chief
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Special (hypothetical) materials by Damascus-sword-like layer-creation
As inspired by the "sword-forging"- thread here the following idea:
2 or more materials (ductile) folded gives 4 layers, folded again 8 layers, folded n times 2**n layers ....
Only necessary to fold 10-20 times for the layers to reach thinness of atomic scale ... ; probably lot's of applications possible, depending on what
chemical or physical properties the starting materials have ...
Just to share the idea ....
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IrC
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The Japanese have been doing this since the ancient days of ninja warriors. San Mei III is a modern knife and sword metal forming method, heated,
folded and beaten several times to produce the desired result which is based upon Japanese methods being used when the people of Europe were still
throwing rocks at each other. The edge they create is so hard and strong down to amazingly thin and sharp blades they can pierce very thick metal if
driven with enough force. Alternating layers of various hardness and composition give a finished blade which can hold an edge after going through
metal while eliminating the tendency of the blade to break even at extreme hardness of the outer layer.
Did not want to bust your bubble but the idea was thought up in the oriental world probably over a millennium ago.
[Edited on 3-27-2009 by IrC]
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not_important
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Quote: Originally posted by IrC  | | ...which is based upon Japanese methods being used when the people of Europe were still throwing rocks at each other... |
Given that bronze and iron making arrived in Japan during the Yayoi period, approximately contemporaneous with the Hellinistic period and Roman
republic & Empire, that statement seems doubtful.
South Asia was smelting iron by 1800 BCE, the Middle East about 500 years later, and China around 600 to 500 BCE; the Han possibly learning iron
working from the Tocharians or Zhang Zhung. By the time iron smelting reached Japan, the Indians were producing crucible steel. Norther Europe was
smelting bog iron ores no later than 1.000 BCE and likely by 2.000 BCE.
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chief
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Of course the idea is old, as I mentioned. But the interesting watson-fawkes-calculation from the other thread about sword forging inspired me,
because of 2 reasons:
==> Few actions are needed to create _lots_ of layers,
==> and those layers get very thin, down to the atomic scale after not so many foldings !
Eg. 2**30 == 1073741824 , so there will be 1,073,741,824 layers after only 30 folding-operations . If the sheet is kept 1 mm thick this means a
thickness for the individual layer of only 1 nm ! Thats a great effect for such a lousy action as folding ... !
Also: I didn't mean metallurgy at all ; take eg. 2 sorts of plastics, with different refractive indexes, and a bragg-mirror is possible, or 2D optical
waveguide, or maybe something interesting and new ...
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Swede
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Chief, mathematically you are correct in your presumptions, but the reality of the material after folding isn't one of perfect, even layers. Rather
than getting a bazillion 1nm layers, the layers themselves will be breached in thousands of spots, resulting in more of a matrix than a series of
layers. I would assume this would happen with plastics as well.
I'm sure you've seen videos of the hand-forging of swords... Beating red-hot steel with hammers isn't a precision operation!
That said, the Japanese were very clever. Out of a batch of cast iron, the master smith would select nuggets or pieces based upon hardness (carbon
content), and begin the layering operation by sandwiching the hard nuggets between softer sections. When the folding begins, ultimately the steel
takes on the characteristics of both... hard, yet springy. If he randomly selected the starting pieces, you'd end up with a mix of swords, some too
soft to take an edge, others too hard that would break.
With all that said, the spirit of this whole board is one of experimentalism, so don't let anything anybody says stop you from giving something a try.
Good luck!
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chief
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It doesn't have to be hammered, but can be rolled as well ; and for some interesting optical effects it's sufficient to have micrometer-layers ...
Maybe also the burning-speed of some stuff can be regulatesd like this: One of the primary-layers has more oxygen than necessary, the other layer
less, and by the number of foldings the speed increases ... ;
Or: Mixing materials, which otherwise wouldn't be mixable ...
Of course when it comes down to the nm-range the layers will break up etc ...
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watson.fawkes
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| Quote: Originally posted by Swede | | Chief, mathematically you are correct in your presumptions, but the reality of the material after folding isn't one of perfect, even layers. Rather
than getting a bazillion 1nm layers, the layers themselves will be breached in thousands of spots, resulting in more of a matrix than a series of
layers. |
It's even more than that. One thing to consider with anything like this is boundary effects. The 2-D
boundary of a 3-D solid is like a different material. So it's not accurate to think of this as simply cutting and pasting and squashing. Rather than
this operation pasting together two layers, it's better to think of it as six, three each for two piece, the three being two surface layers and one
bulk layer. If you add a "glue" layer, you've got seven layers (or even nine). Not at all a simple matter.
Another aspect is the internal bulk elasticity of the material. Every time you deform something, you're entraining internal stresses. Without an
operation to relieve those stress, the material breaks or becomes unworkable. With metal, heat treatment is ordinary to relieve such stresses. With
other materials, heat may or may not be suitable.
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Sedit
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What are the optical effects people are discussing here all about?
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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chief
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Eg. here is an idea: Use as carrier-material some sort of paraffine or polyethylene, with not too high working-temperature .
The material would have to be capable of quite complete evaporation.
==> Now half of that paraffine or whatever is mixed with very fine IronOxide,
==> the other half is mixed with very fine Alyuminum, Sulfur or whatever
This then is folded that many times (at a temperature where the paraffine is well workable) ; after evaporation of the paraffine the result is some
very interesting thermite, maybe even of the quality which they said was used at the 9/11 beam-cuttings ... ... , which was said (at least by some
weird conspirationalists) to have been some high performance thermite that burns fast and does busines very quickly ... (one of it's characteristics
was a layered appearance of the nano-stuff)
Or another one: The thing with production of thin layers, eg. for sulfide-solar-cells: The materials again mixed, the carrier evaporated and then the
material annealed at some temperature ..., ready would be most of the solar cell, if optimally done the right way ...
Since rolling equipment is standard technology, and maybe partially unused in some upcoming crisis, this might give lots of other possibilities too
...
[Edited on 27-3-2009 by chief]
[Edited on 27-3-2009 by chief]
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IrC
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| Quote: Originally posted by not_important | | Quote: Originally posted by IrC | | ...which is based upon Japanese methods being used when the people of Europe were still throwing rocks at each other... |
Given that bronze and iron making arrived in Japan during the Yayoi period, approximately contemporaneous with the Hellinistic period and Roman
republic & Empire, that statement seems doubtful.
South Asia was smelting iron by 1800 BCE, the Middle East about 500 years later, and China around 600 to 500 BCE; the Han possibly learning iron
working from the Tocharians or Zhang Zhung. By the time iron smelting reached Japan, the Indians were producing crucible steel. Norther Europe was
smelting bog iron ores no later than 1.000 BCE and likely by 2.000 BCE.
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I was really implying how old the idea was in the orient rather than commenting upon known recorded history and timelines. That said the asian races
had the oldest and most technically advanced civilizations known to man. I doubt recorded history would have known of the exact dates of military
secrets and since Japanese peoples were likely to have had traffic with China long before the western world even knew of their existence it may well
be possible my exaggeration has more merit than you may know.
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not_important
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| Quote: Originally posted by IrC | ... I doubt recorded history would have known of the exact dates of military secrets and since Japanese peoples were likely to have had traffic with
China long before the western world even knew of their existence it may well be possible my exaggeration has more merit than you may know.
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Google archaeology.
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Sedit
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The chinese where very well kept as far as keeping recorded records,dates, and things of that nature so any communication with japanese would be
relativly well documented.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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IrC
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I stand by my theory. Most history students overlook the fact that people are the same today as they were back then (meaning the inverse is true).
The masters had their secrets and they were either handed down as secrets well kept to select few or died with them, lost to history, and so on.
Much of this info (just as is recorded today in secret) were military secrets and not put in books for public review, not to mention they had no
information technology as exists today so you need to see it from the perspective of that time insofar as what you think is known or will be known. I
believe if the library of alexandria had not been lost almost all of our knowledge of history would be quite different than what we now believe.
It never ceases to amaze me how students cling to what academia teaches as the truth and nothing but the truth excluding all else as possible. What
would you have thought in the 50's with your masters degree had I put forth the idea that one of the most advanced mechanical computers ever devised
by man for computing astronomical positions was laying at the bottom of the sea for milenia? We know this now to be true because it was discovered in
recent times, and was realized to be what it is, just not long ago.
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chief
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As long as it's about the ancient "asian races" beeing superior (which might be seen as some sort of racism too ...), there are well archeological
records linking the asian culture to northern european races, such as scandinavians and kelts, in a way that it might be possible that the asians had
their stuff from the europeans, especially some things they are proud of:
http://www.acolina.de/content/vuz/chinasmumien.htm
[Edited on 29-3-2009 by chief]
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Swede
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There is definitely a romance associated with Japanese metallurgy, but they eventually stagnated, as did the Chinese. By the time Portuguese
explorers arrived, they (the Europeans) had globe-trotting sailing vessels, navigation, cannon, and matchlock muskets. The Japanese had their typical
Samurai weaponry.
There is solid evidence that the Chinese had a giant fleet of deep-ocean ships in the 1400's, and paid visits to Venice and other places, but then,
they simply scrapped the fleet, became isolationists along with the Japanese, and due to lack of intellectual exchange, both of their cultures
stagnated.
I personally believe there was a lot more trading and exploration going on between 0 and 1,000 A.D. than written history would account for.
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IrC
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"As long as it's about the ancient "asian races" beeing superior (which might be seen as some sort of racism too ...)"
My question is who gives a damn what it might be perceived as? Does this mean truth as is PC takes precedence over the real truth? Would I not have to
actually be asian for this to be racism?
Since I am Cherokee indian mixed with a small amount of some form or other of european ancestry where does this leave your perception? So I must ask,
if an american indian talks about the technological superiority of an ancient asian culture is it racism or is it merely a correct factual
observation? I see more of this mindset every day and I believe all the academic learning going on today is useless wasted crapola if what you are
taught as "truth" must be altered to accommodate your notion of someone Else's feelings! If your education no longer allows true reality then your
money and time are wasted. Speaking as a person of american indian descent I believe you and the rest of world society have all gone off the F'ing
reservation! Truth is truth and no amount of alteration to change it for the correct feeling perception of others will ever make the real truth
"untrue". If this is the way of the academic world today be advised the paper used to print your degrees and the money you spent for this education,
makes a poor substitute for toilet paper.
Getting back to the topic I agree they had a good thing going and then isolated themselves into intellectual stagnation, ironic that your universities
are doing the same thing today however. We should include the Persian world also in terms of ancient advancement in sword forging not to mention other
areas of scientific advancement.
The western world took many of these long held secrets and ran with it all the way up to the industrial revolution. I imagine the asian races should
not be counted out however. Using China as example while I believe their government sucks the people are amazing! I see the people rapidly advancing
in technology and they will quickly outstrip the rest of us if we sit idly by complacent in our little PC world. People have a way of balancing out
history no matter what the government given enough time (and this includes all of us in the world). OK, so I was partially getting back to the topic
but in defense I felt it important to answer and counter the statement quoted above before this topic devolved into a nanny-babbling debate on what
feels correct to speak on the subject.
It makes one wonder who traded what knowledge, wavy steel may owe some of it's appearance to steps used in the old san mei folding knowledge.
"I personally believe there was a lot more trading and exploration going on between 0 and 1,000 A.D. than written history would account for."
I agree. In ancient indian stories much which must have come from what was Israel is known, just as the Viking did explore the northern Americas in
old times.
"... I doubt recorded history would have known of the exact dates of military secrets and since Japanese peoples were likely to have had traffic with
China long before the western world even knew of their existence it may well be possible my exaggeration has more merit than you may know.
Google archaeology."
I think I must give up on this topic now as my bulls**t meter is pegged, seeing no free thinkers left. I meant there were many secrets still unknown!
What the hell would google give me other than what you think is known already? You by this comment prove my earlier point that the acedemic world at
every microsecond in it's existence always assumes what they think they know is all things while never once taking stock at the insane number of
times you have proven yourselves wrong. How can you think you know so much without ever taking stock in the large number of times you have proven
yourselves wrong, only to run with this "new" information thinking you know all? You historically stand in your own way in the pursuit of "peer
reviewed truth" with politics influencing what is acceptable knowledge: and I wonder if it will ever end. I only digress into all of this in reference
to racism being brought up by the originator of this thread. Since it is his thread any topic brought up by him should be fair game.
In any case my original point was the folding method existed in antiquity in the orient and I believe this was prior to such knowledge in other parts
of the world.
[Edited on 3-29-2009 by IrC]
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not_important
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Among other things, archaeology finds stuff lost and buried, it is not 'history' in the sense of official written records. If you find a type of
tool, manufacturing technique, or material appearing in various sites dated to a certain period, this is good evidence of the use of that. If you
fail to find such, it is suggestive of than not being in use or even unknown to that culture.
Another aspect used is that of language and word origins. Loan words in a language show contact with other cultures, when those loan words are
associated with physical objects or action it suggests that the physical aspects were unknown to the borrowing language before the contact with a
culture that loaned the terms associated with those physical aspects. An example might be the introduction of a inland desert culture to pearls,
coral, and shells; they might form new terms from their own language or adopt those of the culture bring those goods to them.
In China these early loan words are often easy to spot, as the early Han and pre-Han language was monosyllabic and loan words tended to be
multisyllabic phonetic equivalents that had entirely different meanings when taken as the base symbols or were just nonsense. Similarly loan words
from Han to surrounding peoples usually stand out from those roots of those other languages.
As a relatively recent example, the spread of Buddhism from south Asia to the north and east can be followed by the introduction of loan words
associated with aspects of Buddhism and to a less degree with the names of deities and other supernatural beings. In the case of Buddhism there is
also the physical evidence of monasteries, artwork and other related objects, writings, and so on. There is also documentation from the locations
and periods in question, governments often keeping track of these outside thoughts and the Daoists were interested in these new thoughts as well.
Chinese has a number of old loan words showing contact with cultures of south, central, and northern Asian. One example is Kun Lun -
昆仑 - the region of Daoist paradise; likely from the Tocharian term for heaven or sky and related to Latin caelum (kai lum). Several
technologies commonly stated to be Chinese in origin have loan words at their core, suggesting that they may have come from other cultures.
As for more tangible stuff, one of the oldest iron based tools found in China was an iron bladed ax or tomahawk, the iron was of meteoric origin. The
earliest examples of smelted iron there is in the mid 500s BCE. Contrast this with the of iron in India in the early to mid 2nd millennium BCE with
large scale smelting by 1200 BCE, examples of iron working in Africa in the same time period, and the same or slightly later period in the Near East.
Europe was a bit later, earliest in northern and eastern Europe at roughly 1000 BCE and reaching all areas by 500 BCE.
The Chinese were likely the first to produce cast iron on any significant scale, doing so around 200-150 BCE. There are a few examples from earlier
scattered about the world, but it appears that these may have been accidental rather than a repeated production method. They later also mixed cast
and wrought iron to produce steels more readily than the simple decarbonisation process.
Wootz steel, the steel used to produce Damascus blades, is believed to have originated in southern India around 300 BCE.; there are a few claims of an
earlier Chinese origin. This topic is contested and seems to be fueled by Indi-Sino rivalry, to me the Indian claim seems the more likely.
If the secret masters in Asia had iron working before then, they neither shared it with their countrymen nor produced many items of that metal, as
only meteoric iron is found there before the mid-1st millennium BCE. A layered blade can be made using sections of meteoric and conventionally
smelted iron, and this could have been done once smelted iron became available.
This technique could have been developed in parts of eastern Asia once iron became available, before the rise of the Damascus blade. Indeed pattern
welded steels were used by the Merovingians and later the Vikings, I'm pretty sure the Merovingian use predates the Damascus blades although without
the use of Wootz steel from southern India, which gave enhanced qualities to the Damascus product.
I don't know when the 1st Chinese production of welded blades occurred, I don't think there is any evidence of such blades anywhere before 100-200 CE.
Note that Jigane folded iron, based on Shingane and Kawagane irons, would be extremely unlikely to have been made before the introduction of iron
working from China; the earliest forms of it seem to date from after 700 CE.
As for BS, you were the one with the "throwing rocks" statement of European barbarianism at the time of the development of layered iron techniques in
Asia. European metalworking goes back to at least the 4th millennium BCE, at which point they'd hardly be "throwing rocks" although they were moving
them around to build megaliths. This is far different than
| Quote: | | my original point was the folding method existed in antiquity in the orient and I believe this was prior to such knowledge in other parts of the
world. |
which is much less inflammatory.
While doing this you offered no evidence of the mastery of this method circa 4.000 BCE, instead resorting on hidden knowledge of the secret masters -
the same proof as offered by followers of Ramtha, Raël , Marshall Applewhite, and Summum Bonum Amon Ra (who was at least entertaining).
So I'm calling you - I declare that the ancient civilization of Doggerland not only perfected the method of folded iron blades, but traveled to other
stars in their AFAL fusion powered space ships. They lived for centuries through the aid of monoatomic gold, a white powder with antigravity
properties that defeats all test for gold and is made from sand using lye and HCl. The Hidden Ones have given me this knowledge, if you don't accept
it then you are assuming what you think you know is all things. Disprove my assertions without the use of peer reviewed truth (which is pretty close
to the definition of science).
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IrC
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Luckily, I don't need to. I will just wait for your starship friends to return and set the record straight.
Or curved, they may be using space folding technology.
I think you missed my point about politics and favored beliefs wrecking advancement in peer reviewed science however.
"They lived for centuries through the aid of monoatomic gold, a white powder with antigravity properties that defeats all test for gold and is made
from sand using lye and HCl. The Hidden Ones have given me this knowledge, if you don't accept it then you are assuming what you think you know is all
things."
This does worry me, it appears you spend much time in study of these subjects. Also I am unsure how you think my belief that these civilizations
having such knowledge earlier than what is accepted equals a personal attack against you.
[Edited on 3-30-2009 by IrC]
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watson.fawkes
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| Quote: Originally posted by IrC | | This does worry me, it appears you spend much time in study of these subjects. Also I am unsure how you think my belief that these civilizations
having such knowledge earlier than what is accepted equals a personal attack against you. |
Your sarcasm
detector is broken. Your fly might be open, too, but I can't tell that over the internet.
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watson.fawkes
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| Quote: Originally posted by not_important |
As for more tangible stuff, one of the oldest iron based tools found in China was an iron bladed ax or tomahawk, the iron was of meteoric origin.
[...] A layered blade can be made using sections of meteoric and conventionally smelted iron, and this could have been done once smelted iron became
available. |
Has this been tested? There's some great work in archaeometallurgy out there. My personal
favorite is tracing ancient trade routes by impurities from the ore and smelting process. It would seem like a straight ahead project to check the
trace content of the different layers of a sword with a bombardment technique.
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IrC
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I don't think so.
[Edited on 3-31-2009 by IrC]
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