Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Stupid laws in the European Union.

Stupid laws in the European Union.

nagyepf - 3-9-2018 at 03:37

If there are any veteran chemists can you tell me was chemistry easier before your country joined the EU?
For example nowadays potassium perchlorate,nitric acid,hydrogen peroxide,concentrated sulfuric acid,chromartes,dichromates are pretty hard to get.Not because they are expensive but because dumb laws written by dumb politicians.
Back in the old times when I was 6 years old i could buy potassium permanganate in drug storers.

mackolol - 3-9-2018 at 08:59

In Poland you can easily buy sulfuric acid and potassium permanganate (in drug store or from chem supplier), chromates are also available. Hydrogen peroxide is available if you sign the certificate that you won't make explosives (and since almost every chemistry school show uses a lot of h2o2 they don't even check it) i bought a bottle of h2o2 and my supplier told me that if the home made bomb will explode they will check me. And although it does not even happen few days later someone blew up cash machine (but they didn't check me). Potassium chlorate was available 2 years ago i started my chemistry with this compound (i was making firecrackers) but now they only sell NaClO3 40% mixed with sand and it's much more expensive. And the HNO3 is quite hard to get if you dont have economic activity. It's illegal to buy in concentration over 10% for normal person.

ELRIC - 3-9-2018 at 09:08

I think there are dumb laws in every country. Here in the USA, you better not get caught with elemental iodine for instance. Or phosphorus as well. But in Germany I heard you can buy P by the kilos. Restrictions are everywhere I think

nagyepf - 3-9-2018 at 09:51

Quote: Originally posted by ELRIC

I think there are dumb laws in every country. Here in the USA, you better not get caught with elemental iodine for instance. Or phosphorus as well. But in Germany I heard you can buy P by the kilos. Restrictions are everywhere I think

Yes but in USA for example you can legally make nitroglycerin.Cody'sLab actually did it a few times.

unionised - 3-9-2018 at 09:53

Most of the serious UK restraints on chemical purchase are more to do with the current government's "security theatre" and "war on drugs" than the EU

woelen - 3-9-2018 at 10:18

Ammonium perchlorate and perchloric acid still are available in the EU with some effort. Much more expensive than KClO4 and NaClO4 were, but for small scale experiments they are useful. NH4ClO4 itself only is marginally useful in the form of big lumps of coarse crystals, but you can easily make KClO4 from that for small-scale pyro-demos.
Chlorates you can make yourself in small quantitites (electrolysis of a solution of KCl, using MMO anodes).
Hydrogen peroxide still is available at concentrations of 12% or lower. With some freezing out you can make 20% H2O2 from this fairly easily. Going to higher concentrations is more difficult, unless you have a very very cold freezer.
Nitric acid you also can make yourself from H2SO4 and NaNO3 or KNO3, which both still are available. You, however, need an all-glass distillation setup. Using this, you can easily make small quantities (tens of ml, maybe 100 ml) of highly concentrated HNO3. Enough for small-scale experimenting, not enough for making large amounts of explosives.

Diachrynic - 3-9-2018 at 10:37

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

NaNO3 or KNO3, which both still are available.

Again, that depends. In Germany for example finding nitrates of any kind is a though job. Most fertilizers that contain useable amounts are very restricted, and the ones that aren't have low amounts (in the range of 10% and lower).

Chlorates on the other hand are no problem whatsoever. You don't even need MMO, graphite is sufficient. Spending maybe 10€ on a graphite electrode can last you for more that 700 grams of chlorate.

mackolol - 3-9-2018 at 10:58

In Poland Iodine and Red Phosphorus can be easily obtained and are legal even benzaldehyde p fluoro benzaldehyde and lab grade tryptophane. I have also seen ethylvanillin (for me looks like exactly for demethylation because what different could one make with ethyl vanillin)

nagyepf - 3-9-2018 at 11:40

Quote: Originally posted by Diachrynic

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

NaNO3 or KNO3, which both still are available.

What if you travel to other European country,buy the fertilizer and travel back to Germany?I know that amateur chem is a hard job there,wikipedia says:
German amateur chemists have been raided by the police, despite not being in the possession of illegal chemicals.[18][19]

[Edited on 02-09-2017 by nagyepf]

[Edited on 02-09-2017 by nagyepf]

Diachrynic - 3-9-2018 at 11:59

Quote: Originally posted by nagyepf

Quote: Originally posted by Diachrynic

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

NaNO3 or KNO3, which both still are available.

Thanks for that quote. Such things make me sick - I'm so glad these articles (18, 19) are from ten years ago, I don't know how much has changed.

Traveling for chems is not without risk and probably easier said than done, and for me not an option yet. I might resort to it at a later point in time though - who knows.

CobaltChloride - 3-9-2018 at 12:09

Here in Romania, there are only 2 laws that I despise. Firstly, there is the one that bans the sale of hydrogen peroxide above 12%. The rest of the chemicals in that law that I can use can also be manufactured easily (HNO3, chlorates) and perchlorates aren't interesting to me because I'm not into pyrotechnics. The second one outlaws the sale of potassium permanganate and possession is limited to 50g. I'm still not sure whether it would be legal to import 50g of KMnO4 from Poland, but if that works out, then I'll be able to use this chemical.

Otherwise, I can buy almost everything I want. It isn't that easy to get HCl in pure form (only source I found are Italian shops which sell colorless 32% imported from Italy), but acetone, H2SO4 (concentrated and dilute; the concentrated form from Cleamen is pure 98% H2SO4), hydrocarbons, nitrates (slightly impure NH4NO3 is the cheapest source. It can be readily purified by recrystallization) are easy to get.

The only things I can't find OTC here, even though they aren't outlawed, are metallic oxides. All I found were iron oxides and Cr2O3. Also, nitrites are very hard to get for some unknown reason.

All other speciality chemicals can be bought online.

[Edited on 3-9-2018 by CobaltChloride]

Ubya - 4-9-2018 at 02:04

here in italy i can quite easily buy 32% hydrochloric acid without additives and 98% sulphuric acid (sometimes clear sometimes not) in brico shops, pure acetone is used as a solvent and can be bought everywhere, but i can't find any other solvent in pure form or at least easily separated, paint removers or thinners have toluene, but is always mixed with heavy naphta, methanol, methyl acetate, acetone, etc, a nightmare to separate. oh and here is impossible to find methanol because many years ago they used it in cheap wine to make it more alcoholic, people died or became blind, so methanol was banned from public shops (you can still buy it from specialized online sellers, but only 500ml at a time and it's not cheap). hydrogen peroxide? you can find in stores only 3% stuff, nitrates? just calcium nitrate from garden stores (not easy to find tho), nitric acid 0, never found in any percentage, but the most funny thing is that here any compound with boron is banned or rextricted, no borax or boric acid in any store

woelen - 4-9-2018 at 03:13

Nearly everything I must buy online. Locally, I only can get NaOH (but the shops where I can find this become fewer every year), acetone (but becomes more and more difficult), diethyl ether, petroleum ether, 4% NaOCl, 8% CH3COOH, 10% HCl, 5% NH3 and 3% H2O2. Even the chlorine based swimming pool chemicals suddenly disappeared from the shelves. I have to buy these online.

Online, however, we can still buy nearly everything. Only the 7 chemicals, which are restricted by EU regulations 2013/98 cannot be obtained, nearly everything else can.

Tsjerk - 4-9-2018 at 03:42

I never had any problems legally obtaining any chemical except for the ones mentioned here by Woelen.

Herr Haber - 4-9-2018 at 04:05

Quote: Originally posted by nagyepf

What if you travel to other European country,buy the fertilizer and travel back to Germany?
[Edited on 02-09-2017 by nagyepf]

[Edited on 02-09-2017 by nagyepf]

Wait, so you know about Eu "stupid laws" but dont know about Schengen ?

These laws, though they are a pain in the ass are not stupid if they prevent cooks from blowing themselves up and tarnish our hobby's reputation further.

Edit: I learned the hard way some of these Polish suppliers will just take your money and never answer again.

[Edited on 4-9-2018 by Herr Haber]

woelen - 4-9-2018 at 07:12

I never had such an experience with polish suppliers. An especially good one is onyxmet.com and another nice one is pyrogarage.pl. On eBay there are some polish sellers and I never had one who just took the money. I think it also is a matter of being careful on which websites you buy things. On eBay you have at least some buyer protection and a seller which just takes your money will not have a long history on eBay.

Sulaiman - 4-9-2018 at 09:24

I have bought from onyxmet a few times and one eBay purchase from a Polish seller,
If I had more spare cash I'd buy lots of stuff from Poland,
especially from Onyxmet.
None of my parcels was opened by customs.
Member mario has sold chemicals to many here and received praise.

[Edited on 4-9-2018 by Sulaiman]

nagyepf - 4-9-2018 at 10:43

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

Only the 7 chemicals, which are restricted by EU regulations 2013/98 cannot be obtained, nearly everything else can.

What are exacttly the 7 chemicals?And wasnt there any restriction before 2013?
I dont want to bring politics to this forum but if you look at the alcoholic Jean-Claude Juncker(Drunker) you can see what politicians are in the EU.

CobaltChloride - 4-9-2018 at 11:35

The 7 chemicals woelen is talking about are hydrogen peroxide above 12%, nitric acid above 3%, sodium chlorate above 40%, potassium chlorate above 40%, sodium perchlorate above 40%, potassium perchlorate above 40% and nitromethane above 30%. (Source: annex I of this https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:...)

The restriction wasn't implemented in all EU countries in 2013 though. For example, it was implemented in Romania only in March of 2018.

Herr Haber - 5-9-2018 at 03:48

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

I never had such an experience with polish suppliers. An especially good one is onyxmet.com and another nice one is pyrogarage.pl. On eBay there are some polish sellers and I never had one who just took the money. I think it also is a matter of being careful on which websites you buy things. On eBay you have at least some buyer protection and a seller which just takes your money will not have a long history on eBay.

Quite a relief to read good things about Onyxmet as I have been eyeballing their massive catalogue for some time.
I was thinking about getting a couple of things from Pyrogarage but went to Keten since they didnt have magnesium turnings.

And that was the mistake... Keten already failed to send me warning labels on my first order, said he would send it after I mentioned that to him but never received them nor did I receive a reply to my mail at that time.
This time, he didnt send anything at all. His last message was to let me know my order was ready and he would send me the tracking number. No news since this mail from the 22 of June.
Not answering mail nor phone... And since I paid by bank transfer, I'm screwed
Conclusion: Dont buy from Keten.com.pl he is a thief.

At around the same time I got angry at another supplier that wasnt delivering. This one was Laboratory Equipment of Houston.
A bit far from where I am, but I found them on Amazon and was desperately looking for 24/40 PTFE clamps.
I got half of my order. The best and most beautiful clamps in my possession.
It took 4 months, a couple of emails and angry words to get a refund.

Fortunately in the meantime I discovered Mario

nimgoldman - 5-9-2018 at 07:09

N problem with conc. hydrogen peroxide or potassium permanganate in my country. I haven't found conc. sulfuric acid though.

Yes dichromates are next to impossible to get.

There are two big chem suppliers who only sell B2B which sucks...

Fortunately found a latvian supplier who seems to sell to individuals, I got even ether (for extractions) and red phosphorus (for scavenging bromine) without problems - no need to provide ID etc.:

https://www.limac.lv/

I think you will find if you look hard enough - there are still supporters of amateur experimentators.

[Edited on 5-9-2018 by nimgoldman]

CobaltChloride - 5-9-2018 at 07:59

I'm almost sure you can find Cleamen 420 at Praktiker, Leroy Merlin or other such hardware stores in Europe if you are in an EU country which hasn't yet banned concentrated hydrogen peroxide. Cleamen 420 is pure 98% sulfuric acid.

[Edited on 5-9-2018 by CobaltChloride]

nimgoldman - 6-9-2018 at 01:37

Quote: Originally posted by CobaltChloride

I'm almost sure you can find Cleamen 420 at Praktiker, Leroy Merlin or other such hardware stores in Europe if you are in an EU country which hasn't yet banned concentrated hydrogen peroxide. Cleamen 420 is pure 98% sulfuric acid.

[Edited on 5-9-2018 by CobaltChloride]

Found it! Thanks!

As for the H2O2 I got one at 30% concentration from a grow shop - they sell it for disinfection of irrigation systems.

nagyepf - 6-9-2018 at 11:16

Quote: Originally posted by CobaltChloride

The 7 chemicals woelen is talking about are hydrogen peroxide above 12%, nitric acid above 3%, sodium chlorate above 40%, potassium chlorate above 40%, sodium perchlorate above 40%, potassium perchlorate above 40% and nitromethane above 30%.

Wernt there any other restrictions before 2013?

[Edited on 02-09-2017 by nagyepf]