plante1999
International Hazard
Posts: 1936
Registered: 27-12-2010
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Mood: Mad as a hatter
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Better prepublication sub forum
It is known that we have a sub forum named prepublication, however, many, many prepublication have not been put into the publication page, in fact,
probably none in the last years. As such, the prepublication sub forum do not have the name related to its use. I have the sad fealling sciencemadness
years where about 2005-2007 and it sadden me the ounce quality is starting to fall apart. This is very sad, as it would be nice to have a good
database of user done reactions. When we look on other forums, such as versuchchemie, there is a really nice section about synthesis.
http://www.versuchschemie.de/forum,37.html
It has explanations, equations, pictures, how it should be done. Sadly, the prepublication sub-forum is not like this, at all. I think it would be
time to make another sub forum for synthesis, with a moderator only for it. As such, the publications would fallow a good standard of quality, which
would represent well sciencemadness.
Not that actual prepublications are not good, they are simply all different formats. I believe there is something to do to change this.
I never asked for this.
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Mailinmypocket
International Hazard
Posts: 1351
Registered: 12-5-2011
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That would indeed be a very neat addition to the forum, I am always impressed with the nice syntheses sections on lambdasyn and versuchchemie. There
are some very nice synthesis posts on sciencemadness that are rather scattered around deep in the subforums, having them in one place would be a nice
idea. Our prepublication section is very nice for what it contains however I think there are lots of beautiful projects done by members that deserve
to be in there that aren't etc.
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bfesser
Resident Wikipedian
Posts: 2114
Registered: 29-1-2008
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I would like to volunteer to edit pre-publications and create a common style guide for them (I have a hardcopy of <a
href="http://pubs.acs.org/isbn/9780841239999" target="_blank">The ACS Style Guide</a> just waiting for use). I don't have the necessary
Adobe software installed at the moment, but I can dig it out of my junk.
I'm knowledgable about spelling, grammar, punctuation, usage, etc.  When I was
younger, I took half a dozen writing classes (Junior High School through University). So, if I don't remember a rule, I can look it up in one of the
leftover textbooks. Finally, I have plenty of spare time to review and edit submissions, as I'm currently unemployed and can't perform any
experiments in my new apartment.
P.S. I'm also a stickler for proper citations!
<strong>tl;dr</strong> — I volunteer to serve as an editor, as I've got nothing better to do.
[Edited on 6/21/13 by bfesser]
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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I agree that there are quite a few useful syntheses discovered by forum members that are not found in the Prepublication forum. It would just take
some work by the authors to place them in a procedure format and present them in Prepublication. I can usually find the ones I need with a little
searching. It would be nice to have them all in one place. And I'm surely not aware of them all.
Of lesser importance, IMO, would be placing them in a standard, fancy format. I do like the versuchschemie format, however.
I will spend some time finding some of those hidden procedures that I think are valuable. I will identify them in this thread.
[Edited on 22-6-2013 by Magpie]
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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Here are examples of what I mean by some of the unpublished procedures embedded in this forum. These are just off the top of my head without doing
any searching:
° boron tri-oxide from boric acid
°phthalic anhydride from phthalic acid
°benzaldehyde from benzyl alcohol
°ammonium molybdate from MoS2
°anhydrous NaOAc from hydrated NaOAc
°NaNO2 from NaNO3
°KCN from K ferrocyanide (possibly inadvisable)
°HgCl2 from Hg
I'm sure there are many more.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Random
International Hazard
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Location: In ur closet
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Peach has some interesting procedures as well. I highly support the idea as the database of existing syntheses would motivate other people to
contribute more.
I think a great way would be to discuss in sections which already exist and then if someone actually succeeds in the experiment and sucessfully
synthesizes a new compound, then someone can edit the post onto the standard publication format. It would be great, as I have spend a lot of time
looking at lambdasyn syntheses but still this is my home forum for chemistry.
If I had to thank anyone for my chemistry knowledge, then those would be SM members.
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The_Davster
A pnictogen
Posts: 2861
Registered: 18-11-2003
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Mood: .
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So there would be large demand for a site that you upload text, photos, references and youtube videos to, and formats it into a fancy, general format?
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Boffis
International Hazard
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I have read some of plante1999 recent posts and I rather agree that there has been a decline in the quality of posts in the last few years. There are
far too many replies that are simply irrelevant drivel by people how have nothing better to do. This greatly undermines the original posters desire to
continue posting experimental details let alone post the developed procedure in the Prepublication Forum. This happened to me recently with this
thread:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24047
Having seen the number of post about how difficult it is to obtain obscure chemicals and having found that large amounts of one particularly
interesting precursor were being offered on eBay in small (100-200g) quantities and at a reasonable price I decided to investigate the use of this
material. So I posted a series of experiments in the organic section looking at the preparation of useful compounds from this precursor. After seeing
the quality of the responses my post solicited I lost interest in the project and while I will continue with the project I won’t bother posting the
results, let alone produce a series of syntheses for the Prepublication Forum. I had hoped that the thread would result in suggestions for other
possible derivative that we could try and produce from this precursor while allowing others to get their hands on the materials to try some of the
procedures themselves. The aim was a series of syntheses suitable for the “garage chemists” to be posted in Prepublications but only one relevant
contribution, from Anders Hoveland, was forthcoming the rest were meaningless rubbish. So this project is never likely to go any further and the
original precursor has since sold out or been removed from eBay.
I posted my original experiments in the organic forum because they were just preliminary experiments, not clear procedure with supportive data on the
products (I never got round to recrystallizing the material) but the ultimate aim was a post in Prepublication.
I like the idea of having a further forum for “final” works, effectively a database of well-tried and discussed procedures that have been through
some editing to ensure technical and grammatical consistency but I worry that there are too few experimentalist and too many armchair pontificators
for this ever to happen.
A couple of examples of this malaise come from some of the better threads; take for example the thread dealing with the preparation of cuprous and
silver cyanides from ferrocyanides;
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24764
The original poster pointed out that these are potential precursors for a wide variety of compound but no-one took him up on this point; for instance
cuprous cyanide can be used to prepare cyanogen form which you can prepare dithioxamide and then diaminoglyoxime. From this point on you can use the
excellent prepublication post of Axt to gain access to a whole series of furazan derivatives. Who would have though Furazans from ferrocyanides!
On a similar vein, there are many references on this SM to the aminoguanidines but as far as I can see no one has actually tried the preparation of di
and triaminoguanidines. I have but discovered that the published isolation procedures in the literature are very poor, too lacking in detail or only
isolate the compounds as derivatives to be of any synthetic use. I am currently working on this issue but the fact that as far as I can see no one
has ever commented on these failings suggests that no one else has actually tried any of the syntheses.
It becomes a self-fulfilling problem if potential members with an experimental outlook visit the site and think “Oh yes! Armchair pontificators”
and move on while at the same time the armchair brigade pour derision on the ones we already have.
I find it curious that the German language arena boasts at least two similar forums with synthesis databases while the potentially much larger English
language arena can’t manage to get its act together on one.
From the nature of some the posts there is a considerable amount of interesting chemistry being done out there but if you want the experimenters to
post their results and procedures the armchair brigade with need to be a little more supportive and generate fewer banal and idiotic posts. Failure to
do this will be a failure to encourage those who actually do experiments to share their result.
On to a constructive note; I suggest having a “directory” of experimental procedures and syntheses that can only be viewed or downloaded; there
would be no facility to post comments. A procedure would only be posted to this site once it has been in the prepublication forum for sufficient time
for people to comment on it. The relevant forum thread would remain open even after the procedure has been posted to the directory. A moderator would
be responsible for determining what should be allowed into this database and controlling quality; only he and the original author should be able to
edit the document.
One final point; just because you are an amateur scientist does not me you have to be amateurish!
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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As I stated up thread there are potentially many useful syntheses that have been developed by SM members. They could be formatted into useful
procedures by the developers. This could all be done within the Prepublication forum as we now do it. This system does not yield procedures that are
as standardized, concise, complete, and elegant as those found on versuchschemie, but it works. The reason I feel that we do not have more such
procedures in Prepublication is that they can take a lot of time and effort, ie, work. The author has to feel that not only has he
found something worth the effort to publish, but that it will also be appreciated and used. Somehow we have to make it worthwhile for the developers
to publish their valuable and sometimes hard-earned procedures.
A given procedure may not generate a lot of comments and interest at the time it is presented. The author may have to hope that with the passage of
time the interest and use will justify his effort. By looking at the number of views over, say a year, you can see how many were interested enough to
at least open it up.
I usually have 3 or 4 syntheses that I am working on off-and-on. Just because someone comes up with an interesting new synthesis does not mean that I
am going to just drop what I'm right in the middle of doing. But I will remember the subject and value the fact that I can go back and read or use it
later.
I'm not so much concerned by armchair pontification: knowledgeable members recognize that for what it is worth. Versuchschemie may also have its
share of those kind of comments. I just never see them as they have their syntheses isolated from the general conversations. Since translating from
German to English is work, I don't read them.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Arsole
Hazard to Self
Posts: 52
Registered: 21-1-2012
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sleepy
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I agree completely with what has been said here. I have been slowly acquiring my equipment to do some of the interesting experiments that have been
posted in prepublication. The published section looks pretty good and has inspired me to read more and explore the procedures I hope to one day
attempt.
That being said, the form is mashed together in a way that invites discussion and exploration. Not necessarily a beautiful paper.
I feel it is important to have a well manicured member publication section to give members something to work for. A place where they can display that
hard work and the sciencemadness community shows they recognize that commitment. I feel this may help to improve the quality of the postings we have
been seeing lately.
The procedures would also be much easier to reference in the forms.
Please make this happen.
[Edited on 8-27-2013 by Arsole]
[Edited on 8-27-2013 by Arsole]
Thoughts, like fleas, jump from man to man, but they don't bite everybody.
-Stanisław Jerzy Lec
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