Gooferking Science
Hazard to Self
Posts: 97
Registered: 17-7-2013
Location: Somewhere in Kansas, USA...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Halogenated
|
|
What to do with TCCA (Trichloroisocyanuricacid)
Hello! I got some TCCA to make some pure chlorine gas. It was only available in large quantities, so now I have five pounds (2.2 Kilograms) of it and
I have absolutely no idea what to do with it. Any suggestions?
|
|
|
Finnnicus
Hazard to Others
Posts: 342
Registered: 22-3-2013
Member Is Offline
|
|
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=5686#p...
|
|
|
Mailinmypocket
International Hazard
Posts: 1351
Registered: 12-5-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Well, since you said you wanted to make chlorine...
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=9713
|
|
|
papaya
National Hazard
Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: reactive
|
|
Lately I tried synthesis of chloroform from TCCA directly, but got very low yields (20-30% I estimate), it would be good if one tries to develop a
better method for this.
|
|
|
Dr.Arz
Harmless
Posts: 26
Registered: 14-10-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Does anyone know if stainless steel 300 series can be used as reaction vessel in TCCA chlorination reactions involving organic reactants, solvents and
water? I have had impression that steel materials can leach trace amounts of metal compounds into solutions especially when halogens are involved and
they can cause catastrophic catalytic reactions. The reactions hereinmentioned are to be processed at room temperature or cooler.
|
|
|
blargish
Hazard to Others
Posts: 166
Registered: 25-9-2013
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mode Push
|
|
Here's another good thread on TCCA
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24088
BLaRgISH
|
|
|
CuReUS
National Hazard
Posts: 928
Registered: 9-9-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by papaya  | | Lately I tried synthesis of chloroform from TCCA directly, but got very low yields (20-30% I estimate), it would be good if one tries to develop a
better method for this. |
be grateful that no chloracetone formed
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=MQMGhInCvlgC&pg=PA119...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroacetone
i eyes burn thinking about them even now
|
|
|
Famousroger
Harmless
Posts: 23
Registered: 12-10-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Having worked in stainless surface chemistry in the recent past, I will say this; what is your concern as pertains to the steel? TCCA will be
corrosive to 300 series stainless, but if you're evolving chlorine gas, none of the metals would be in a gas state; its stainless, so the passive
surface will not degrade quickly...exposure time, temperature, solution/solvent, atmosphere, etc would be significant. Metal surface chem is often
largely dictated by formation of passive external layers of oxidized metals that retain shape and structural integrity, while protecting internal
alloyed metals. An example of a compromising environment for chromic passive layers, for example, would be the prevention of the formation of passive
chromic acid layer; this is the significant feature related to the 'Russian mud' test in surface chem; automotive. This mud clings to a surface (esp.
of a vehicle) and, due to the change in environment and subsequent restriction on formation of an effective passive layer, the surface becomes more
susceptible to corrosion...in other words, tcca shouldn't be stored in stainless IMO. That being said, using the tcca in stainless steel at rt won't
react more quickly than most any reactant in solution, but all this needs to be looked at in total.
As for chloroform synthesis, I am tempted to quote one of many of these science madness veterans and say, more or less , 'ooh, real chemists order
that'...then who the fuck produces it; ugh. Now, that being said, there are some dangers related to production of chloroform, it is relatively easy.
Sodium hypohlorite can be used as the source of chloride, acetone can be cleaved and chlorinated; producing 2 CHCl3, CO2, H2, H20...these are possible
products; the target will be the CHCl3. You'll need 6 molar equivalents of NaOCl for every one of acetone. I suggest that, in polyethylene, you pour
6.1x(in moles), then some ice, then 1x acetone, slowly. I used a ten gallon pail with lid (like Tupperware, bin shape). Poured in 5 gallons bleach,
added additional sodium hypochlorite from pool treatment (54% NaOCl)(the pool hypohlorite isn't nessecary, but it increases the volume of product
without dramatically increasing volume of reactants - although it is more $ per mole naOCl). Once the acetone is slowly added to the bleach, one
would gently shake until the bottom is warm to the touch. Once warmth is felt, add ice gently; IME, a depth of 10"+ of <45*F water will condense
and contain chloroform forming. Bin should be shaked every so often, but you do not want temp at bottom to get HOT, the rxn can run away, boiling the
chloroform and creating a potentially unfun or unsafe situation. once acetone is added, a lid was placed on bin. Lid had small (1/4") hole covered
by a SMALL square of electrical tape (this seal should easily fail if pressure evolves). In my rxn I yielded 300mL after distillation. BP 64-65.
Second distillation results in little loss of product, slightly higher BP (~66C). One problem was all 'inert ingredients' in dry pool NaOCl were
chcl3 soluble, and chalky. Decanting off most of the water (lower density than CHCl3, h2o is top layer) was easy, as a thick white layer was beneathe
the clear water. Once the rxn has gone to completion (10 hours of mild agitation to maintain elevated temp of lower portion of container; as this
continues, aggitation will need to be progressively more violent) once agitation does not result in increased temp- decant in tall form clear glass
with airtight closure. Pour off water down to a 1" layer after it has settled for a couple hours. Do this twice. Then distill.
|
|
|
Chemosynthesis
International Hazard
Posts: 1071
Registered: 26-9-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Roger, I am back to loving your posts.
Perhaps you could make chloroacetic acid for future reaction with cellulose. Carboxymethylcellulose is useful in ion exchange chromatography which may
be fairly novel in then amateur setting.
|
|
|
j_sum1
Administrator
Posts: 6326
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: At home
Member Is Offline
Mood: Most of the ducks are in a row
|
|
Reading with interest. I am going to be in much the same position soon. I intend to buy some TCCA to manufacture chlorine. The Cl2 is for a couple
of fairly small projects. I am going to have a considerable quantity of TCCA left over.
So the question is largely a practical one -- what are some interesting, useful and worthwhile projects that could make use of the TCCA. Is it
possible for example to make my own HCl (with less effort and expense than trotting down to the hardware store for muriatic acid). It is a strong
oxidiser. Can I make use of that in any useful way? Is there some phenomenal-looking giant crystal growing experiment that I could do using the TCCA
as a reagent?
|
|
|
Famousroger
Harmless
Posts: 23
Registered: 12-10-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If you want simplicity, I suggest using it to bleach tee shirt stencils commenting on the Ebola crisis; mine says 'Ebola apocolypse 2014' (will post
link and pic tomorrow).
TCCA can definitely be used to generate cyanuric acid and chlorine. Chlorine is released from tcca as its 'hydrolyzed' by water, producing the cl2
and cyanuric acid.
Yeah, I've no suggestion as to practical production or capture of chlorine from tcca, although I'm certain one could use this as a source of chlorine,
I've no experience with it for this capacity, although a cursory net search will likely give you a lab-scale approach.
|
|
|
Hawkguy
Hazard to Others
Posts: 326
Registered: 10-10-2014
Location: British Columbia (Canada eh!)
Member Is Offline
Mood: Body is Ready
|
|
You can make tear gas, as well as Nitrogen Trichloride
|
|
|
j_sum1
Administrator
Posts: 6326
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: At home
Member Is Offline
Mood: Most of the ducks are in a row
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Famousroger | | Yeah, I've no suggestion as to practical production or capture of chlorine from tcca, although I'm certain one could use this as a source of chlorine,
I've no experience with it for this capacity, although a cursory net search will likely give you a lab-scale approach. |
TCCA + HCl liberates Cl2 according to http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=22473#...
It looks straightforward and I have no real issues with it. Although I should probably investigate what the other reaction products are.
And having a simple supply of Cl2 whenever I need it will actually be quite useful. But what to do with the rest of the 5kg bucket...
|
|
|
Dr.Arz
Harmless
Posts: 26
Registered: 14-10-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Which one is worse chloroacetone or benzyl chloride?
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
