Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Glassware in Texas - Register or Not?

Kilartheli - 16-9-2007 at 18:11

Hello all!

I would like to acquire a fairly large/advanced set of glassware (for organic chemistry) from a supplier on ebay. I'll probably have around 50-75 pieces when it's all said and done with. With that being said I can state my issue, and questions.

First, I know Texas has a glassware registration law, and I find this to be absolutely insane and utterly stupid beyond all reason!

1. Should I register my glassware?

2. What happens if I don't register my glassware, and I get a visit from the local gestapo? Will they confiscate it and charge me with some unheard of crime?

3. I'm a student of all science, and I have no intention of doing anything illegal with my glassware. With this being said, should I still worry if I don't register my glassware?

4. I read in a post after I searched the forum that Texas has it's own set of "LIST 1" chemicals. I searched google, but I couldn't find anything. Can somebody provide me with a link to said list, or perhaps state them here?

5. I plan on practicing organic synthesis and so sooner or later, and I will have to acquire many reagents that may raise flags. I'll be staying away from all the DEA list 1 chemicals, but will my actions (buying glassware, and chemicals for org syn) still raise red flags?

I know I may come off as sounding paranoid, but Texas is one of the worst places around for practicing chemistry, especially organic chemistry. Of course, the more meth labs that are put out of commission is always good, but at the same time they hurt scientists with crazy laws and restrictions.

Either way, I do not want to hear this answer "move out of Texas" because at the moment this is absolutely impossible.

Ozone - 16-9-2007 at 20:21

This is just my $0.02 worth: I would keep a low profile and do what I wish. You are an amateur scientist, not a sex offender (who, so far as I know, are the only "free" citizens that are required to "register" for anything except firearms). I would be discrete, I would not advertise and I would have a damn good (possibly true:D) story that I would have in the event that I am discovered.

I might also have a corporation and (probably more important) some very good friends (preferably in places higher than you).

Be extra-nice to the people you meet. You never know.

Cheers,

O3

joeflsts - 17-9-2007 at 03:21

Something I find interesting about Texas glassware laws is that Erlenmeyer Flasks are not allowed and yet Fry's sells them in their stores.

I think the law looks good on paper and are handy when it comes time to put a meth cook away for a long time.


Joe

YT2095 - 17-9-2007 at 03:41

Personally I would declare it and register them if that`s the Law.

since Ignorance of law is no defence, you can never use that, and since your intentions are Honest it`s best to keep your ass covered.

but that`s just My opinion, I`m sure plenty here will disagree with me.

mrjeffy321 - 17-9-2007 at 06:42

One should obey just laws.

You may want to read some of the actual wording of the law yourself, there you will find lists of chemicals and glassware which come under regulation, as well as requirements and penalties,
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/HS/content/pdf/hs....

[Edited on 9-17-2007 by mrjeffy321]

YT2095 - 17-9-2007 at 07:25

it Is best to go legal IMO.

and all being well it shouldn`t cost you anything to simply register these glass articles, if it does, then trust me, I feel your pain!

small scale Pyro WAS (yes past tense) a interest of mine, I like making different color formulas and making them into Fountains (Gerbs) as well as Catherine Wheels(pinwheels) and sometime I may do a small rocket or 2.

I have to save up a good amount of cash now (about 500 GBP) to get my Cat4 (UN code 1.4) MSER License before I can even consider doing this again legally.

which to Me seems crazy because even that (probably the lowest grade Licence) entitles me to make 10,000 (yes TEN THOUSAND) times more than I ever want to make or even made anyway!

until then I`m allowed to make up to 100g of a Cat 4 mix in a lab and light it on a plate (like school demos). now that`s great for the most part and I`m happy with it, BUT I can no longer make a fountain for my garden or even a Sparkler!

on a brighter note, the renewal is less than half the initial cost for each year after that.

so you`re Not on your own!

Mr. Wizard - 17-9-2007 at 10:07

So you are planning to do something illegal, you give your location and then ask for help conspiring to break the law. Well duh-uh. Isn't Waco in Texas ?
All on your first post; Good job. I see you got a few bites too.

Obey the law, or go somewhere where you can obey the law, or lobby for a law change. Stop asking advice on how to break the law, and asking other people to help you do it. That's my two cents worth.

BTW I think the law regarding registering glassware is stupid too, but that's not the issue here.

Maya - 17-9-2007 at 14:08

might as well do it and when they come to inspect they will find nothing wrong and be tired of knocking on your door so that means they won't come again

[Edited on 17-9-2007 by Maya]

Ozone - 17-9-2007 at 21:13

Things are becoming pretty "sheisty" here. I still stand by anonymity *unless* the quantities are large. A few grams (unless it's *really* special) is usually of little interest. A couple of kg...might get some attention.

The conundrum, however, is the thought that when "they" visit your house (buy a new door...) your registration will tell them that your stuff is OK (and hopefully, they will leave, without destruction, confiscation or captivity); my question is, would visitation become more likely b/c of registration?

My prognostication is "probably...yes".

I think that "they" will always take the easy mark first. That keeps the stats high and the casualties low.

"The bigger the bust, the bigger the boost" --Sgt. Stedenko (sic?)

Cheers,

O3

Twospoons - 17-9-2007 at 22:12

On the other hand, someone who is upfront and registers, all nice and legal, is (I would have thought) unlikely to be doing anything illicit. The authorities are going to look rather stupid if all their 'stats' are false alarms with no convictions.
I vote you stay above board, and register like you are supposed to, so there is no basis for charges against you.
Better still, why not sound out the local authorites BEFORE buying any glassware. Surely they can't nab you for asking?

Sauron - 17-9-2007 at 22:55

I agree with Twospoons. If you have nothing to hide, never act as if you do.

pantone159 - 18-9-2007 at 07:24

The Texas law requires individuals to register BEFORE buying listed glassware, and to re-request permits for each and every piece of equipment you want, and you have to wait for the permit (which might be denied) before acquiring said equipment.

I think you specifically consent to an inspection when applying.

Listed equipment includes 'adaptor tube' and 'transformer', btw.

The chemical list is approximately DEA List I, don't remember the specifics offhand. Not nearly as much of an issue as the equipment.

I think there is a link to the actual law somewhere on this site. EDIT - It is posted earlier in this thread by mrjeffy321.

Are there any members in TX who have actually applied for permits?

Personally, I am mainly interested in inorganic color change kind of stuff, and beakers and test tubes (which aren't listed) mostly suffice for that, so I can stay legal, albeit irritated.

[Edited on 18-9-2007 by pantone159]

geezmeister - 18-9-2007 at 14:05

My comments are made from the perspective of a defense lawyer with thirty years experience in criminal defense in the United States.

Texas has some very unreasonable laws, the chemical apparatus laws being among them.

Texas also has a high rate of convictions in criminal cases and is the nation's leading executioner.

You have chosen to live in Texas, which is your fault.

That said:

If you are not a business but wish to possess glassware (and the list is so basic most anything you will use is included) you must register. You must provide you driver's license, description and registration of your vehicle, you address, and a description of how the apparatus is to be used. You must report any loss or theft of glassware within three days (I assume breakage is included in "loss") and must consent to a search of the premises where the glassware is to be used or stored. This inspection need not be by warrant, but is done administratively. That is not to say that inspections may be done on a random basis, or done arbitrarily or on the whim of the authorities.

As to the right to inspect: The usual restrictions under American jurisprudence regarding administrative inspections and searches would apply to the home of the registrant; the limitation on authorities is less than a probable cause standard, but more than a mere suspicion standard, and administrative inspections must be based on standards or schedules adopted by the administrative level officials who are amenable to the public by way of election or appointment by elected officials rather than by the field officers themselves. In summary, you are waiving a search warrant requirement for a search of your home or wherever you keep the glassware; you are not necessarily submitting to arbitrary or unreasonable searches by agreeing to allow inspection. You can expect to be inspected, but you may also expect the inspections to follow some form of schedule.

Possession of glassware by one without a permit falls under the penalty provisions for possession of paraphernalia. That is a misdemeanor in Texas. The glassware is also subject to forfeiture. It is a third degree felony to distribute a chemical apparatus without compliance with the act. So you commit a felony if you sell some of your glassware in state.

You must register and have a permit to receive glass from another state in Texas.

If you are sincere in your statement that you will not be doing drug chemistry, and are interested only in organic synthesis, you should comply with the law, register, obtain a permit, and not have to worry about your activity being detected.

If you fail or refuse to register, you have violated the law. Any conviction of that nature will put a serious crimp in any future plans you have for employment in legitimate industry, academia, or government. Your glassware will be subject to forfeiture, and the gestapo will likely confiscate all you chemicals as well being certain you are a clandestine drug chemist... remember... not many cops have an education beyond an a.b. degree ( two year) if they have that much education. They have no idea what you have or what it is for... and it is not likely that the first wave of door busters will have someone with a chemistry education along to inform them they are overreacting.

If you have any designs or plans to use the apparatus for any illegal purposes, whether drug related or not, you are best advised to move elsewhere.

The Texas law on chemistry apparatus is designed to intimidate would be drug makers and prevent them from acquiring glassware. It is also designed to facilitate the seizure of such glassware and provides an assumption for officers that anyone who had glassware without a proper permit or registration has no legitimate reason for having it. It allows the forfeiture of the glassware regardless of whether it has ever been used for an illegal purpose.

From a practical standpoint, if you have no illegal uses in mind, you should not fear having the permit or registering. Once the authorities realize you are legitimate, their interest in you will rapidly wane. It is far better to be legal should you have a lab accident which brings out the local fire department or causes calls by neighbors to 911.

Expect cops to be suspicious. Expect them to be confused by your registration and legitimate use. Expect to be rabid if you have not registered or obtained your permit.

Maya - 18-9-2007 at 18:19

I would capitulate, assuming U R not doing illegal activities and register every single one of your coffee pots and cleaner chemicals in your permit application along with any other glass and chemical no matter how mundane. its a pain but they will tire of you and leave you alone

Sauron - 18-9-2007 at 18:55

Here are your choices

1. Comply
2, Move out of state
3. Incorporate assuming businesses are exempt
4. Go "bare" and criminalize yourself, subjecting your glassware to forfeiture and acquiring a record as a vilator

I don't like this stupid nazi law any more than you do, but, I do not see how (4) is a viable option for any Texas resident.

Kilartheli - 18-9-2007 at 23:47

First of all, I wish to state that I really appreciate the replies I've received thus far.

Now to my replies, and unfortunately I will not be able to reply to everyone that's posted. With this said, I will reply to a few that merit immediate attention.
Quote:

You have chosen to live in Texas, which is your fault.


I was born here, and I didn't choose to live in this abyss.
Quote:

You may want to read some of the actual wording of the law yourself, there you will find lists of chemicals and glassware which come under regulation, as well as requirements and penalties...


I've read the law, but thank you very much.
Quote:

The Texas law requires individuals to register BEFORE buying listed glassware, and to re-request permits for each and every piece of equipment you want, and you have to wait for the permit (which might be denied) before acquiring said equipment.


This is very bothersome, very bothersome indeed. I'm in absolute dismay by this reply. I do thank you however, you've been very helpful. Most likely the most helpful out of all the replies I've received. Let me ask you a question since you live in Texas; how long does the process take to receive one permit?
Quote:

The chemical list is approximately DEA List I, don't remember the specifics offhand. Not nearly as much of an issue as the equipment.


I'm aware of the DEA List I chemicals, but I read in another thread on this board that Texas had a completely separate List I. I searched on Google, but couldn't find anything. So apparently what I read in that specific thread was wrong.
Quote:

Are there any members in TX who have actually applied for permits?


This is an interesting question. I would be very interested in hearing replies regarding other members applications for permits.
Quote:

I would capitulate, assuming U R not doing illegal activities and register every single one of your coffee pots and cleaner chemicals in your permit application along with any other glass and chemical no matter how mundane. its a pain but they will tire of you and leave you alone


You forget all the transformers in electronic equipment. ;)

Either way, apparently all TX citizens are breaking the law. I doubt they've registered their transformers or coffee pots...

Quote:

1. Comply
2, Move out of state
3. Incorporate assuming businesses are exempt
4. Go "bare" and criminalize yourself, subjecting your glassware to forfeiture and acquiring a record as a vilator


If I had to pick, I would pick number two. However, that is not a viable option. Most likely I'll go with three and incorporate. That seems to be the route with the least amount of headaches.

--------

Everyone except Mr. Wizard can stop reading here if you so desire.

Mr. Wizard, your reply was most bothersome, and I felt that it should be at the bottom of my post. I probably shouldn't have even replied to your post, but unfortunately my pride got the best of me.
Quote:

So you are planning to do something illegal, you give your location and then ask for help conspiring to break the law. Well duh-uh. Isn't Waco in Texas ?
All on your first post; Good job. I see you got a few bites too.


You may have more posts than I, but that's no reason to be an absolute bugger. Nor is it a reason to be arrogant and make snide remarks.

Quote:

Obey the law, or go somewhere where you can obey the law, or lobby for a law change. Stop asking advice on how to break the law, and asking other people to help you do it. That's my two cents worth.


I'm not asking for advice on how to break the law. I'm asking a series of simple questions which apparently you've been unable to fathom, or apparently you just don't care. If that's the case, not caring, you shouldn't have even replied to my thread!

Either way, your post was very unwelcomed. Hope you have a nice night - in hell that is! BAH!


EDIT: cleaned up BBCode.

[Edited on 18-9-2007 by Kilartheli]

[Edited on 18-9-2007 by Kilartheli]

Sauron - 19-9-2007 at 00:37

If I were in your shoes I would verify that businesses are exempted. Even if they are you may have problems relative to commercial vs residential zoning (depending on just how urban and busybodyish your locale may be.) You'll need a state business license, a county one and maybe a municipal one, registration for sales tax even though you won't be selling anything (assuming Tx has sales tax) and that will mean monthly filings regardless of no sales activity. Only good news there is that you can exempt yourself from Tx sales tax, by buying in corp name. You definitely will want to register with IRS as that gets you an all important EIN number (employers identification) and THAT makes a lot of difference with companies like Aldrich.

As to Tx chemical list, ask the Tx state police or Rangers. They ought to know.

woelen - 19-9-2007 at 01:30

If I really had to do what Sauron mentions, with all that paperwork, monthly filings, getting licenses from multiple authorities, then I would select another hobby :(. Sad that things have developed in this way, but apparently, doing home chemistry in a legal way in Texas is next to impossible, except maybe for the most simple things.

Sauron - 19-9-2007 at 01:56

Do you have friends or relatives in an adjacent state?

Is your locale urban or rural?

Are you smack dab in middle of Tx or reasonably close to a state line w/transportation of your own?

If answers to first and third questions are YES and to second question is RURAL, and particularly if you live alone (no roommate, gf, wife to rat you out) you might think about setting up a mail drop/shipping accomodation address out of state and then making a run back and forth every week or two (or when you know something is there to pick up). Not my recommendation, but, if circumstances are right then a possibility.

Bear in mind that while possesion of unregistered "paraphernalia" is a misdemeanor, unlawful importation into Tx is a felony so you will want to sanitize away all shipping labels, invoices, etc. that would be prima facia evidence that you just transported such glassware in from a contiguous state, you would want to be confident of the loyalty of your friends/relatives there and you would want to drive carefully on your way home.

I say again I am NOT advocating this as your plan, I am merely musing about a hypothetical. My advice is incorporate if that solves your problems and register is it does not. Incorporation may create more problems than it solves. The tangle of federal/Tx/county/municipal govt oversight is something I am just frigging delighted to have left behind two decades ago. In Thailand I have one just one govt to worry about and by and large they could give a rat's ass about any of this. Glass is just glass and chemicals with a few exceptions are just chemicals. The name of the country Prathet Thai in their own language means the Kingdom of the Free and they mean it. Remember when ours used to be the Land of the Free? Well, maybe you can't remember, as it hasn't really been true since Teddy Roosevelt's time.

[Edited on 19-9-2007 by Sauron]

pantone159 - 19-9-2007 at 07:23

The link that mrjeffy321 has the chemical list, it is:

(A)Methylamine;
(B)Ethylamine;
(C)D-lysergic acid;
(D)Ergotamine tartrate;
(E)Diethyl malonate;
(F)Malonic acid;
(G)Ethyl malonate;
(H)Barbituric acid;
(I)Piperidine;
(J)N-acetylanthranilic acid;
(K)Pyrrolidine;
(L)Phenylacetic acid;
(M)Anthranilic acid;
(N)Ephedrine;
(O)Pseudoephedrine;
(P)Norpseudoephedrine; or
(Q)Phenylpropanolamine.

I think these are all DEA List I except (K). Some List I substances are not on the Texas list. (E.g. benzaldehyde, nitroethane, even safrole!)

I have, however, seen (elsewhere on this board somewhere), a permit form that listed some additional chems, red phosphorus, I think.

There is some modified process for institutions, they don't have to request a permit for each individual purchase, I don't remember the details (you'll have to read the horrible legalese yourself), but it is much less burdensome than the one for individuals. I also don't know what you have to do to qualify for the institution/business permit.

MagicJigPipe - 2-10-2007 at 21:47

One other thing you must think about is a lot of states (I'm not sure about Texas but I would think so) have laws about combinations of certain chemicals whether they are listed or not. And there are even some federal (and state) laws that have nothing to do with drugs that are about safe handeling and using things "consistent with their labeling" (assuming you are using even one household chemical in your lab).

Let's say you are doing everything right and all your shit is registered, you signed your privacy away and then you get inspected. The person of authority that conducts this inspection knows nothing of chemistry, or drugs for that matter, thinks that there is nothing legitimate you could be doing and gets pissed (very likely). So he starts looking for stuff to take you down for. Let's say you have stuff to make NH3 with, elemental Na and acetone. Bam, against the law. Using your isopropanol for something other than what it says on the label.... JAIL.

My point is if they don't like the fact that you practice chemistry and they even THINK that you are synthesizing drugs or even explosives (that includes anything that can be considered explosive) then they can almost certainly get you for SOMETHING.

Whether or not it will fly in court is a question for a lawyer but you will almost certainly go to jail if you get the wrong cop.

So unless you are going to abide by all federal, state and local chemical regulations and safety/transportation/use laws then I would advise moving to a less NAZIish state or not registering and being extremely careful.

Unfortunatley, these fucking meth heads have started a witch hunt type atmosphere and it hurts many legitamite people. Although they aren't completely to blame, cops overreact because of ignorance, further hurting the situation.

[Edited on 2-10-2007 by MagicJigPipe]

[Edited on 2-10-2007 by MagicJigPipe]

Sauron - 2-10-2007 at 21:53

I see it's a safe bet you never went to law school.

Those are not LAWS.

And they have approximately the same penalties as removing that tag from your mattress.

<Snore>

Sauron - 2-10-2007 at 21:56

@pantone, let me rearrange that list to group the chemicals together by product they are precursors to.



Group 1

(A)Methylamine;
(L)Phenylacetic acid;
(N)Ephedrine;
(O)Pseudoephedrine;
(P)Norpseudoephedrine; or
(Q)Phenylpropanolamine

Group 2

(B)Ethylamine;
(C)D-lysergic acid;
(D)Ergotamine tartrate;

Group 3

(E)Diethyl malonate;
(F)Malonic acid;
(G)Ethyl malonate;
(H)Barbituric acid;

Group 4

(I)Piperidine;


(J)N-acetylanthranilic acid;
(M)Anthranilic acid;

Misc

I really do not why this is on here.

(K)Pyrrolidine;
.
But in every other case the target compounds are obvious and need no elaboration. I doubt that they have seen an acid lab in a coon's age, and I also doubt that many cooks are after barbiturates or methaqualone these days. Note also that this list is far from comprehensive even if we are only talking about the obvious products. Where's the o-toluidine? Cyclohexanone? Bromobenzene?

Not a very scary list.


[Edited on 3-10-2007 by Sauron]

evil_lurker - 2-10-2007 at 22:45

Quote:
Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
One other thing you must think about is a lot of states (I'm not sure about Texas but I would think so) have laws about combinations of certain chemicals whether they are listed or not. And there are even some federal (and state) laws that have nothing to do with drugs that are about safe handeling and using things "consistent with their labeling" (assuming you are using even one household chemical in your lab).

Let's say you are doing everything right and all your shit is registered, you signed your privacy away and then you get inspected. The person of authority that conducts this inspection knows nothing of chemistry, or drugs for that matter, thinks that there is nothing legitimate you could be doing and gets pissed (very likely). So he starts looking for stuff to take you down for. Let's say you have stuff to make NH3 with, elemental Na and acetone. Bam, against the law. Using your isopropanol for something other than what it says on the label.... JAIL.

My point is if they don't like the fact that you practice chemistry and they even THINK that you are synthesizing drugs or even explosives (that includes anything that can be considered explosive) then they can almost certainly get you for SOMETHING.

Whether or not it will fly in court is a question for a lawyer but you will almost certainly go to jail if you get the wrong cop.

So unless you are going to abide by all federal, state and local chemical regulations and safety/transportation/use laws then I would advise moving to a less NAZIish state or not registering and being extremely careful.

Unfortunatley, these fucking meth heads have started a witch hunt type atmosphere and it hurts many legitamite people. Although they aren't completely to blame, cops overreact because of ignorance, further hurting the situation.

[Edited on 2-10-2007 by MagicJigPipe]

[Edited on 2-10-2007 by MagicJigPipe]


I totally agree.

Law enforcement in the USA is free to charge you with whatever they want due and with little to no recourse due to a little something the courts call "qualified immunity".

In fact, it is common practice to "stack" as many charges against a defendant stemming from one event as LE can dream up because it makes them look better (meaning they get more money diverted to their dept.) and a better chance of something actually "sticking".

Many times the DA will drop one or more of the charges when the Defendant goes to court because they know some of the charges will not stick, or that they will get stuck with more serious charges which makes the lesser charges meaningless since all time served is usually concurrent.

What sucks is that with all the charges bail is set higher (which the defendant if they go thru a bondsman loses 10-15% instantly and forever), and it costs much more to retain an attorney.

In the end, even if you somehow manage to beat the charges, the chance that you will recover anything expended in your defense is slim to none.

So basically, the moral of the story is if you get raided AT ALL one can expect money in the 5 digit range going *poof* never to be seen again... and thats in a best case scenario.

Fortunately though, most of the federal and state agencies don't work together... basically they are so big and bloated that the head doesn't know what the asshole is doing unless they are working on a big operation.

Sauron - 3-10-2007 at 04:20

There are NO laws that restrict how an individual may make use of a product he purchases, with a few provisos.

Laboratory chemicals may not be used for food, drug or cosmetic applications, this is not a law but a restriction placed by the manufacturer to exempt them from FDA control.

It has no force in law.

Similar statements on containers of household chemicals are likewise placed there by the manufacturers on advice of counsel to try to limit the liability of the manufacturer. This likewise has no force in law.

ANYTHING in United States federal law is published in the United States Code (USC) and if it is not there it is not US Law. There is also the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) which are regulations (not laws) promulgated by federal agencies under specific enabling legislation from Congress. Those enabling laws will be found in USC and will always be cited in CFR.

Anyone who says thus and so is US law, kindly cite the USC chapter and section, if you want credibility. Regulations are not laws but may be backed up by law. If it's a regulation cite the CFR.

The pulings and deemings of misbegotten corporate lawyers are not LAW. The proposition that the cops are going to do you for using your running alcohol for something other than massage, is puerile.

Rosco Bodine - 3-10-2007 at 06:46

Something my grandfather said to me when I was young still very much applies today ...the less that other people know about your business the better off you are .

And something a very good lawyer told me a long time ago also still very much applies today ....other than giving the police your license and registration during a traffic stop ,
you don't give the police the time of day without a lawyer ,
don't consent to anything and don't answer questions and don't file declarations or sign a damn thing , no matter how harmless it may seem because it is guaranteed not to be in your interest to do so . Police have a long history of making something out of nothing , and being given an inch will take a mile , and lead you down a path you don't want to go . They are not your "friend" so much as they are "enforcers" for a tyrannical state . Peace officers should keep the peace , and stirring up trouble where there isn't any doesn't fit that job description , but they do it regularly anyway ......and they will lie to anyone in a new york second as part and parcel of "investigative technique" . A stack of "arrest jackets" makes them look like they are "doing their job" , so that's what they want to be doing , "making cases" ....legitimate or not ......and it is up to the persons arrested to "tell it to the judge" who is often as corrupt as their "enforcers" who drag citizens before those magistrates in rat courts which rubber stamp
the cases they hear . Plea bargains are often bad faith ,
lying promises offered to secure guilty pleas from the innocent in exchange for "probation" which turns into an extortion and revolving door of BS "violation of probation"
arrests which turns any lessser offense into a life sentence ...where the "probationer" is on the hook for LIFE , and never able to "pay his debt to society" .

Have no illusions about it , when you are dealing with the police .....you ARE talking to the gestapo . Be very clear on that and govern yourself accordingly .

Sauron - 3-10-2007 at 18:30

Rosco says take the advise of his lawyer friend. I say the lawyers are to blame, the Bard was right, first thing we should do is kill all the lawyers.

Almost all politicians are lawyers. Who else to blame? Almost every legislator at every level is a lawyer. They write the laws that you object to. Evil_lurker says the cops stack up extra charges, but it's actually the assistant DAs who do that and not the cops at all, though they are part of the process. And 100% of the DAs are lawyers.

The lawyers have fucked up the country since approximately 1776.

[Edited on 4-10-2007 by Sauron]

Rosco Bodine - 3-10-2007 at 22:35

I just laid it right square on the line , and am sure it won't sit well with some folks having it stated just that matter of factly , since they may be more comfortable with a theory
about how different it is or ideally should be ....in spite of the way it really is , since that simpler truth is so unsettling in its implications . There's a few things in life about which I am 100% certain , and what I said is sure one of them proved out by a lifetime of experience and observation and absolutely good first hand information .
You think about all the corruption there is in government at all levels and just remember it is at *all* levels and you will get the true picture . What might pass for cynicism on my part is hard bought experience . But ignorance is bliss , so everyone go on and believe whatever you will until reality comes to call , and then remember I told you so .

MagicJigPipe - 5-10-2007 at 02:04

Sauron. It is a violation of many state laws to use a product "inconsistent with it's labeling". And regardless of how significant this charge is (tearing the tag off your mattress is not illegal if you are a consumer) if the LE agency that sees this doesn't like you for any reason, you will almost certainly go to jail.

I have a perfect example. I was staying with a roommate at an apartment complex. At this time I was not very interested in chemistry and had just a dozen pieces of glassware or so in a box in my room (along with maybe 2 unlabeled chemicals). My roommate moved out and I was in the process of doing so. Somehow the cops were tipped off that I had some sort of lab (don't tell anyone you have an interest in chemistry) and they came to the door while I was moving stuff out. They found my chemistry stuff and HATED it. They starting saying stuff like "where's the meth" and they got extremely frustrated when their meth/MDMA tests came up negative (and subsequent tests neg for drugs/explosives). So after a few hours of going through all my packed up stuff, towing my car and breaking most of my glassware (they said it was an accident), they finally arrested me. And what for? Trespassing, because my roommate wasn't there to tell them that I was staying there legally. It ended up not sticking in court but it goes to show exactly what cops CAN do if they WANT TO. They will find any small thing. Even if it is a misdemeanor pertaining to unlawful use of a household product (they can try to say you were using your ether, toluene or tetrafluoroethane as an inhalant).

---Oh yeah, at one point they said I would be charged with "conspiracy to manufacture a destructive device" because of the glassware and my electronics kit that I happened to have an old thermostat in (mercury switches). But, thankfully, never did.

I WILL find the law in my state.

Here's this one to start out with about pesticides:

20-20-227. Penalties for use inconsistent with labeling.
(a) Any person who uses a pesticide in a manner inconsistent with its labeling is subject to the jurisdiction of the State Plant Board and its statutes, rules, and orders over which it has regulatory authority and may be subject to denial, suspension, revocation, or modification of a license or permit under § 20-20-214.

(b) Any person who knowingly uses a pesticide in a manner inconsistent with its labeling shall be guilty of a violation and upon conviction shall be punished by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars ($100) nor more than five hundred dollars ($500).

History. Acts 1995, No. 85, § 2; 1995, No. 110, § 2; 2005, No. 1994, § 119.

I will find more later but it's bedtime.

And thanks for the info Cpt. D!

[Edited on 10-6-2007 by Polverone]

YT2095 - 5-10-2007 at 02:47

one sec here lemme just try and put this into some sort of Perspective (For my own edification), if you DON`T register and get caught you WILL go to jail!

if you Do register and "meet the wrong cop" you MIGHT go to jail?

I think I`de still register to be honest.
I`ll take 50:50 over a 100% anyday!

and for the record I think the law in texas sucks ass Big time too, it`s pathetic!
but when in rome....


[Edited on 5-10-2007 by YT2095]

Rosco Bodine - 5-10-2007 at 08:59

The situation with the glassware law in Texas is a parallel with the gun registration laws in NYC , blatantly unconstitutional on its face . And in both cases it would seem clear enough that the only guarantee for protecting your privacy is to elevate it to secrecy , since the information which others don't have in the first place can't be exploited in any abuse of authority . If you really believe that registration is somehow covering your ass instead of bending over and spreading the KY jelly on it ....
well then go ahead and register .

You could tell them you are a diamond merchant and your chemistry set is for your hobby in crystallography . Yeah , that ought to do it .

undead_alchemist - 5-10-2007 at 09:00

Yes, Texas is not the best place for a lot of things, that I can say.
Some parts are so messed up that you even need a license just to buy alcohol,
and said license can only be had if you are a resident. So if your visiting, your out of luck...

MagicJigPipe - 5-10-2007 at 12:28

--- Remember, I am speaking in general terms, of course there are exceptions to every rule. ---

For me it would be about principle. I would not register because I believe that it is wrong and unconstitutional (in some ways) for them to do that.

And also, I believe that almost any cop without a 4 year degree in chemistry will end up being the "wrong cop". Unless, of course, they like people who synthesize drugs! Ha! The first thing they will see is your glassware and chemicals. They won't care if you registered or not. To them glassware + chemicals = meth lab. There is no other equation they can come up with. Most cops I know get angry at the very mention of a meth lab. Just imagine if they thought they saw one! Like I said, it is a witch hunt atmosphere which means that laws can be exageratted to put people in jail.

You would not imagine the things that were said to me while I was being interrogated about my supposed "meth lab" and what they threatened to get me to "hand over the meth".

This law is mostly stopping legitimate chemists from starting labs.

It's the same thing with guns and the laws being proposed that they need be registered (believe it or not you DO NOT have to register guns [except for machine guns, destructive devices and AOWs]... it is federal law that I don't feel like citing right now so if your curious just go online and read the 1934 National Firearms Act, the 1968 Gun Control Act, and the 1984 Firearm Owners Protection Act and you will see).

Only legitimate gun owners will be hurt. Criminals will not register their weapons. Duh!

Sauron - 6-10-2007 at 10:44

Magic, you pulled a single paragraph totally out of contest from the Arkansas State Plant Board's website

http://www.plantboard.org/pesticide_pdfs/lawsandregs/ch20.pd

That law applies to licensed pesticide applicatots - that is, agro-industry and contractors for them, such as crop dusters. It mandates proper use of pesticides in accordance with manufacturer instructions in the interest of public health and safety.

This has ZERO to do with household chemicals (pesticides or not) as household chemicals are not pesticides requiring a permit from the State Plant Board to use. They are exempted.

So stop trying to buffalo the forum with this sort of hogwash.

You simply do not know what you are talking about.



[Edited on 7-10-2007 by Sauron]

forgotten - 11-10-2007 at 20:50

I thought this was a joke at first, but I guess there is some truth to Texas law.. how incredibly stupid. I suggest you learn how to blow glass and make your own pieces. It would be much easier to move out of Texas though.

Sauron - 11-10-2007 at 20:56

Making your own glassware would still mean importing blank glassmaker's supplies and ground glass joints into Texas, not to mention a glass lathe, burners, special goggles, an annealing oven etc. And after all that if they catch you the penalties are same as having commercially made glassware.

No annealing oven means glassware that shatters in use from thermal stresses. Bad bad bad.

Your second suggestion (move out of state) is indeed more practical, but, unpalatable for many.

forgotten - 11-10-2007 at 22:46

Romo's 4 interceptions monday night would be reason enough to move out of Texas. Throw in the glassware laws.. you'd only be left with speed freaks and illegals lol!

J/k j/k Im sure Texas is a lovely state..

indigofuzzy - 2-11-2007 at 13:53

I know this was a while back, but:
Quote:

You have chosen to live in Texas, which is your fault.



Really? so if you're born in texas, and can't afford to move out this is a choice? NO.

fantoche - 28-11-2007 at 20:59

OK, I was considering buying one condenser to extract essential oils from plants.

From what I read in the law, I only need to register if I want to use specofic substances. Am I right, do I need to register??? :o

MagicJigPipe - 28-11-2007 at 21:34

I thought it was common knowledge that if law enforcement wants someone bad enough, they will find something to pin on them. Like a no dog leash law or something. (that actually happened to someone I know. She was arrested, her 3 children taken away and sent to jail for 3 weeks before going to court because she failed to pay a fine for having a dog in her front yard without a leash) Just be careful everyone. And fantoche, only you can decide what you SHOULD do (everyone has different principles) but I think the law is if you have glassware it must be registered in Texas.