pip
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Sigma Aldrich
So after browsing thier website like 20 times and inquiring about sodium formate for precipitating platinum they sent me two catalogs. (very
unexpected)One is for chemicals and the other lab glassware. I know they are expencive but I have also heard that they are hard to order from. Are
they really that hard to get stuff from or is it one of those as long as it isn't suspicious don't worry. btw they did approve me for the sodium
formate but i decided to make it myself.
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Magpie
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| Quote: |
btw they did approve me for the sodium formate but i decided to make it myself.
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Very interesting. Were you able to get permission to order the sodium formate as a private individual, ie, without having to claim or prove
affiliation with an institution?
Do you think getiing permission to order a chemical will only be given to you on a case-by-case basis, or do you now have a regular account and are
able to order in general?
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hissingnoise
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I would be wary of ordering *anything* from SA.
Not only will they refuse to supply you, they may just pass you on to LE.
Being a large corporation, they tend to adhere to the letter of the law.
Small outfits are generally safer, IMO. . .
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Sauron
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I buy from them via their Thailand agent.
The only time I avoid them is when they want hazmat fees and then I buy from their European arm Fluka.
Naturally when I can find it cheaper elsewhere, I do, but sometimes S-A is the only game in town.
Outside USA they are easy to deal with.
Inside they have no choice but to comply with the draconian requirements of various federal laws that require them to exercise due diligance about who
they sell to, the penalties for lab suppliers are SEVERE and so they take the safe route and sell only to corporate, institutional and
academic/governmental customers. And yes I believe they run all buyers past the DEA.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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BromicAcid
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As far as I know, only certain items go past the DEA, like most places, there is a list. If you are approved though, good job, it's a somewhat
difficult process from what I hear (read as nearly impossible) to get approved as a private individual. They're a good company but not bargain
basement, excellent quality control and customer service however.
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Sauron
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The DEA is hardly the only LE agency with chemical concerns.
Remember the DHS "chemicals of concern" list which is massive?
I am sure ATFE has their own lists.
Look at it from the "lab supplier" point of view. (I know it is a stupid term but it is the term used in the laws.) The trend in US legislation is to
make the seller of chemicals, glassware etc. liable (with massive penalties civil and criminal designed to smother and intimidate) if they are found
to have sold to someone who turns out to be, according to LE, a drug maker, WHAM! the company is in deep shit. Executives and employees in court or
jail, etc.
Any corporate officer or manager is going to look at this situation and say "To hell with this. We will err on the side of caution." Sales to
individuals are a nuisance, represent trivial money for maximum admin, and now, pose a genuine and potentially fatal threat due to this altogether
unfair shifting of the burden by the govt to the private sector.
From the corpoprate point of view, it is simply prudent to eliminate ALL sales to individuals and to ask DEA to vet ALL sales, regardless of whether
or not the items are on any of those phoneybaloney lists.
See, doing that eliminates the potential for admin error. It shifts the burden right back to the DEA etc. who are overwhelmed with ridiculous reports.
The company has "covered its ass" and I bet will document every such communication in triplicate against some future need. "You see, your Honor, we
were duly diligent. We reported this inquiry for sodium chloride to the DEA and DEA said Joe Blow was not in their database as a violator."
NO ONE in the corporate culture is going to worry about privacy issues, constitutional rights, etc when they have bullshit like the Comprehensive
Methamphetamine Control Act and the Patriot Act and whatever, on the desk of their legal department.
No. They are going to hire one more clerk to generate cover-your-ass paper with redundancy, demonstrating that the company was awfully concerned about
potential chemical diversion, illicit use of glassware, bumps in the night, marsh gas, apparitions of Elvis, people making nukes in their garages out
of popsickle sticks, etc etc etc.
One more unpaid clerk for the Feds.
Surely you can see the perverse logic of it?
Play it safe, cover your ass, rat on your customers and help the Grand Inquisitors make their little lists.
No one in any chemical company is going to buck this trend.
Go look and see how the Chlorine Institute is dealing with the bunker mentality of the War on Terror.
It'll terrify you.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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MagicJigPipe
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Oh god! I swear, a "chlorine bomb" could not be lower on my list of concerns. I'm more afraid of the perpetual encroachment of big nanny government
on my natural rights. I feel that the average American is completely ignorant and clueless on more than their share of subjects. This is exactly why
stupid, sensationalistic crap like this continues to flow from American's mouths like feces from the ass of a withdrawing heroin addict with
dysentery.
From my one experience with SA I can tell you that (at least in my case) they don't give a damn about individual customers. If based my opinion
solely on my experience I would say they despise individual consumers. From what I recall I was literally talked down to and told to "take my $X
elsewhere". I wasn't too serious about ordering from them as I expected that to happen. I was just seeing what everyone was talking about.
However, I must say that that wasn't the worst experience I've had.
So, in conclusion, they don't seem to like to deal with individuals, but neither do any other medium to large sized chemical suppliers (and most small
ones) in the US. So, if you got "approved" you were definitely lucky, even if you do have a business license of some sort.
EDIT
Catalogs are a different story though. Ace, Fisher and Kimble/Chase were all more than willing to give me all of their "literature". Just don't let
them find out you don't own/run/work at a lab or they will probably firebomb your house and put a potato in your tailpipe.
[Edited on 12-31-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Sauron
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I think they despise drug cooks and are simply indifferent to all other individual wannabe buyers.
I agree with them re drug cooks.
As to all other individuals, there's nothing in it for S-A. No upside, and a huge potential downside risk. It's simply good business to behave as they
do. Read the CMCA. The government has drafted all "lab suppliers into being snitches (willing or not) and unpaid clerks, and holds s mighty Damoclean
sword over their heads if they are bad unpaid clerks.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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pip
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I definately did not misrepresent myself. When I first e-mailed them about the sodium formate they called me back and asked me who I am and why I
wanted it. I told them the truth, I am an hobbyist who works at a auto shop so i can get catalytic converters legally and cheap and wanted to find out
the yields because I was thinking of making this a side business. And that as a hobbyist I wanted to know if they would sell to me other things as
long as their ok for a individual to own. Never did get a direct answer on that.
The package came in a box with a hole for a post card with my address to be seen. The post card is made out with my name on the first line
"researcher" on the second and "purchasing" on the third with my address below
Oh and the post card is for free magazines:
Aldrichimica Acta
Chemfiles
Material Matters
Btw I have no use for drug related chemicals.
"Do you think getting permission to order a chemical will only be given to you on a case-by-case basis, or do you now have a regular account
and are able to order in general? "
I'm not sure I'll let you know after the first try to buy somthing but that won't be until after tax time.
"And yes I believe they run all buyers past the DEA"
Could that mean the dea has approved me as "harmless" unless I try to order somthing ignorent.
[Edited on 2-1-2009 by pip]
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Swede
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I have found truthfulness pays big dividends. I am not making drugs or bombs; I am researching"new and unique methods of electrochemical anode
construction, using valve metals and mixed metal-oxide catalysts. I am an individual, entrepreneur, and researcher. I hope one day to discover a
patentable and marketable process ro product."
This sort of thing , they can relate to. The only real disappointment has been Cole-Palmer. I had a bit of an email war with someone there. I asked
them "So you are saying if I ordered SALT, sodium chloride, you'd deny the order?" "Yup." "Why?"
"Because of liability." Translation: We dislike entrepreneurs, and don't care about your $100 order. We really want 5-figure orders from large
institutions." Screw them.
Seriously, be honest, mature, and tell them your goal is research. ALL research starts small. Some guy trying a new process doesn't order a ton of
Ammonium Perchlorate, he orders 500g. Build a RELATIONSHIP with a good company.
Also, don't be a dumb ass and try ordering KCN, white or red P, Iodine, or some other highly dangerous or suspicious product. Maybe LATER, but only
after you've gained some trust.
Consider starting a corporation. It can be done online in a few days for minimal $$.
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garage chemist
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Why would anyone buy sodium formate?
It is hugely cheaper and easier to buy formic acid and use this as the reductor. Neutralise with Na2CO3 if the pH is critical for the reduction.
Such simple salts of cheap acids are things that I would never buy. It's truly a waste of money.
And I refine precious metals myself. I deal with dental gold alloys from which I extract Pt and Pd. I do not use chemical reductors to convert salts
to metals, I use thermal decomposition of the salts.
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undead_alchemist
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My own company tried to apply for an account with SA but was denied.
That was SA Canada too.
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pip
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So Garage Chemist how would you seperate an unknown amount of platinum, palladium and rhodium from a aqua regia solution possibly containing iron
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garage chemist
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Evaporate with HCl repeatedly to remove nitric acid and nitric oxides from the solution, then dilute with water and add ammonium chloride solution. Pt
precipitates as NH4 hexachloroplatinate (yellow). Filter.
Bubble in chlorine. Pd precipitates as NH4 hexachloropalladate (red). This can be dissolved in warm NH3 solution, filtered and reprecipitated with HCl
as yellow PdCl2(NH3)2 for purification.
All those Pd and Pt salts can be made into metals by slow heating to red heat in a test tube. NH4Cl sublimates, this must be white, otherwise you
heated too fast and the evolving gases carried some metal dust with them.
That's how I do it. I don't know about rhodium, I do not isolate this- the quantities in dental alloys are not worth isolating, even when you consider
the high price of rhodium.
[Edited on 4-1-2009 by garage chemist]
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pip
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Garage Chemist
Thanks, I was concerned with the rhodium alot but now it is "only" worth 1200 per oz I'm not as concerned with the 2 grams that in theory should be
there. Although Buying rhodium seems next to impossible.
Swede
Thanks I should start a business doing the platinum thing because for me catalytic converters are very easy to get ahold of where I live. Also I have
had alot of people ask me what that jar of liquid on my desk is and whenever I tell them they allways give me the same question "can you platinum
plate my ****.
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | Originally posted by pip
Whenever I tell them they allways give me the same question "can you platinum plate my ****. |
And I bet the men were just as bad; did you tell them their respective organs, platinum-plated, would be "hot stuff"?
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MagicJigPipe
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can you platinum plate my ****. |
I'm almost sure this is a joke, but I still need to ask (because people's ignorance/stupidity knows no bounds).
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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hissingnoise
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Come on, Magic, it's just comedic reference; where's your sense of humour?
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DJF90
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@MagicJigPipe - I think pip was originally implying that the ladies wanted their jewellry platinum plated, using **** as a space for a misc. item.
@pip - Wikipedia seems to have a method for separating rhodium from the other precious metals and other metals that might be present.
[Edited on 6-1-2009 by DJF90]
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pip
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DJF90, yah the **** was just a general item. suprisingly no ladies even cared about it. All the questions came from guys. Can you turn my silver
neckless into a platinum one? Make my shifter (car) platinum plated, and my favorite why is your platinum yellow, everyone knows platinum is a metal
not a liquid your a dumb ass. (I have no chemistry friends)
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Sauron
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Can we cut the crap about platinum plating please?
It's OT and derailing the thread.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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pantone159
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| Quote: | Originally posted by pip
"Do you think getting permission to order a chemical will only be given to you on a case-by-case basis, or do you now have a regular account
and are able to order in general? "
I'm not sure I'll let you know after the first try to buy somthing but that won't be until after tax time.
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This may be paranoia, but if Sigma-Aldrich is really saying they will sell you anything as a private individual, I'd be worried you are being set up.
As in S-A has decided you are suspicious and will point you out to LE but pretend to be ready to do business.
This is based on what I have heard that it is very very difficult to do business with them as a private individual in the USA. I have never tried
(but they did send me a free catalog, which is a nice reference, thanks S-A!) but I have always heard they are hard to get approved with.
I'd look for formate elsewhere.
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Sauron
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Setting him up for buying sodium formate? Unrestricted, non-listed, unscheduled salt of formic acid?
You are right. It IS paranoia.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Paddywhacker
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If you guys are not into the illegal stuff then have you considered registering your own company. Make it a non-trading company so that you don't
have to fill out tax forms.
Here in NZ it can be done online for about $60. It is no end of help in getting respectful attention from suppliers, although Sigma-Aldridge are
probably not in that class.
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