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bfesser
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Phthalic Anhydride
I've always been fascinated by dyes and indicators, and have been wanting to try synthesizing a little fluorescein for a long time. I already have
some disodium fluorescein, but it seems like it would be a very interesting synthesis to try out--maybe by Woelen's method.
My question is this: <strong>Would it be illegal (Minnesota, USA) or even questionable to purchase 500 grams of phthalic
anhydride</strong> for this purpose? I've always been wary of purchasing <em>any</em> organic compound, because of concerns over
legality--I only have a few organics, and they're practically useless, like 500 g of lab grade 1-hexadecanol flake.
I've done hours of Google and forum searching, and have been unable to find anything on this. Am I just inept at searching? Where could I find more
information about what compounds are on precursor/controlled substances/whatever lists in my area?
(I'd rather buy less than 500 g, say about 10-30, but the only quantity available on eBay is 500 g.)
Again, I'd like to apologize if this has been answered elsewhere. If necessary, please delete this thread. Thanks.
[edit]
Rephrased my question.
[Edited on 3/15/08 by bfesser]
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MagicJigPipe
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Although your paranoia is well founded, I don't think phthalic anhydride is a big deal. I know it's not listed and I can't think of any common drug
syntheses that it is used in. It can be used in a round about way to produce thionyl chloride which is considered a chemical weapons precursor but
the synth is so convoluted that I doubt you will find any resistence.
There are several places on this forum where list 1 and 2 chemicals (US) are posted. Or you could just try searching google for list 1 and/or 2
precursors. I don't want to post them again here because, like I said, they're all over the place.
Another thing, you won't get very far in home chemistry without using any organics. I mean, ethanol and rubbing alcohol (isopropanol) are organic
substances and you certainly don't have to worry about those.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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bfesser
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I didn't take ethanol, isopropanol, or other ubiquitous organics into consideration when I made the statement 'few organics', but you are very right
that one can't get far without organics. Thank you for your help, it's greatly appreciated.
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smuv
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It could be used to make phthalimide which can be used to make methaqualone (quaaludes) via a few different routes. Although I wouldn't worry about
it.
Phthalic acid can be produced via oxidation of naphthalene (in either gas or liquid phase). Additionally xylene could be oxidized to mixed phthalic
acids, it may not be too hard to separate these acids as only one isomer would dehydrate to the anhydride upon sublimation.
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pantone159
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I would not be concerned about pthallic anhydride.
(Note: The SM spell-checker wanted me to change 'pthallic' to 'phallic'  )
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Sauron
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O-xylene can be purchased pure. Mixed xylenes are cheaper but you pay one way, or you pay another way, as with all things.
Phthalimide in not listed and not watched. Anthranilic acid, which can be made from phthalimide as well as other ways, is, or was. (The other required
component for methaqualone being o-toluidine.)
However since ludes ceased to be a problem, I am not at all sure anyone really cares anymore, they have other fish to fry.
And I hate to tell you, pantone, but there are two h's and only one l in phthalic
[Edited on 4-4-2008 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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pantone159
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
And I hate to tell you, pantone, but there are two h's and only one l in phthalic |
Oops. Hard to make fun of the spell checker now.
BTW - anthranilic acid would be very watched, it is DEA List I.
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smuv
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I agree with you Sauron, my post was in response to MJP saying that phthalic anhydride can't be used to make any common drug.
[Edited on 3-4-2008 by smuv]
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MagicJigPipe
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"I agree with you Sauron, my post was in response to MJP saying that phthalic anhydride can't be used to make any common drug."
Are quaaludes common now?
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Sauron
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But, pantone, the spellchecker apparently does not know how to spell phthalic, either.
It is trying for phallic - clearly has its mind in the gutter.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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MagicJigPipe
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"It is trying for phallic - clearly has its mind in the gutter."
Oh my god! Hahaha!
Also, is phthalic acid used in any consumer products (not esters)?
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Sauron
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Phthalic acid itself is not often encountered, phthalic anhydride is ubiquitous. A major intermediate in many industries.
AFAIK onl the esters are commonly enountered in consumer products, but consult Ullmann's and Kirk-Othmer for more information.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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smuv
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| Quote: | | Are quaaludes common now? |
I knew that would be your response. Your are right, outside of africa quaaludes are rare these days. However, since the original poster seems
paranoid about this, I think he ought to know. I'm not saying phthalic anhydride is suspicous but in order to properly inform the poster I think it
is worth mentioning.
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Sauron
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As Bill Rotsler used to say:
"Just because you are pArAnOiD, does not mean they aren't out to get you"
[Edited on 4-4-2008 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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12AX7
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1-nitrosyl-4-iodo-deuterobenzene
Para-NO-I-D 
Tim
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pyrochem
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The esters of anthranilic acid are also DEA list 1, but methyl anthranilate aqueous solution (~26%, IIRC) can be purchased in garden stores as bird
repellent. Expensive, but grapey!
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celindgren
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Hi,
I would appreciate it very much if someone could assist me in finding Phthalic acid (benzene-1,2-dicarboxylic acid) in small containers which cost
about $50-75. As I need it only for specific endeavours, I do not need very much. At present, the cheapest I can find is over $400.
Dr. Carl Edwin Lindgren, F.R.S.H. 
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JohnWW
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That is clearly grossly exorbitant, because the ester dimethyl phthalate (DIMP) is a widely made and cheap industrial chemical, used particularly as a
mosquito repellant. I wonder if you could buy some of that cheaply, and hydrolyze it.
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benzylchloride1
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Alfa Aesar lists 1 Kg of phthalic anhydride for around $12.00. I bought some off of Ebay, but it was mainly phthalic anhydride. I ran a synthesis of
o-benzoylbenzoic acid and got a yield of only 45%. The phthalic "anhydride" had a large melting point range and finally melted at about the
temperature that phthalic acid melts at. I decided to purify it by distilling off the water and then distilling the anhydride. The distillation went
well and I ended up with some nicely crystalline material with a very pungent odor. I was using a new short path distillation set up and when I tried
to remove the distillation set up from the plastic clamps that held the apparatus together, I heard a cracking sound and there was a large jagged hole
in the glass. The plastic clamp had melted to the glass and when I removed the apparatus, I broke my distillation set up. Next week I will have to fix
it at the university. When I tried to remove the anhydride from the receiving flask by chipping the material out, I ended up cracking the flask.
Beware of non anhydrous phthalic anhydride!
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S.C. Wack
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This is not on any DEA list in the USA. It can be made from mothballs (see Cumming here or at 4shared), but as written requires nearly an equal weight
of HgSO4, and quite a lot of H2SO4.
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Magpie
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I have purchased purported phthalic anhydride from two different sellers. In both cases the melting point (191C) indicated I had phthalic acid
instead (phthalic anhydride mp =131.5C). I'm feeling quite ripped off and plan on calling these suppliers to complain and seek replacement or a
refund.
I sublimed a small amount of the white flake sent from the first supplier into fine needles of phthalic anhydride which indeed had a mp of 131.5C. I
would just shut up and sublime what I need except it is like collecting cobwebs and may take a lot of effort to collect just a few grams.
Has anyone else other than BZ1 had this problem? Any recommendations?
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MagicJigPipe
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What was the melting range, Magpie?
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Magpie
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There was a range for both suppliers' products but I didn't necessarily record it.
The mp I recorded for the 1st supplier is 194C.
For the 2nd supplier, I ran 3 mp's:
*powder sample from top of bottle: >140C (quit raising temp)
*crushed flake from deep in the bottle: partial melting & slumping at 131-132C
*crushed flake from deep in bottle: no slumping, mp = 190C.
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Magpie
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I have received yet another bottle of phthalic anhydride. But its melting point is also 191C, indicating it is really phthalic acid. That's three
different lots now all testing false.
I'm beginning to wonder if it is something I'm doing wrong. If possible I would like to hear from other members who have phthalic anhydride. What
melting point do you get?
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Magpie
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Having given up on being able to get phthalic anhydride (PAN) from suppliers (they send me phthalic acid [PA] instead), I have developed a reasonably
facile procedure for converting PA to PAN:
In a hood or outside:
Place 25g of the PA in a 250 mL beaker supported by an iron ring attached to a ringstand. Place the beaker in an oil bath so that the PA is heated by
the oil. Set the bath temperature at 200C. As the PA is heated above its mp (191C) PAN and water will vaporize. Some of the PAN will be lost to the
atmosphere and some will accumulate as fine needles in a wool along the sides of the beaker. Gather the wool as it is generated and drop it back into
the melt. Continue this until the melt has turned from milky white to clear. Then pour the melt into an evaporating dish and place in a dessicator
to cool. When cooled scrape out the melt and grind to a powder with a mortar and pestle. Yield = 82%.
I have done this twice. Both times the mp of the resulting PAN was 131.5-132.0C, as it should be.
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