evil_lurker
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"Distillation" of ethanol via reverse osmosis... sweeeeeet.
http://www.ecopowerproducts.com/ethanol_machines.htm
The smallest system will treat 300 gallons of 10% wash per day for $695... output is 99% pure!
Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in
beer.
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Nerro
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I have been wondering about this for a while now. Would it be possible to make a filter like that by yourself? The quality doesn't need to be
fantastic, if it gives a result you can just repeat the experiment a couple of times to get results. Could a polymer be made to have the correct
structure or must it be a zeolite of sorts? And if it does need to be a zeolite could it be synthesized?
#261501 +(11351)- [X]
the \"bishop\" came to our church today
he was a fucken impostor
never once moved diagonally
courtesy of bash
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not_important
International Hazard
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It's not zeolites in RO, it's plastic films that have controlled permeability. Cellulose acetate is the old standard, today they tend to be amides,
imides, and esters.. The polar or non-polar nature of the film is also important. It's tough to get the control over thickness need, and to make the
structures that allow the thin membrane to withstand the high pressure differential across it.
The problem with the basic system, as described is two-fold. First is that the membrane would quickly become clogged with cellular debris, I assume
that they have one of more milllipore type filters in front of the actual RO membrane.
The second problems is that all the other stuff that is not water is going to stay behinf in the ethanol; the higher alcohols, unfermented sugar, and
so on. Not a problem if you're using it for fuel, bu you'd want to run it through a second membane that passes ethanol to clean it up, and/or distill
the ethanol.
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Sauron
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Can't use it here; ethanol (potable or not) is a royal monopoly auctioned off to the highest bidder every few years. One man has dominated the liquor
business (also the beer business a bit less totally) for a quarter century as a result and he is moving into fuel ethanol. No one else can touch it.
Not in this Kingdom.
Of course there is a significant moonshine industry.
If you ferment sugar (I used to use mostly glucose/dextrose) you end up with 12-16% ethanol along with a lot of dead yeast cells, unfermented sugar
and some congeners. If you don't exclude air you will quickly lose a lot of ethanol to acetic acid and if your hygiene isn't right on you will have a
microbe problem. If you use biocides to sterilize your tanks you have to be scrupulous about removing them or you will just kill your yeast. Mold and
fungus is a serious problem and you really need to use biocides in your work area to keep that from getting out of control. Heat is an enemy. If you
operate in a warm climat5e you will need cooling and temperature control. And I am talking about the simplest case of fermenting straight sugars,
things are much more complex when you are using mashes.
RO might be a neat way to bypass initial simple distillation but it sounds like you will still have to knock the concentrated ethanol back to 50% (100
proof) if you are going to put it through a vodka filter (GAC fixed bed) and then distill it again to get it back up to high concentrations. This
would be the way to get rid of most congeners whether you are going for reagent ethanol, or potable alcohol.
The potable alcohol resulting from this would be neutral spirits (vodka) - this is not a way to make any sort of whiskey, brandy or rum as those are
really defined by the congeners present. You could use the neutral spirits to make gin or absinthe or liqueurs.
[Edited on 16-7-2007 by Sauron]
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leu
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| Quote: | | I have been wondering about this for a while now. Would it be possible to make a filter like that by yourself? |
Actually the quality control must be quite exact to obtain a usable R/O filtration membrane  If one has a clean room one could contemplate producing such membranes, it's not possible without one 
Chemistry is our Covalent Bond
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Nerro
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Not even crappy low grade ones?
#261501 +(11351)- [X]
the \"bishop\" came to our church today
he was a fucken impostor
never once moved diagonally
courtesy of bash
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roamingnome
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ive been looking at buying filters from this company when the time comes...
they are most def reputable, whereas the other site seems a bit fishy
i mean i would be hesitant to drop $695 on them. The concept of high pressure filtration however is sweet
http://www.kochmembrane.com/sep_nf.html
after acid hydrolysis of biomass one needs to concentrate the sugars and recoup the acid....
it would seem a proper cascade of filters would be needed...
first to filter the dead yeast with a bag filter.... second the smaller noogies and so on.....
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MadHatter
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Permit
Why would you need a BATFE permit for this device if it does not involve distillation ?
The permit application itself talks about "stills". This device claims not to use
distillation. Sorry, I have to ask about the technicalities.
From opening of NCIS New Orleans - It goes a BOOM ! BOOM ! BOOM ! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
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Sauron
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What happens with typical sugar ferment to "bber" is that afterwards the bulk of the dead yeast cells settle out, the clear supernatant beer can then
be removed by careful siphoning. There are still a lot of yeast cells present, the liquid will throw them for several more days. However the most of
them are seperated in the first step, leaving less to be filtered and a smaller volume to be recovered from the yeast cells.
All in all this is a messy operation.
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roamingnome
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In regards to the BATFE permits...
i have recentaly obtained a 10,000 gallon a year permit from the ATF. it was rather painless really.... free
i think the wording of the law is out of date and would be updated if people started making proof gallons in this mannor. Ultimintaly the government
wants record on a product such as alcohol fuel. if it leaves your site it needs to be denatured yadda yadda .... and if you sell it for profit they
want to tax you....of course....
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not_important
International Hazard
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Nerro
Not even crappy low grade ones? |
No. The film thickness is critical, as is other aspects of its formation. And then there's the trick of making a very thin membrane that can withstand
high differential pressures.
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Sauron
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Not precisely OT but closely related.
I believe the N2 and O2 "generators" that are on the market are all or mostly RO seperators, they admit ambient air, dry it and filter it then pass
the desired component while blocking the other(s).
I was looking at an O2 unit a couple years ago as an alternative to bottled O2 for the oxidation of furfural to furoic acid.
Likewise the N2 version would be okay for a lot of less demanding lab applications.
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not_important
International Hazard
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Many of the N2/O2 separators are zeolites using pressure swing ab/de-sorption, and several staged chambers to get a more even flow. Those generally
are not really very selective, going for 93% +-3% O2 (medical/diving grade), or slightly lower for using in oxy-fuel torches. Nitrogen is a bit
better, typically 95 to 99 percent, serial units go 98 to 99,9 percent, and some add a deoxy stage to get to 99,995 but that's extra processing past
what PSA or membrane do on their own.
There are permeable membranes out there too, I believe they tend to be larger units for whatever reason. Their not properly RO, as there's no real
driving force towards mixing, just Brownian motion; mixing N2 and O2 doesn't release energy to speak of. The pressure they use is just to speed up
flow through the membrane walls.
Such units are handy, less power hungry and quieter than the liquidfication based systems, cheaper and less exciting than tanks of gas under several
hundred atmospheres of pressure.
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