Db33
Hazard to Others
Posts: 206
Registered: 25-11-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Suggestion for keeping a good source open
Okay so most of us here have ordered from Mario in the past and have a Great business relationship with him. However, as most of you know, especially
these days, this site is definitely monitored and the open nature of people posting about Mario is likely to end up with a loss of him as a source
eventually due to LE interfering. My suggestion would be to either have a secret thread about this source that only known customers and known-reliable
people can access. Or to have this type of thing be only sent person to person and not posted publicly.
I only offer this because i value this source highly as many of us do. And as great as it is to have an open air source. Id rather keep the source
open, i have seen to many times in the past where a good source was shut down simply because people wanted it to remain open-air. I really hope the
mods and admins take this into consideration. Mario deserves our protection, he helps us out alot and i think this will be the best thing for all
parties involved.
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
AFAIK, it hasn't been posted what country he's in, so he's more trouble than it's worth for the US to go after him. As long as he uses discretion and
doesn't send chemicals to anyone saying they'll use it to make some "fire molly", he'll probably be fine.
|
|
|
MrHomeScientist
International Hazard
Posts: 1806
Registered: 24-10-2010
Location: Flerovium
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Who?
|
|
|
Amos
International Hazard
Posts: 1406
Registered: 25-3-2014
Location: Yes
Member Is Offline
Mood: No
|
|
Mario840, they sell tons of chemicals, some of them accidentally erring on the sketchier side of chemistry, I think mostly to people in Europe. Those
of us in the states can usually get things cheaper and a lot more easily, though. I wouldn't argue that they've helped more than a few users out with
their access to so many reagents.
[Edited on 3-15-2017 by Amos]
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
I really wouldn't worry too much about it; they have bigger fish to fry, and people like Mario840 help to advance the frontiers of science. Law
enforcement is much more worried about people shipping 20 metric tonnes of acetic anhydride to Afghanistan than people selling small quantities of
hard-to-get chemicals, and while Mario840 does sell a few things that it would be illegal for me to buy, if I were to buy them, Mario840 wouldn't be
the one breaking the law. He fills a niche that is much needed in this world. Where else can an amateur buy TEMPO, trifluoroacetic anhydride, DCC, and
other exotic chemicals on the forefront of research, usually only available through major suppliers?
|
|
|
Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
|
|
Don't be so sure about the DEA's priorities. One particularly well known case of the DEA going after a small fish selling red P, and possibly other
drug precursors to US customers, is that of a UK family business known as Kno3.com. They were crucified by the DEA. Here's a record of the court
proceedings. There's a 7 page thread about this on this forum.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/03_04_08_HMA_v_Ho...
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
|
|
|
Db33
Hazard to Others
Posts: 206
Registered: 25-11-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
^ exactly my point, and WHY i worry so much. You underestimate the feds, i dont think would consider it small fish. Lets say he helps 99% of us who
dont do illegal things, if they found out he helped just 1 person, i think they would be more than happy to go after him.
Again its not up to me, i just, like many of u, value him very much and the service he provides. And i dont want to one day see him dissapear because
we didnt protect him enough. But its up to the powers that be on the board. Thats just my 2 cents.
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  | Don't be so sure about the DEA's priorities. One particularly well known case of the DEA going after a small fish selling red P, and possibly other
drug precursors to US customers, is that of a UK family business known as Kno3.com. They were crucified by the DEA. Here's a record of the court
proceedings. There's a 7 page thread about this on this forum.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/03_04_08_HMA_v_Ho... |
That's interesting. I'm not aware that Mario840 is conspiring with hundreds of American drug dealers to produce millions of dollars worth of
methamphetamine, but I'd think that anyone who receives a DEA warning letter should respect it (as opposed to thinking that it's just some idle threat
made by some blowhard Yanks who really ought to mind their own business).
[Edited on 16-3-2017 by JJay]
|
|
|
Db33
Hazard to Others
Posts: 206
Registered: 25-11-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
its not the only point JJay, they could say even if they caught him importing items without using them to make drugs, they would still go after him
for other reasons including not having the right permits. I guess i live by the better safe than sorry creed. What would it hurt to have a secret
forum only open to known-reliable members whom are trusted and whom mario trusts. He would still make all of his money, and we would still get all the
chems we need but without the risk of any problems.
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
I don't know that he doesn't have the right permits. I actually think it's a bad idea to have a secret forum for trading chemicals because that would
look like a conspiracy. In fact, if there were illegal activity going on, it probably would be a conspiracy. This forum has been operating for a long
time, so I don't think the forum management would want to get involved in something like that. If people are dumb and break the law, they will get
caught - it's the natural order of things. While I have actually not purchased anything from him at this point, I don't think Mario840 is dumb or
immoral.
[Edited on 16-3-2017 by JJay]
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | Don't be so sure about the DEA's priorities. One particularly well known case of the DEA going after a small fish selling red P, and possibly other
drug precursors to US customers, is that of a UK family business known as Kno3.com. They were crucified by the DEA. Here's a record of the court
proceedings. There's a 7 page thread about this on this forum.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/03_04_08_HMA_v_Ho... |
I just ran across this: https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/091807testma.pd...
They seized over a ton of red phosphorus from that couple after sending them several warnings that they were breaking the law and executing multiple
search warrants on them both in the U.S. and abroad. While in some respects they were "small fish," it's not as if they just happened to sell a
kilogram here and there--they were clearly trafficking large amounts of drug precursors with knowledge that they were being used as such and had been
asked to stop. You'd think that most people, after law enforcement executes three warrants on their homes and businesses, would cut back a little.
This was during a time when red phosphorus was actually frequently used by drug labs.
|
|
|
Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
|
|
That's a good find. I had no idea they were selling so much red P.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 8012
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
This puts the matter of kno3.com in a very different light. At that time I was quite angry about what happened to this company and its owners, but
now, after reading this document, I have other feelings about it.
I remember that their site had only a limited number of chemicals. Besides the red P and I2 they sold a few common oxidizers (NaClO4 was one of them,
KNO3 was another) and a few metal powders. Most likely these other chemicals were there to give it a pyro-oriented look, which was legal in the UK and
in the US at that time (and probably still is with some limitations). Having only red P and I2 of course looks very suspicious, hence the few other
chemicals. These other chemicals, however, were real and could be purchased. I myself, back in 2006 or so, ordered 100 grams of red P and NaClO4 and
both were delivered without issue. Most of that red P I still have and all experiments on my website with red P were done with their delivery. The
NaClO4 I used for making quite pure aqueous HClO4 in combination with conc. HCl and precipitating NaCl. If I had known at that time that this site was
run by a criminal organization and mainly delivered to meth-labs, then I certainly would not have ordered these two chemicals.
[Edited on 16-3-17 by woelen]
|
|
|
Db33
Hazard to Others
Posts: 206
Registered: 25-11-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
So even knowing thats a possibility, and knowing how history tends to repeat itself does anyone else not agree that there should be some protection?
Or is it just gonna be like it is where everything is public and when its over its over? Im just saying thats quite a shame. If i had the power id
protect such valuable sources.
|
|
|
Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
|
|
Early on in this forum there was an unwritten policy of not constantly talking about our valuable sources. Like so many things that require
self-discipline that has gone by the wayside.
[Edited on 16-3-2017 by Magpie]
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
|
|
|
Texium
Administrator
Posts: 4580
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
Member Is Offline
Mood: PhD candidate!
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by JJay | | I actually think it's a bad idea to have a secret forum for trading chemicals because that would look like a conspiracy. In fact, if there were
illegal activity going on, it probably would be a conspiracy. This forum has been operating for a long time, so I don't think the forum management
would want to get involved in something like that. If people are dumb and break the law, they will get caught - it's the natural order of things.
|
I agree with JJay here. A "secret forum" would be very shady looking, and it would be trivial for law
enforcement to infiltrate it if they wanted to anyway, so what's the point? I don't support the idea, and I think I can speak for the rest of the
forum staff when I say that.
Continue ordering from sources that you know are legitimate and above board, and you shouldn't have any problems. In my opinion, if a source is
selling chemicals with the intention of supporting criminal enterprise, they deserve to be shut down even if legitimate amateur chemists have been
able to make good use of some of their products.
|
|
|
Texium
|
Thread Moved
16-3-2017 at 12:48 |
j_sum1
Administrator
Posts: 6320
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: At home
Member Is Offline
Mood: Most of the ducks are in a row
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | Early on in this forum there was an unwritten policy of not constantly talking about our valuable sources. Like so many things that require
self-discipline that has gone by the wayside.
[Edited on 16-3-2017 by Magpie] |
I had no idea about this unwritten rule. Is it actually something that we want to reinstate? I thought there was some benefit in discussing and
supporting good suppliers. And also in promoting them to other members. And there are several members, Mario included, who have begun threads to
promote their products.
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
I think it really depends on the nature of the supplier and who you expect might use it. For example, declaring that you found a great deal on
4-fluorococaine from www.firemolly.com would be irresponsible. On the other hand, casually discussing how you bought some butyl alcohol from Fisher is probably ok,
although you actually might not want to draw frequent attention to that if you are concerned that people might abuse the source. There's a lot of
middle ground.
|
|
|
Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
|
|
In the early years many felt that revealing sources would result in losing them due to abuse by kewls, cooks, etc. Then in the last few years it
seems that promotion of these sources might be vital to their economic survival. Our promotion of Elemental Scientific has brought great benefits
with no apparent downside. So, as stated, it is a two-edged sword.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
They are in that niche where it seems as though they would be unlikely to attract cooks or kewls, and I am sure they don't mind picking up business
off of this site.
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 8012
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
I would say, leave it up to the sellers themselves. Mario840 decided to place a few lists of chemicals in a public forum. He has helped quite a few
people with that, and for himself, he probably made a little earning with it. It was his decision to publish those lists.
Having a secret/closed subforum for trading chemicals is a bad idea in my opinion. I agree fully with zts16. It looks shady and would certainly
attract attention. In a short time, once it is known in the cookery scene and forums, it will also lead to a flood of a type of members we do not
want.
Best is to do things in the open and use common sense. Specific drug-precursors, which only can be used for making drugs and have no other uses in
home chemistry, are not sold over here. If such things are offered, they quickly are put in detritus or removed. Sale of chemicals, which can be used
as helper compound in cookery, but which also have numerous other legal uses, is fine. It is up to the seller whether he/she decides to sell this to
the one who asks for it.
|
|
|
clearly_not_atara
International Hazard
Posts: 2787
Registered: 3-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Big
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | Don't be so sure about the DEA's priorities. One particularly well known case of the DEA going after a small fish selling red P, and possibly other
drug precursors to US customers, is that of a UK family business known as Kno3.com. They were crucified by the DEA. Here's a record of the court
proceedings. There's a 7 page thread about this on this forum.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/03_04_08_HMA_v_Ho... |
Not exactly the brightest bulbs in the box, were they?
| Quote: | | Examples were given of United States law enforcement officers following up KNO3 orders to their destination in the United Sates and finding
methamphetamine laboratories with the chemicals sent by KNO3 in packages with false descriptions of their contents. A saved website which gives a
recipe for manufacturing methamphetamine from red phosphorus and iodine was found on a KNO3 computer. |
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
