Madog
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Al for the masses
This is nothing new, but i bet some of you would like to hear about it.
i was bored today after i got a haircut and there is a paint store down the street from where i was so i just walked down there and asked if he had
aluminum paint, he said yeah, and showed me it, i bought 8oz and brough it home
it says it has some solvent thing(forget what) Alluminum flake, and linseed oil.
this would be really good for makeing ammonal cheap(like simply red he just take some and mixes it with AN and lets dry) or doing reductions for
phosphorus mfg.
i havent rried cleaning it out but it should be very easy with a little gass or some paint thinner and stuff.
i just thought some of you would like it if i brought it to your attention, if you would like i can take a pic of it.
Most people outgrow their pyro tendencies, we are the ones who\'s tendencies outgrew us.
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Haggis
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Good show on the aluminum powder. However, that's not what caught my eye. I bet that the odds are stacked so much against this, but I get my
haircut a little bit away from a paint store. Does the name of the haircut shop fit this pattern? B****r S******s. Because if it did, boy this
could get interesting.
[Edited on 27-4-2003 by Haggis]
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DDTea
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Perhaps an even better source is from Ground Wire at electronics stores. I just bought about 200g of Aluminum Ground Wire for $5. No, it's not a
mind-boggling amount...but hey- it's a reliable source that is free from any work to extract it  .
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Blind Angel
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Around here Al ingot are mostly Free (our region economy is base on aluminium production so more than 30% of the population work there and have
ingots), so i was wondering if i could simply scrape some in powder and use it?
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Madog
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i was looking to get a cheap source of Al powder
anyways. of course you can just grind it, but i mean, its not gona be too fine, hm, i wonder if theres any reacton where you can take something like
alluminum chloride and react it with something in solution and precipitate Al particals, that would be very cool.
Most people outgrow their pyro tendencies, we are the ones who\'s tendencies outgrew us.
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Organikum
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somehow
somehow I have the feeling that grinding aluminium might be a big pain in the ass.
somehow I have the feeling that precipating aluminium from aluminiumchloride might lead to sedimentation and the need to grind the precipated
Al.......
(after having wasted some magnesium or earthalkalimetal)
somehow I think that the paint is is superior to all other named ways to AL-powder.
[Edited on 29-5-2003 by Organikum]
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Abbrasing Al under inert atmosphere (I would do it under paraffine oil and wash the powder slowly with aceton/ether then allow the fine Al dust to
enter in contact with cold fresh air to make as little possible oxyd layer.
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Organikum
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abrasing pure Al how ?
The inert conditions aren´t a problem and understood - but howto abrase pure Al in paraffine oil? It is a quite soft metal when pure and smears like
hell.
But I know a solution - for all friends of practical  suggestions:
Let molten Al drop through an ringformed ultrasonic transducer in some - paraffine oil for example. In an inert atmosphere is understood. The stronger
the ultrasound and the higher the frequenz as finer get the Al particles. And very unique.
Works bestens!
Chemical engineering offers many paths to solve a problem, you know? 
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Abrasive sandstone weel or corrundum abbrasion disk, commercial tungsten carbide on a driller with variable speed...are a very economical way to grind
Al.
I have tried Al dust formation from food Al foil ultrasonication under water with a little vinegar.I have had moderate succes because water and
vinegar attack Al quite fast.
Al molten is roughly 670°C so to drop it in paraffine oil will result in ...explosion or cracking of the parafine.
The best and easy design is no doubt the abbrasion weel on Al or Al foil in paraffine oil.... sonication might help random dispersion wave to allow
good homogen particle size and no smearing to the abbrasor.
A simple electronagnet design will also help agitation of the fluid in similar way.
Another idea would be to use condensator accumulation and explosion of Al wires in vaccuumated vessel...the walls of the reactor could be covered with
polystyrene in a way to collect all the Al ultrafine dust that would stick strongly to glass (imbeded in it by the violence of the explosion).
Here the concept uses the high intensity of current that passes trough a wire; the wire heats up by Joule effect and its resistance to current
increases; then if the Voltage is high and constant, the current will increase further and finally this cyle will accelerate until the wire explode
and volatilise.
One making this would need a lot of wires in parallal in the vaccuum so he could make several explosions from the outside simply by switching its
connections; then spray paraffine oil in a fluid inert solvant inside the vaccuum chamber, insert cold N2 or CO2 and then slowly cold O2...the hoter
the O2, the thicker the Al2O3 oxyd layer!
Then collect the black oily liquid and wash it over a filter with cold n-pentane, hexane, ether, aceton to get rid of the paraffine and get the pure
reactive Al black powder.
Avoid Ethanol, organohalogen and water.
PH Z
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Nick F
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Mg powder for the masses..?
I've been wondering recently, how long do you think fine Mg powder would last in fairly strong aqueous NaOH solution?
My plan is to obtain some magnallium (pencil sharpeners, for example), grind it up into coarse grains with a drill, and then dissolve out the
aluminium with NaOH solution. Initial tests with a whole pencil sharpener were promising; it bubbled rapidly as the hydrogen was formed from the
reacting Al, and the metal was coated in a black powder. Under cerful inspection, the black powder was found to consist of very very small shiny
grains of dark metal, presumably corroded Mg.
The trouble was that there was not enough surface area for a fast reaction.
But if the magnallium was pre-ground, then maybe the reaction would proceed at a useful rate...
I'll do some more experiments.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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I suppose that by magnallium you mean an alliage of Magnesium and Aluminium?
Anyway:
Knowing the properties of Al and Mg:
Al is decomposed by hot slighly acidic and hot slighly basic water.When the concentration of acid or base increases the heat becomes useless and
corrosion is fast without.
Al is reactive when naked to moisture; it can be made naked by strong OH(-) base and by strong H(+) acids...sole exception to this is HNO3 that makes
a protective Al2O3 layer.
Al + 3H2O --> Al(OH)3 + 3/2H2 + heat
Al2O3 + 3 H2O <--> 2 Al(OH)3
Al(OH)3 + 3H(+) --> Al(3+) + 3 H2O
Al(OH)3 = H3AlO3
Al(OH)3 + 3OH(-) --> 3H2O + 3 AlO3(3-)
The amphoteric caractere of Al oxydes explain you get Aluminium cations in acidic media and aluminate anions in basic media.
Once the oxyd layer has been removed the corrosion goes faster and faster.
Al + 3H(+) --> Al(3+) + 3/2 H2(g) + heat
Al + 3OH(-) --> AlO3(-) + 3/2H2(g) + heat
The acceleration comes from the heat of reaction and from the fact the specific surface to react increases by dispersion of the metal in tiny pieces;
the presence and evolution of tiny H2 bubbles dillated by the heat allows good mixing of the salts, acid or basic media and takes away any Al(OH)3,
Al2O3 protective layer,and breaks appart the metal pieces.It is wel seen when Al foil balls are dropped in 35% HCl...the reaction runnaway very fast
and black powder start to mix all the reactor that starts to boil and evolve white fumes of HCl.
Al(OH)3 +3HCl <--> AlCl3 + H2O
Al + 3HCl --> AlCl3 + 3/2H2(g) + a lot of heat
Now speaking about Mg...I have the regret to tell you that Mg decompose water even faster than Al...Mg ribbon decompose neutral water at 100°C.But Al
needs little acid or base to do this.
Mg + H2O --> MgO + H2(g) + heat
MgO + H2O --> Mg(OH)2 + little heat
In acidic media you very fast see Mg is more reactive than Al.
In basic media Mg displays also amphoteric properties:Mg(OH)2 = H2MgO2
Mg(OH)2 + 2NaOH --> Na2MgO2 + 2H2O
Mg + 2NaOH --> Na2MgO2 + H2(g) + heat
As expected here also Mg is more reactive than Al being more metalic (electronegativity is 1,2 vs 1,5 for Al) 
The black residue you have might be some iron, Pb..
Anyway it is good to know Mg might be found in metalic pencil sharpeners.
I know it can be found on some bikes since managlium is light and resistant vs iron steel what is interesting to bike, plane and car builders.
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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jimwig
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ballmills - the kind with balls.
pyrophobic flake and powder made by the quadzillions.
i will try to find my patent refs but they are industrial size stuff.
there's a ton of weird ways to get the powder all in the patents place.
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Organikum
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outch !
my bad with the paraffine.
But the ultrasonic method by a ringsonotrode is a real exquisite way for preparing fine divided metal particels. Some equipment needed so.....
Thanks Philou for the explanations and the readable formulas. Helps me a lot and reading gets enjoyable and enlighting this way.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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The sonotrode technique is used to make metic powder.
An electrolyse of a metal salt is done in a sonication bad... the metal that deposits on the eletrolytic probe is pelled off immediately by ultrasonic
wave...the metal particles move away and allow further metal reduction.
Me(x+) + xe(-) --> Me(s)
A good example of this can be done from CuCl2 electrolysis under sonic waves --> Cl2(g) + Cu(s) colloidal.
Unfortunately with reactive metals like Mg, Zn, Al, water precludes that kind of method; except if one find an organic solvent that allows the current
to pass and that is unreactive towards Al, Zn, Mg ultrafine dust...my idea would be the use of crown ether in cyclohexane (crown ether of ring size 9
to 12 should be great).
Crownether have the hability to solubilise metalic cations in organic nonpolar solvants.
The question is will a complex ion-crown be reducible?Will the crown resist ultrasounds cavitation? I will post just hereafter a thisweek talk on a
chem NG.
Anyway the cavitation (ultrasounds) is a very good way to make fine particle size; as a mather of fact... ultrasonicated Mg ribbons do perform
Grignard without the help of any single drop of ether...the temperature and pressure waves in cavitation bubbles are so extreme that most organic
molecules are destroyed (benzene included) some H2O2 is formed, metal increases their specific surface by puncturation and lose their protective layer
instantaneously!
But for cavitation to occure, one need a volatile solvant rich at gas...in the case of reactive metals O2 and N2 are excluded...so I would recommand a
CO2 rich media...why not carbo ice CO2 in some cyclohexane with Al gross powder?The carbo ice not only prevent O2 and N2 solubilisation; but also is
unreactive towards Al (maybe not in cavitation bubbles, but who knows).
Worst a try... A friend of mine has given me a sonicator to make decorative water mist... strange what it does to Al foil after a while or to viscous
fluids.
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Dibenzo-18-crown-6
o-C6H4(OH)2 + (Cl-CH2-CH2)2O may cyclise into a benzo-9-crown-3 (insciption radius at least inferior to 60 pm):
C6H4(O-CH2-CH2-)2O instead of C6H4(O-CH2-CH2-O-CH2-CH2-O)2C6H4; the two possibilities may occur owing
to 1/1 stoechiometry.
Ionic radii!
Sn(4+) is 71 pm --> catalyses 12 membered rings
K(+) is 133 pm --> very strong affinity for the 18 membered ring of the considered crown-ether
Since you said destructive distillation... I suspect K(+) is not an option because affinity is too strong and resulting product
wanted destroyed.
Pb(2+) is 120 pm --> might be of a certain help because it will precludes 9 membered ring formation in favour of the 18.
The fact 120 is inferior to 133 will lower substrate affinity for its crown complexator and facilitate isolation/separation.
Ag(+) is 126 pm --> idem as Pb(2+) but higher affinity
Ba(2+) is 135 pm --> may have the same problem as K(+) but affinity might be lower
Ca(2+) is 99 pm --> worth a try
Hg(+) is 127 pm --> idem as Pb and Ag, but even higher affinity
Na(+) is 95 pm --> worth a try
I wonder if such crown/cation complexes may be involved in oxydoreductions or electrolyses...if it is the case
Ag(+), Pb(2+), Hg(+) could be displaced easily to get metalic Ag (144 pm), metalic Pb(175 pm) and Hg (160 pm)...that
would pop out of the crown as being neutral and larger than the inner radius!
The use of Al powder, Zn or Mg powder will be a good alternative to electric current:
Al (143 pm) --> Al(3+) (50 pm)
Zn (133 pm) --> Zn(2+) (74 pm)
Mg (160 pm) --> Mg(2+) (65 pm)
Since they display good reduction potential vs Ag, Hg and Pb what will push the reaction; and their ionic radius is much
lower than those metal too; so the affinity for the crown-ether will be lower (easier separation).
Uncle Al wrote:
LOUIS wrote:
>
> Maybe the addition of a metalic cation catalyst or of an inert H bonding
> molecule (H2O, H2S?) that inscribe itself in the 18 ring may improve the yield!
> A similar process is used in the synthesis of the tertameric cycloaceton
> peroxyde (very dangerous sensitive explosive)!
> Naturally the liquid dimer and the cristalline trimer form when media is cooled
> near zero degre celcius.
> Addition of SnCl2 or SnCl4 in catalytic amount increase almost from 0 to 100%
> the formation of the tetrameric form and dimer or trimer form are minor
> products; tetramer is cristallisable at ambiant temperature!
> CADP is (CH3)2C(-O-O-)2C(CH3)2 (contains an hexaring) (-C(CH3)2-O-O-)2
> CTAP is (-C(CH3)2-O-O-)3 (contains a nonaring)
> CTeAP is (-C(CH3)2-O-O-)4 (contains a dodecaring)
> Maybe a similar process could be adjusted to the process described below!
> The use of SnCl2, SnCl4 (and better PbCl2, PbCl4 because of larger cationic
> radius --> for larger crowns) should be investigated or Na Stanate, RuCl3 (good
> complexator)!
> Finally NH4(+) from NH4OH may have desirable size!
>> From Encyclopedia of Reagents for Organic Synthesis...
>
>> dibenzo-18-crown-6 was first prepared in 39-48% yield from the reaction of
>> catechol and bis(2-chloroethyl) ether using sodium hydroxide as the base and
>> n-butanol as the solvent.1 The ditosylate of diethylene glycol has been
>> substituted for the dichloride with accompanying yields of 32-35%.2
>
>> Ref 1: Pedersen, C. J. Organic Synthesis 1972, 52, 66.
>> Ref 2: Ashby, J.; Hull, R.; Cooper, M. J.; Ramage, E. E. Synthetic
>> Communications 1974, 4, 113.
Dibenzo-18-crown-6 is templated by potassium cation. "8^> You can
get the free crown ether by destructively distilling the crowned
potassium salt under hard vacuum.
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Nick F
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I did not know that Mg(OH)2 was amphoteric; that is obviously a problem with my idea! I had thought that a layer of Mg(OH)2 might form and protect the
Mg grains, since Mg(OH)2 isn't very soluble in water and is even less soluble in alkaline solutions.
I thought that Al(OH)3's amphoteric properties were due to the fact that Al (3+) is small and with a high charge, thus electrons in the Al-O bond
would be drawn strongly towards the Al, thus electrons in the O-H bond would be drawn more towards the O, making deprotonation more likely. I did not
think this would occur with Mg(OH)2, due to Mg (2+)'s larger size and lower charge.
Edit: So why doesn't Mg dissolve in NaOH solution?
[Edited on 4-6-2003 by Nick F]
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Maybe It needs higher % NaOH or a little more heat than Al? Then there might be a separation way; but I doubt it!
Mg and Al upon boiling with alcools form alcoolates!
Al(OH)3 Ks = 3,7*10E-15 (mol/l)E4 = s*9s*s*s
Mg(OH)2 Ks = 1,2*10E-11 (mol/l)E3 = s*4s*s
Solubility s of Al(OH)3 is 1,424*10E-4 mol/l
Solubility s of Mg(OH)2 is 1,442*10E-4 mol/l
The difference is almost negligible and the effect of NaOH upon solubility will be identical.
In neutral water solubility is equal!
Al(3+) ionic radius is 50 pm
Mg(2+) ionic radius is 65 pm
But:
Fe(3+) ionic radius is 64 pm
Sn (4+) ionic radius is 71 pm
Zn (2+) ionic radius is 74 pm
Ionic radius are similar and larger for other amphoteric metal hydroxydes of various charges!
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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