RECORD, BOOKS, AND NOTES? ( my intellectual property)
There was a fire watch and police presence at the scene to guard the property.
the Fire Department maintained a 24/7 presence there to maintain control of the incident.
[DEPUTY FIRE CHIEF RONALD P. AYOTTE]
WHO REQUESTED THE HELICOPTER?
WHO REMOVED THE DEEB'S FROM THEIR HOME FOR THREE DAYS?
In regards to temporary living quarters was any assistance given by the Marlborough
Mayor's Charity Fund, Marlborough Human Services, Red Cross, Salvation Army?
Did the city pay for the hotel rooms?
While Marlborough fire Dep. (MFD) units were operating with other agencies at the hazmat incident at 81 Fremont Street, Marlborough Fire Alarm
received a 911 call reporting a structure fire at 184 Mechanic Street. Six families were displaced by the fire; the Red Cross was called to assist
them in finding temporary housing until they can return to their homes.
[DEPUTY FIRE CHIEF RONALD P. AYOTTE]
Best Regards;
Victor M. Deeb
President
R. & D. Technology, International, Inc.
81 Fremont St.
Marlborough, Ma. 01752 USA
Phone 508-460-9448
Fax 508-481-8878
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Arrhenius
Hazard to Others
Posts: 282
Registered: 17-8-2008
Location: US & A
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stochastic
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Wow.. not seeing anything missing in that story... this is really shameful on the part of the local government. Thanks for sharing your
corespondence.
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Panache
International Hazard
Posts: 1290
Registered: 18-10-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Instead of being my deliverance, she had a resemblance to a Kat named Frankenstein
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WOW! And to think i got really annoyed last night because of some silly assumption, i would be absolutely irate, one cannot even comment its so
momumentally devoid of sensibility, basically the state did nothing right here, not one thing, god, i'm changing my signature i'm so mad.
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chloric1
International Hazard
Posts: 1141
Registered: 8-10-2003
Location: GroupVII of the periodic table
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stoichiometrically Balanced
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We as a group should really push this. What I mean is this story is sensational enough to grab the attention of at least a group of undumbdowned
innovators. I don't know how we can spread the word. Maybe a public service announcement about all the common things we have now that where
developed in a garage or basement. Then go on to state that tyrannical legislation and unwarranted police searches is tying a noose around
innovation and utimately the United States economy.
Fellow molecular manipulator
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12AX7
Post Harlot
Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline
Mood: informative
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Talk to your local representatives. They're probably even available by e-mail. Mention this incident and express your concern. Write a letter to
your local newspaper.
Tim
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
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Uhhhh... What just happened? You got that pissed because I was concerned that you were incarcerated? This is what I get for being worried?
I really don't understand what just happened.
If you read any of my posts you will know that I would NEVER say or imply that someone "had it coming". ESPECIALLY when it has to do with the law.
Sheesh.
I must say that I find it extremely presumptuous to attribute someone elses words to the general meaning of mine. What if I didn't even read that
guy's post or completely disregarded it? Did you try to ask what I meant before making hasty decisions/accusations?
I'm sorry, but I'm very disappointed by your response to this situation.
And, as you probably have already realized, I never made an assumption. I merely wanted to know if anyone had heard from you. I assumed (but let's
not count that one) that if you weren't the victim you would reply. I never thought I would get a reply like this. If I said, "It's probably
Panache" then you could say I made an assumption, but I did no such thing.
You have a lot of equipment. Therefore I thought that of all Australians here who have been absent lately, you would be most likely to be persecuted
by the govt. That is the ONLY assumption I made.
Good day.
[Edited on 8-30-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Panache
International Hazard
Posts: 1290
Registered: 18-10-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Instead of being my deliverance, she had a resemblance to a Kat named Frankenstein
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
Uhhhh... What just happened? You got that pissed because I was concerned that you were incarcerated? This is what I get for being worried?
I really don't understand what just happened.
If you read any of my posts you will know that I would NEVER say or imply that someone "had it coming". ESPECIALLY when it has to do with the law.
Sheesh.
I must say that I find it extremely presumptuous to attribute someone elses words to the general meaning of mine. What if I didn't even read that
guy's post or completely disregarded it? Did you try to ask what I meant before making hasty decisions/accusations?
I'm sorry, but I'm very disappointed by your response to this situation.
And, as you probably have already realized, I never made an assumption. I merely wanted to know if anyone had heard from you. I assumed (but let's
not count that one) that if you weren't the victim you would reply. I never thought I would get a reply like this. If I said, "It's probably
Panache" then you could say I made an assumption, but I did no such thing.
You have a lot of equipment. Therefore I thought that of all Australians here who have been absent lately, you would be most likely to be persecuted
by the govt. That is the ONLY assumption I made.
Good day.
[Edited on 8-30-2008 by MagicJigPipe] |
Fuck man i'm so very sorry, i was so incensed as it seemed so ridiculous an assertion to make. I should have thought about the possibility that it was
all a misunderstanding and your post was simply poorly timed (without fault) after Ramiel's, before i assumed a slur was being made.
So i apologise sincerely and if you're happy i'd as soon as remove my rant from the thread if you're OK with that.
Baaaaa! (cos i'm sheepish suddenly)
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Ritter
Hazard to Others
Posts: 370
Registered: 20-6-2008
Location: Earth
Member Is Offline
Mood: Curious
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| Quote: | Originally posted by 12AX7
Talk to your local representatives. They're probably even available by e-mail. Mention this incident and express your concern. Write a letter to
your local newspaper.
Tim |
IOW, call attention to yourself. Save yourself the time & just plant a big red sign in your front yard reading AMATEUR LAB INSIDE.
The level of training of the local FD & PD in most municipalities equates 'amateur lab' with meth cooking. You'll get attention alright but not
the kind you were expecting.
[Edited on 3-9-2008 by Ritter]
Ritter
=============================
\"The production of too many useful things results in too many useless people.\"
Karl Marx
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
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I can attest the fact that PDs and FDs think this way. My father is a firefighter and my uncle is a state trooper. Both of them feel this way in
general. In fact, my father finds nothing wrong with people having any "household chemical" but gets angry at the very mention of me planning to make
small amounts of benzene.
The sad part is, you can't teach these people. They are stuck in their ways and NOTHING will change their minds. That's why we must focus on the
children (if they are not already lost).
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Ritter
Hazard to Others
Posts: 370
Registered: 20-6-2008
Location: Earth
Member Is Offline
Mood: Curious
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As a homeowner, I also am concerned about fires & the insurance companies as well as the local FD/PD.
I've seen it written that most illegal labs (as in 'meth') are literally 'smoked out' when the authorities have to respond to put out a fire or a
neighbor reports smoke or an odor that might be 'gas.' As with this poor guy in MA, the folks with the fire axes dressed in the bunker gear who enter
your house (and they have more authority to do so without a warrant than the PD - it's called an 'emergency') are not trained to discriminate between
dimethylxylophone & sea salt. They just tell the nice officer parked behind the fire truck that they found a lab in your house & you're in for
a world of inconvenience & expense even if you weren't doing anything illegal.
Serious fires happen even in college & university labs all the time & even in commercial companies as well. My concern (should I be doing
nothing more than recrystallizing Epsom salts) is the fine print in your insurance policy. In claims over $10,000 the insurance adjusters show up
& they get paid to find reasons not to have their client insurance companies pay out. Having a lab &/or quantities of flammables in a home
might not pass the fine print test in your policy.
[Edited on 3-9-2008 by Ritter]
Ritter
=============================
\"The production of too many useful things results in too many useless people.\"
Karl Marx
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
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Great point, I never really thought about that aspect. Because of this, I am already thinking about setting up a "fire suppression system" some day
whenever I have a better job and more money.
It's too bad "normal" people can't usually obtain Halon (CBrF3) systems anymore. However, according to the Wikipedia article on Halon 1301 there are
many alternatives that are not so "environmentally unfriendly".
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Alternatives to Halon 1301 in fire extinguishing systems are being deployed. Many installations from which halon is removed can be protected with fire
sprinklers, depending on the level of damage the equipment in the space will incur by exposure to water. In other cases, different total flooding
agents can be used. The alternatives for normally occupied areas include (PFC-410 or CEA-410), C3F8 (PFC-218 or CEA-308), HCFC Blend A (NAF S-III),
HFC-23 (FE 13), HFC-227ea (FM 200), IG-01 (argon), IG-55 (argonite), HFC-125, or HFC-134a. For normally unoccupied areas, the alternatives include
carbon dioxide, powdered Aerosol C, CF3I, HCFC-22, HCFC-124, HFC-125, HFC-134a, gelled halocarbon/dry chemical suspension (PGA), blend of inert gas
and powdered aerosol (FS 0140), and IG-541 (Inergen).[3] Perfluorocarbons, i.e., PFCs such as C3F8, have very long atmospheric lifetimes and very high
global warming potentials. Hydrochlorofluorocarbons, i.e., HCFCs including HCFC containing NAF S-III, contain chlorine and are stratospheric ozone
layer depleters, although less so than Halon 1301. Their selection for usage as Halon replacements should consider those factors, and is restricted in
some countries. |
I wonder how good 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane would be at fire suppression?
I forgot to mention standard water sprinklers (which really aren't that expensive). But, imagine the damage it could do to all of the equipment in
someone's lab.
Also, of course, haloalkanes would not be suitable for someone who has a lab connected to their house (with a family) because of the risk of
suffocation and intoxication. However, I think this solution would be perfect for a separate lab. (it still might be prohibitively expensive though,
but it would be worth it if a fire really did happen).
CO2 sounds like the best idea for a separate lab. I don't see why argon would be much better for inhabited areas as it would still pose a suffocation
hazard. What about N2? I suppose the only problem with it is that it wouldn't "sink" to the ground as readily as CO2 or argon. And, of course, none
of these gases would work well against substances that "produce" their own oxygen or don't require it to burn.
[Edited on 9-4-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Ritter
Hazard to Others
Posts: 370
Registered: 20-6-2008
Location: Earth
Member Is Offline
Mood: Curious
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My concern about a Halon system would be the risk to yourself if you were knocked unconscious for some reason during the accident/explosion. These
systems are intended to smother fires by excluding oxygen. If you were knocked out (say a fall backwards onto a hard floor) you could be very dead or
brain damaged within a few minutes.
A water-based sprinkler system is not going to have any effect on a sodium, potassium or magnesium fire
Ritter
=============================
\"The production of too many useful things results in too many useless people.\"
Karl Marx
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ScienceSquirrel
International Hazard
Posts: 1863
Registered: 18-6-2008
Location: Brittany
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dogs are pets but cats are little furry humans with four feet and self determination! 
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I have seen a small one of these systems in an overnight room at a university.
Experiments could be set to run in there unattended for days. If a fire started the whole room would fill with inert gas in seconds. I reckoned that a
few fast paces would see you through the door if the system triggered while you were in there.
The scariest one I have ever seen was in a large server farm. The room was the size of a tennis court and was fed by dozens of cylinders. I reckon
that if the system triggered while you were in there the chance of getting out was nil.
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Swede
Hazard to Others
Posts: 491
Registered: 4-9-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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In the U.S. most halon extinguishers are long gone from traditional channels, but they CAN still be purchased. They are sold to general aviation
enthusiasts... pilots. Halon is still recognized as a superior agent for aviation fire fighting. If you want a halon extinguisher, find a supply
shop for pilots and/or aviation maintenance. Remember, you're buying a new extinguisher for "Uncle Eddie" and his Beech Bonanza, because poor Uncle
Eddie had to use his on a small fire in his hangar, and he needs a new one.
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12AX7
Post Harlot
Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline
Mood: informative
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The place I worked at two summers ago used CO2. Big red cylinders outside of some testing rooms. Now that would be unpleasant to be in the middle
of...
Tim
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ordenblitz
Hazard to Others
Posts: 259
Registered: 18-7-2004
Location: Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bohr'd
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I recently purchased two Halon fire extinguishers for my lab from a commercial fire suppression company. I did not have to represent the sale as
anything else. According to them, halon is available for any special need use such as computer rooms, clean rooms, labs etc.
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Phosphor-ing
Hazard to Others
Posts: 246
Registered: 31-5-2006
Location: Deep South, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Inquisitive
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I also have a Halon 1211 fire extinguisher (CF2ClBr). I found this one at a friends work. Since they were going through accreditation and all fire
extinguishers had to be inspected they just replaced all. I grabbed this one for free.
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" -Ronald Reagan
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pKa
Harmless
Posts: 3
Registered: 17-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: meh.
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Politicians, bureaucrats, and police should generally fear the people more than the people fear them.
Ordinarily, we run the place. Ideally, we should know our neighbors well enough to work with them to solve immediate problems (sidewalk breakage etc.)
and not to get in their business unless they're doing something really stupid- like killing people. Even city government shouldn't have reason to
involve itself except in disputes (i.e. court). Sad that there aren't many places like that.
Best thing to do if your hood (neighbor- not fume) is small enough and friendly enough is to go around and do some 'splainin. You may get a few
objections (NIMBY) but this is one case where asking permission might be easier in the long run than asking for forgiveness.
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jimp
Harmless
Posts: 1
Registered: 28-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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It looks like he is filing a counterclaim:
http://blogs.masslawyersweekly.com/news/2008/10/25/controver...
ProChem,
Maybe you should tell Mr. Deeb to a set up a website. I would be happy to contribute to his legal defense/offense and I'm sure many others would too.
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benzylchloride1
Hazard to Others
Posts: 299
Registered: 16-3-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pushing the envelope of synthetic chemistry in one's basement
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Instead of burning books like in Fahrenheit 453, the firemen are raiding houses looking for home labs! People who have home labs think for themselves
and a nanny state cannot allow that! Be suspicious of those who's job is to keep you safe.
[Edited on 30-12-2008 by benzylchloride1]
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starman
Hazard to Others
Posts: 318
Registered: 5-7-2008
Location: Western Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by benzylchloride1
Instead of burning books like in Fahrenheit 453 |
I wonder if Bradbury would be happy that you increased the temperature by 2 deg F.
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
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| Quote: |
If you mix ammonia and bleach, you get chlorine gas. |
This seems to be a common misconception. Why? I don't know.
Maybe it's a very small "byproduct" simply because it's bleach but...
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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