Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Acetone Peroxide as a Detonator

Backyard Blaster - 4-10-2003 at 10:30

I have a question regarding the use of AP in homemade detonators (blasting caps). I'll try to describe my problem as best as I can.
I've had a couple years experience using AP, and although I've found it relatively safe, it doesn't seem to have much blasting ability by itself. Sure it makes a big bang, and a few grams can blow your fingers off, but it just doesn't seem to have the ability to move much mass. I refer to such uses as stump & rock blasting, felling trees, and blowing up old appliances (microwave ovens, console stereos, etc). Take for example, an old microwave oven. 10-20 grams of BP, inside a piece of copper pipe, is enough to blow apart a large microwave. But take the same amount of AP, packed in a paper tube, and it might only blow the door off the unit. However, I have had better luck with it in other situations. One test, was on a couple of 2' long pieces of wooden railroad ties (about 1 square foot in diameter). A 6" hole was drilled in the center of each, one had a paper charge of AP and the other had an equal-sized paper charge of BP. The block with the BP made only a loud "boom", similar to a shotgun blast. The block with the AP made a loud crack, and split the block cleanly in half.
Not wanting to give up on AP, I decided to try making a detonator with it. I used a 2" long piece of a TV antenna - about 1/4" in diamater and 1/64" thick. One end was sealed with epoxy, then I packed the AP, inserted an electric ignitor, and sealed the other end shut. For the secondary charge, I used about 10 grams of Pyrodex (a black power substitute) in a thick paper tube. I've been told that Pyrodex will detonate if a sufficient shockwave is applied. With the detonator in the pyrodex charge, I placed the rig on a piece of plywood and placed a large cardboard box over it. My theory being, that if the pyrodex detonated, it should produce a shockwave sufficient to rip the cardboard box into confetti. When detonated, it made a loud crack but clearly did not detonate the pyrodex. Instead, the pyrodex was blasted into a fine dust, which covered the inside of the box and the plywood. Testing confirmed that it was not burned, and hence, the experiment was considered a failure.
The AP I used was the dimer type (made with HCl). The only H2SO4 I can get (sold as drain opener) has a red color and I presume this is an additive, which I fear may have an adverse effect on the chemical reaction. As for other explosives such as NG, I'd rather stay away from anything that requires HNO3 to make - too dangerous, even for my taste.
What do you think went wrong? One theory, is that I should have used a second charge of AP as a booster, to initiate the Pyrodex. This is rather cumbersome, and I'd much rather use a two-stage system instead. Or perhaps the Pyrodex cannot be detonated at all. I'm considering trying another secondary explosive, such as AN + kerosene or an improvised plastic explosive. I've seen the recipe for one such type, composed of potassium chlorate + wax + petroleum jelly, however I'm not sure how credible the info actually is.
This is my first post, and I must say it's nice to find a place where such topics can be openly discussed with knowledgeable people. I personally would rather receive training and get a valid blasters license, however financial and health problems (not to mention tough local laws - 5000 hrs training required for a full license, for example) make this impossible at the present time.
Thanks for any advice.

Nevermore - 4-10-2003 at 13:46

well, to know if your AP is dimeric or trimeric just say what was the liquid temp when you performed the syntesis, since the dimer form is common at high temperatures, and the trimer at lower temp, however is always better to perform the reaction at low temp in order to get better product. Hcl or H2so4 doesn't change much, only with h2so4 i usually get better yeld and faster reaction.
i do not know really if pyrodex can be detonated, anyway Ap is capable of detonating many things but usually not ANFO, so, An + ker will be rather hard to detonate, the cheddite one (clorate) should be easier to detonate, but i won't trust too much the clorates and perclorates..
NG is 10 times more safer than Ap, it can be hard to make, compared to ap but you bet that the results are better and IT IS more safe than Ap. There are lotsa things safer than Ng too, Ap is nice, but a lil toooo sensitive..

Backyard Blaster - 4-10-2003 at 15:32

I wasn't aware that trimeric AP could be formed with HCL. As for the temperature, I believe it was somewhere between 10-20 degress Celcius, though I don't have a thermometer to measure. It seems that at room temperature or higher, the crystals will not form at all. The batches that were most productive, were made in the winter when I stored the HCl in an unheated building, where the temperature was a typical -10 (you probably know that HCl doesn't freeze, at least not at this temp). The most recent batch, I cooled with ice and water. One other detail; I concentrate the H2O2 (the cheap 3% stuff) by boiling, I'm not sure if this would have any effect or not. The product left over after boiling, is pure enough to bleach skin to a white color (this is actually how I test it).
To produce something like NG, I would need some supplies that are hard to find. I do not know of a source for KNO3 here in Canada, and homemade KNO3 requires a lot of work! Then there's the H2SO4; the kind I mentioned in my original post (with the red coloring). Whether this would be useful for such a purpose, I don't know. Producing the HNO3 sounds like a rather dangerous process, given the NO2 fumes, explosion hazards, etc. The processes for making NG or any similiar explosive, aren't any safer. I'm also told that NG will give you killer headaches, something which I certainly don't need.
It seems that whether you want to get a license and buy explosives legally, or do it entirely on your own, you'll have some major challenges to overcome. At least in Canada anyway.
I will do some research on the viability of making my own HNO3. I've heard that KNO3 can be purchased as a fertilizer with the number 14-0-45, is this true? Also, would the red additive in that H2SO4 be a problem when using it for this purpose?
BTW I'm well aware of the hazards of AP, and I've always handled it with the utmost caution. I can't believe NG is actually safer, especially after all the horror stories I've read. For a good example, check out the following link. Some very interesting, albeit horrific, stories here to read. http://www.logwell.com/tales/menu/index.html
Thanks for the advice.

Microtek - 5-10-2003 at 02:55

Take a look at the topic posted by andrea, who is apparantly also in Canada. It is about making and using NG and you will see that, provided you know how to do a simple nitration, producing it is not particularly hazardous. NOx is only evolved if you add glycerine too quickly or don't pay attention to the temperature.
When I first made it years ago, I only had experience with peroxides so I was also extremely careful with it. I made a little reservoir out of blu-tack and filled it with NG. Then I filled a small plastic tube ( 3 mm diameter ) with pressed AP and put it into the resevoir.
Using a slow fuse, I initiated the AP.... But the NG didn't detonate. I didn't ignite either and I was thinking that maybe it wasn't NG after all. But it was.
I have made it many times since, mostly for use in composites or rocket propellant, and I can tell you that headaches because of vasodilation is only a problem if you get large amounts on your skin, or if you breathe VERY deeply of the vapours ( the vapour pressure is very low, so you really have to make an effort to breathe enough of them ).

Nevermore - 5-10-2003 at 05:52

Quote:
Originally posted by Backyard Blaster
I wasn't aware that trimeric AP could be formed with HCL. As for the temperature, I believe it was somewhere between 10-20 degress Celcius, though I don't have a thermometer to measure. It seems that at room temperature or higher, the crystals will not form at all.

One other detail; I concentrate the H2O2 (the cheap 3% stuff) by boiling, I'm not sure if this would have any effect or not. The product left over after boiling, is pure enough to bleach skin to a white color (this is actually how I test it).
.


Well Trimeric or Dimeric Ap depends only on the temperature, every batch is always a mixture of both, the lower the temp the more trimeric, the higher the temp the more dimeric...Since dimeric is more sensitive and less powerful we would perform the reaction at low temp in order to get a better product. Is a good way to cool the batch with ice, and is even better to use pre cooled ingredients. Temperature monitor doesn't have much importance as long as not using concentrated sulfuric and adding everything slowly.

You can't concentrate good the H2o2 by boiling, since boiling will break the molecule of H2O2 so leaving you with normal water and O2. Better to let it simmer for long time over an hot plate, 70-90C shouldn't be passed for a good result, anyway, try to use hair H202 should be much more concentrated and cheap.

Hno3 is hard to get over here too, better to go on with nitrating mixture made by a XNO3 and H2SO4, KNO3, NaNO3, NH4NO3, could be used for nitration withouth great problems than a little reduced yeld.

Backyard Blaster - 5-10-2003 at 10:20

I've done a bit more research on the topic of home distillation of HNO3, the most informative page I found was here:
http://www.geocities.com/brainfevert/hno3.html
It seems to suggest that better results were had using KNO3, rather than NH4NO3. It seems that the latter is easier to obtain, at least in my area. Is it possible to produce decent HNO3, using NH4NO3 AND that red-tinted H2SO4 I mentioned earlier? If so, I might just give it a try.

Nevermore - 5-10-2003 at 11:46

It is possible, but you will have to distill it out..
you could use some calcium nitrate, that will give you Hno3 and a solid precipitate of calcium sulfate, should be easier to separate...

Backyard Blaster - 5-10-2003 at 15:21

Do you mean distill the HNO3 itself, or distill out the impurities? I still have some learning to do on this subject. Also, what are some sources for calcium nitrate?

Nevermore - 5-10-2003 at 15:25

Distill Hno3, fortunately it boils at 80C...
Calcium nitrate is a fertilizer, anyway nitrating mix with anydrous Nh4No3 and Concentrated H2SO4 works perfectly.

Chemical Peach - 6-10-2003 at 12:14

On the subject of forming nitric with calcium nitrate, i belive this to be much harder to separate than you may think. Some have tried this before and have not been able to get the precipitate out of suspention. Although, maybe if you have access to a high speed centrifuge.....;)

chemoleo - 6-10-2003 at 19:22

yepp, or a vacuum pump...
I seem to recall that someone proposed this before, so have a look at threads as to the production of HNO3 via the Ca(NO3)2 route...

vulture - 23-10-2003 at 06:01

Like Polverone mentioned in another thread, this forum is for discussing exotic or in an other way unorthodox methods of preparing energetic compounds and the chemistry behind it.

This is just another thread about detonators, which going considerably off-topic too.

We're NOT an explosives and weapons forum.

Topic closed.