Hulk
Harmless
Posts: 16
Registered: 11-8-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Building My Lab
Hi,
I am putting together a lab in the basement. It is approx. 8 ft. * 6 ft. Right now I built 2 tables 5 ft. * 2 ft. 1 is 30 in. high and the other 38
in. high. I have added a couple of wooden shelves to the high table. I have some metal shelves on one of the walls to hold glassware, books , papers,
etc.
I want to store my chemicals on the wooden shelves.
The room has no real ventilation, no window, etc. Is this a safe place to setup and work?
Hulk
|
|
|
Hermes_Trismegistus
National Hazard
Posts: 602
Registered: 27-11-2003
Location: Greece, Ancient
Member Is Offline
Mood: conformation:ga
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Hulk
The room has no real ventilation, no window, etc. Is this a safe place to setup and work? |
Hulk; it sounds as if you already know the answer to this question.
Lack of ventilation is a serious concern. Not an obstacle to be avoided or ignored, but an issue that needs to be addressed.
Hermes Tris.
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics; even if you win: you\'re still retarded.
|
|
|
MadHatter
International Hazard
Posts: 1339
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Maine
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enjoying retirement
|
|
Ventilation
Hulk, you definitely need some ventilation even if it is only a small window
fan ! For any work involving gasses, dangerous or not, this is a necessity !
From opening of NCIS New Orleans - It goes a BOOM ! BOOM ! BOOM ! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
|
|
|
Esplosivo
Hazard to Others
Posts: 491
Registered: 7-2-2004
Location: Mediterranean
Member Is Offline
Mood: Quantized
|
|
I would suggest the construction of a simple fume hood, easily made from a sort of wooden box with a side which can be moved up and down. An extractor
is attached to the upper part of this 'box' and a pipe leading out of the building is attached to it. If properly constructed such a fume
hood will be excellent for any work in which gasses/vapours are involved.
Theory guides, experiment decides.
|
|
|
mick
Hazard to Others
Posts: 338
Registered: 3-10-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
A non-ventilated basement has got to be one of the worse, if not THE worse places to store chemicals an do chemistry except for non-toxic,
non-volatile, room temperature, aqueous stuff, check the chemistry set out down the toy shop. Serious though, besides the risk of poisoning yourself
and others, any flammable solvent + household electric could = explosion, any open flame or burning = lack of oxygen etc. Idealy you need air in and
air out which always blows away from you with the chemicals on the air out side.
mick
I once used a bit of conc ammonia and conc HCl to check where all the white cloud went, there is probably a better way now.
[Edited on 8-9-2004 by mick]
|
|
|
rift valley
Hazard to Others
Posts: 103
Registered: 24-7-2004
Location: NH
Member Is Offline
Mood: semiconducting
|
|
I also have a basement lab with one of those dinky little basement windows. If I do any thing with fumes I just go out to the back patio. Not really a
hassle for less complicated labs
|
|
|
mick
Hazard to Others
Posts: 338
Registered: 3-10-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Sorry if the last post was over the top but to me the older you get the more aware of the stuff you nearly did but did not. I started in the garden
shed and the ventilation was to open the door, the parents thought it was great, I had a hobby, my dad sorted all the wood out for the shelving and
cabinet, I put a padlock on it so my sister could not get in and it got me out the house. A few years later after all my stuff had been left in the
garden shed, my parents wanted to give it to a young cousin of mine and I had to go and check every thing. I did not let him have the conc nitric etc.
Like you said, when I wanted to make bromine, chlorine or burn something I went outside around the back of the shed.
Got to have a bit of a ramble now and again
Thanks
mick
My Mom did look a bit worried when I got the hose on full and had a serious pair of rubber gloves on while I poured some of the stuff down the outside
drain. As far as I know the drain never got blocked after that.
[Edited on 8-9-2004 by mick]
|
|
|
Dodoman
Hazard to Self
Posts: 79
Registered: 2-8-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
A good lab needs a dry place, good ventilation, good lighting a drain and a sink. And should not be built out of flamable materials like wood. Thats
my idea of a lab.
|
|
|
aikon
Unregistered
Posts: N/A
Registered: N/A
Member Is Offline
|
|
My lab is in the basement too and it don't have a window in it. I constructed a crude fume hood that sucks out most of the fumes during critical
experiments. Just make sure to store your chemicals properly.
|
|
|
Hulk
Harmless
Posts: 16
Registered: 11-8-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks for all the response.
Actually there is a small window and a dryer vent leading out. But they are on the other side of the basement. I was thinking of running flexible
dryer tubing with a bathroom venting fan from my area to the dryer vent and out. It would have to run about 20 to 25 ft. But I am not sure if that is
to long to travel.
I am building this lab more for biochem and molecular biology. But even then you need solvents for seperation and purification. So I will have to
build a fume hood as well. It could also be used as a sterile transfer hood. As well as staining.
Biological samples can give off many bad smells as well. Yeast ferments, etc.
I am going to have to rethink this.
Hulk
|
|
|
chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
Posts: 3005
Registered: 23-7-2003
Location: England Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: crystalline
|
|
Working in a biochem lab, I can tell you that the fume hood is rarely used, unless we are dealing with trifluoroacetic acid, solvents for peptide
synth, CO or betamercapto ethanol.
Most of the time, normal aircon is sufficient. If you truly want to get into biochm/mol. biol, then a fumehood/adequate ventilation is the least of
your problems!
For a hobby chem lab - mine is in the basement too - and the ventilation is... .the greatest fumehood on earth, OUTSIDE!
Always much safer. Where I expect things to be harmless, it will be done inside, but anything involving nasty gases/metal vapours/exothermic reactions
- outside.
In fact ... my parents are getting annoyed with my stuff - and it seems they are not strictly opposed to me building a shed outside (with insulation)
and moving everythign there! Much safer, they would be at peace, and me too 
I never liked the idea of having lots of chems right underneath the living room ... but often the lack of choice restricts your options 
[Edited on 9-9-2004 by chemoleo]
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
|
|
|
mick
Hazard to Others
Posts: 338
Registered: 3-10-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I have seen lots of old mahogany/ hard wood labs refitted with plastics/laminates etc. The mahogany labs had been there for 50 years surviving conc
acids and everything else and glassware friendly and more fire resistant than most of the stuff in any house. Every year just get a bunsen burner or a
torch and melt some good quality wax into the wood and that should seal and neutralise everything. The only problem I have heard of is with perchloic
acid. The refitted laminated/ plastic labs look good but
they will not last as long. I have seen so much skipped I feel guilty. I have got a few pieces to repair an old wooden framed camper van.
I think I am going of subject here.
mick
Back on subject, when you torched the bench every year with wax, you would have found any perchloric and there would not be a problem cause there was
only a bit.
[Edited on 9-9-2004 by mick]
[Edited on 9-9-2004 by mick]
|
|
|
Hermes_Trismegistus
National Hazard
Posts: 602
Registered: 27-11-2003
Location: Greece, Ancient
Member Is Offline
Mood: conformation:ga
|
|
Hulk;
Running a 20 foot dryer vent hose is a good idea. Better safe than sorry.
Many contributors have done good chemical work outside. But any man who has ever sat next to a campfire knows the location of the smoke, it is in his
eyes!
One of biochemistry's strongest workhorses and the one that is most accessible to the home laboratory, is chromatography. However, solvent
fumes, over long periods cause brain damage.
A fume hood is like most any other tool, in that it's cost is soon forgotten, but the value of the tool is seen to increase with
time and use.
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics; even if you win: you\'re still retarded.
|
|
|
Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
|
|
If you tie your fume hood vent line into that of your dryer you will get significant contamination of your dryer and whatever is in the dryer. You
really don't want all those nasty effluents in your shorts.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
|
|
|
Hulk
Harmless
Posts: 16
Registered: 11-8-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
That is true. What I am looking into is using a 'Y' connector at the entrance to the vent. This connector will have a shut off lever on both
ends of the 'Y'. I have seen them on furnaces. The only thing I am not sure of is how good of a seal it will make. Other than that I would
have to break into the concrete, something I would rather not do.
In the meantime I will continue to build my lab but only keep chemicals that are neccessary for my expperiments.
Hulk
|
|
|
Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
|
|
You've got the right idea. Large valves with good seals are available but they are heavy and expensive. You might instead consider a
quick-disconnect feature which would allow only one vent hose to be hooked up at a time. That way there is no possibility of a screw-up and costs
would be much lower. And if you didn't feel like you had a good seal at the lab line/vent connection you could always throw a couple of wraps of
duct tape around it.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
|
|
|
frogfot
Hazard to Others
Posts: 212
Registered: 30-11-2002
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: happy
|
|
Any idea where one could vent fumes frome fume-hood if one lives in an appartent house with neighbours in basically all directions??
Sofar I think activated carbon filter is the only way out, but question is how strong fan would this require..
|
|
|
neutrino
International Hazard
Posts: 1583
Registered: 20-8-2004
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: oscillating
|
|
If you have a dryer, you might consider using the outlet for steam, although I'm not sure if this could get back in the machine. The vapors could
also corrode the tube. If you have a kitchen with one of those fans that get rid of vapors you could also use that, with the same concerns.
What's wrong with the window? Just absorb the odors with something and pump what remains out the window, preferably with a lot of air mixed in
before it leaves the tube.
|
|
|
Hermes_Trismegistus
National Hazard
Posts: 602
Registered: 27-11-2003
Location: Greece, Ancient
Member Is Offline
Mood: conformation:ga
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by frogfot
Sofar I think activated carbon filter is the only way out, but question is how strong fan would this require.. |
FrogFot
It's not how strong of a fan the filter media would require, any real fan would do (hint, use suction as opposed to trying to blow the air out
through the filter)
It's a question of the volume YOU need. How many cubic feet of dangerous gasses per minute are you likely to generate?
Bigger is not always better, the more powerful fan you use, the faster you clog up the pores in your filter media.
Perhaps the rule of thumb could be to use the biggest fan you can get at a reasonable price.....
But you also have to consider the other considerations like how much room you have.
How much power can you draw from your circuits for extended periods without compromising the circuit integrity. This is especially relevent in an
apartment where you are extremely likely to want to use the same circuit for other uses simultaneously. For any of you not familiar with household
wiring, several wall plugs are usually on the same circuit breaker, you'll actually have to walk around with a lamp and check them to be sure of
which is which, for instance both sides of a facing was almost always share plugs. In some older apartments that means that your next door neighbor
might share the same circuit with you on your adjoining wall.
Also, how much space do you have?
How much noise are you willing to tolerate?
What kind of vapours are you going to be venting, If you are going to be venting solvent vapours then you either need a sparkless vent motor or you
need enough flowthrough to prevent the vapours from reaching the required vapour density to explode (which is a helluva lot more solvent in the
air than most chemists realise)
To need to worry about explosion of vapour you would have to be boiling the solvents directly off into the air and have almost NO draw from the fan
and the charcoal filter removed.
but anyway, you will need to design a system around your personal needs. Luckily it really isn't rocket science.
Hermes.
[Edited on 16-9-2004 by Hermes_Trismegistus]
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics; even if you win: you\'re still retarded.
|
|
|
Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
|
|
Frogfoot I assume that your objective is to vent an air stream that is free from visible, noxious, and/or toxic contaminants. To design and build a
system that would remove all such contaminants is a tall order. But here are some guidelines:
(1) for particulates a filter is in order such as a furnace filter, filter for a vacuum cleaner, or in the extreme, a HEPA filter;
(2) for organic vapors activated carbon is generally good;
(3) for water soluble gases a water scrubber ( tank with spray nozzle and water source/drain or recirculation pump).
This will require a fan (or blower), filter housing, and ducting, and possibly a water recirculation pump.
To see how specific the adsorbing media can get check out MSA's website at:
http://www.msa.net.com/
As you can see this is not "quick and dirty." If you want that use a large window fan, as suggested by Hermes.
[Edited on 16-9-2004 by Magpie]
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
|
|
|
frogfot
Hazard to Others
Posts: 212
Registered: 30-11-2002
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: happy
|
|
Thanks for the replys I had in mind to vent mostly single destillation setups,
so I guess a 100X100X50 cm polyethylene bag covered box will do.. I can always have an additional scrubber on basically any setup, if experiment gives
off quantitative ammounts of gases (and placing such setup into a fume-hood would make one more confident).
It would be nice to have both water scrubber and coal, hopefully this will increase lifetime of coal filter. But seems like this will be alot of work.
This about noice is critical... well I wanna be able to stay in same room without going crazy 
Btw, link doesn't work..
|
|
|
Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
|
|
Frogfot,
Noise is a factor for fans. You will see the noise level of a fan or blower rated in sones or dbA. My salvaged furnace blower is noisy. Fans for
room and window use aren't too bad. I saw a small blower being used to keep a large inflatable children's toy (for jumping & bouncing)
pumped up that was remarkably quiet.
That MSA website address is a little flaky. When it pops up toggle on the "MSA Official Website" link. Then go to respirator cartridges.
Then you have to be able to read the cartridge codes, such as MerSorb for mercury, OV for organic vapor, P100 for 100% of particulates, etc. The
Western Safety site actually gives more straightforward information on these codes.
Magpie
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
|
|
|
David Marx
Harmless
Posts: 47
Registered: 13-8-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Intrigued
|
|
The correct link is msanet.com for MSA mine safety and firefighting apparatus. They make a large variety of equipment including gas detection and
filtration media.
alea iacta est
|
|
|
JohnWW
International Hazard
Posts: 2849
Registered: 27-7-2004
Location: New Zealand
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Re msa.com: In the "good old days" miners took canaries down mines, especially coal mines, as early-warning detectors of dangerous
concentrations of inflammble or poisonous or suffocating gases, like CH4 or CO or CO2. Automated infrared gas analysers are mostly used now. It wold
be as well to have one in a laboratory if such gases are likely to build up due to limited ventilation.
John W.
|
|
|
MadHatter
International Hazard
Posts: 1339
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Maine
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enjoying retirement
|
|
Ventilation
Frogfot, I also live in an apartment. I use a small box fan to push any
noxious vapors out the window. The last time it was small amounts of
chlorine while making perchlorate. I got no complaints from my
neighbors.
From opening of NCIS New Orleans - It goes a BOOM ! BOOM ! BOOM ! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
