rokaro
Harmless
Posts: 3
Registered: 23-1-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Convert CH3ONa to NaH
The reaction CH3OH + NaH = CH3ONa + H2 is used commercially to make sodium methylate CH3ONa. Can the reverse reaction be used to make NaH, e.g. using
electrolysis ? Facts and opinions equally welcome !!!
|
|
|
guaguanco
Hazard to Others
Posts: 216
Registered: 26-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: heterocyclic
|
|
My opinion: no.
Lots of reactions aren't reversible.
|
|
|
Madog
Hazard to Others
Posts: 221
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: lysergic
|
|
no way
Most people outgrow their pyro tendencies, we are the ones who\'s tendencies outgrew us.
|
|
|
BromicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 3254
Registered: 13-7-2003
Location: Wisconsin
Member Is Offline
Mood: Rock n' Roll
|
|
Well, maybe if you put it under considerable hydrogen pressure you could shift the equilibrium. But even if you did it would be in effective
expecially considering trying to recover the sodium hydride from the methanol and sodium methoxide solution. By the way, I thought that sodium
methoxide was made industrially by the reactoin of sodium metal with methanol. Is the hydride now used in its place to moderate the reaction?
|
|
|
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
My opinion: no. Lots of reactions aren't reversible.
Actually, according to the gibbs equation:
G = H - TS
Every reaction is reversible if the conditions are suitable.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
|
|
|
If_6_was_9
Unregistered
Posts: N/A
Registered: N/A
Member Is Offline
|
|
If you search for calcium hydride you should be able to find the military green colored cans that are used for filling weather balloons with hydrogen.
I think these cans are surplus.
|
|
|
guaguanco
Hazard to Others
Posts: 216
Registered: 26-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: heterocyclic
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by vulture
Actually, according to the gibbs equation:
G = H - TS
Every reaction is reversible if the conditions are suitable. |
That may be, in theory. If you find the conditions that convert, say, toluene + LiOH + Al(OH)3 to benzaldehyde and LiAlH4, let me know.
[Edited on 25-1-2004 by guaguanco]
|
|
|
rokaro
Harmless
Posts: 3
Registered: 23-1-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thank you all. The DELG for CH3ONa +H2 -> NaH + CH3OH is positive which means that rxn. is not spontaneous (the reverse rxn. is, of course).
However, VULTURE is correct - theoretically CH3ONa +H2 can occur with energy input and under right conditions. For skeptics only - please consider
that H2 +0.5O2 = H2O is irreversible and spontaneous (DELG<0), yet H2O electrolysis is done every day....
|
|
|
guaguanco
Hazard to Others
Posts: 216
Registered: 26-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: heterocyclic
|
|
It's not enough to look at deltaG numbers and decide that a reaction is 'reversible'.
The deltaG for the burning of azulene in O2 is probably not tremendously high:
C10H8 + 12 O2 => 10 CO2 + 4 H2O
but I wager you will never find reaction conditions that allow you to to convert CO2 and H2O directly to azulene and oxygen.
|
|
|
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It certainly is possible with the right conditions and catalysts. Like rokaro pointed out, H2O ---> H2 + 1/2 O2 has a K of about 10^(-50) at room
temperature. Electrolysis easily reverses it though.
You can steer reactions very specifically by manipulating conditions and catalysts.
Now let's get this back on topic.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
