I have a problem. I have some KCN, and it's currently in a glass vial. The problem is I have no way of really sealing it... airtight, I mean. It's
currently in the vial in a bag, in a jar in another bag in a box that's duct taped shut... but before I put the duct tape on it it was still giving
off a strong almond-y smell, so it worries me. I expect this storage method to be only temporary, but I'm not sure what to do with it now. Any ideas
on how I should store this?YT2095 - 23-8-2007 at 00:36
Baby food jars are great for this, they seal airtight and are quite heat tolerant.
the original glass vial in a small ziplock bag inside a baby food jar is fine. nothing should escape that.
I suggest a padded plastic tub to keep that in to prevent mechanical damage.
I have my NaCN stored similarly, with a bottle of Amyl nitrite in there and a loaded IV hypo of thiosulphate too.Nerro - 23-8-2007 at 02:06
So... It's
in a vial,
in a bag,
in a jar,
in a bag,
in a box?
I'm guessing you'll live if you store the box in an at least moderately ventilated spot.Sauron - 23-8-2007 at 03:20
How much KCN is there in a vial?
A few grams?
Just how much HCN can possibly come off of that even with 100% instant conversion?
Don't be absurd.YT2095 - 23-8-2007 at 04:30
Sauron in that case it`s even MORE important to be sure it`s stored correctly!
if you only have a couple of grams and you can smell it through all that, then you can bet comes time to use it there won`t be anything left any good
to use!
I Would worry if I could smell mine leaking, I only have a few grams too, and would like to keep it that way.boxes - 23-8-2007 at 07:07
Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
How much KCN is there in a vial?
A few grams?
Just how much HCN can possibly come off of that even with 100% instant conversion?
Don't be absurd.
I'm not really worried about how much HCN there is... it's the fact that I can smell it at all that worries me.
But yeah, I only have a few grams.Jdurg - 23-8-2007 at 07:26
Remember, the human nose is VERY adept to the odor of cyanides. If it wasn't, we'd never be able to smell any almonds ever. Even though you may be
able to smell it, chances are a great deal of it is not actually being given off. If I open up a jar of potassium thicyanate, I can even recognize a
faint odor of HCN in the air even though the amounts are close to nothing.YT2095 - 23-8-2007 at 08:04
although there IS a significant portion of the populous that Cannot smell it at all!
80/20 IIRC, although I`m not sure which side is which.woelen - 23-8-2007 at 08:57
I can't smell it . I did tests with this.
I always smell (of course VERY carefully) dangerous gases at low concentrations, I also did with Cl2, Br2, SO2, HN3, NH3, and many others. I do this,
so that I know the smell and can use this as an alarm system. All mentioned gases have a strong smell to me, but HCN doesn't have any smell to me.
This makes working with cyanides extremely dangerous for me and hence, I hardly do any experiments with them, and if I do, then I only do on a
micro-micro scale, not just micro-scale .YT2095 - 23-8-2007 at 09:02
I have no idea if I can smell it or not, and have no idea how you would even safely find out?
I hope I never smell it anyway DerAlte - 23-8-2007 at 09:02
If you can't smell it there's either none there or too much - in which case it may be too late! This happens with H2S, to which the nose is also
extremely sensitive. The body has a lot of built in safety systems. Der Altepantone159 - 23-8-2007 at 10:55
I have heard (no personal experience, however) that the smell of HCN is very different for different people. Some cannot smell it at all, some find
it smells foul but not at all like almonds, and some find that it indeed smells like almonds. You need to calibrate your personal nose.
Supposedly, something about smoking tobacco makes the smell of HCN more apparent. This once led to some conventional wisdom that one should smoke
when dealing with cyanides, although this has obvious severe problems.boxes - 23-8-2007 at 15:25
Thanks guys! This was very helpful, and I'm not freaking out so bad anymore.Sauron - 23-8-2007 at 16:48
If you ever work with NaCN or KCN, even in modest amounts, even in a good hood, even in what you reckon is a pretty good reflux setup, you are very
likely to smell HCN. No need to get the respirator out. But you will smell burnt almonds and no the guy in the next hood won't be working with
benzaldehyde.
An old Org.Syn. procedure recommends smoking tobacco while working with cyanide. Supposedly the HCN affects the taste of the smoke very distinctively.
Of course smoking in any lab is now so politically incorrect that this advice is merely amusing.16MillionEyes - 23-8-2007 at 18:33
So wait, the advice basically suggests: "Consume over 2000 toxins while working with another toxin so that the feeling of injuring yourself is more
pleasing"?Ozone - 23-8-2007 at 19:46
Smells like almonds to me, but I was a smoker at the time. I have not smelt it since I have quit (which is now approximately 3 weeks--grits teeth).
IIRC, it was Gattermann who suggested smoking as SOP for HCN operations.
Strangely, our KCN is in a glass bottle with the stock bakelite cap and it sits quietly, and without odor, on the shelf next to the KCl (and other
K's).
Cheers,
O3
[Edited on 23-8-2007 by Ozone]Jdurg - 25-8-2007 at 17:16
A good indication if you can smell it is to take a whiff of SuperGlue. Cyanoacrylates will minimally break down and I believe that a breakdown
product is HCN in VERY tiny amounts.unionised - 26-8-2007 at 06:21
I don't know what hydrogen cyanide smells like. On the other hand I do know what methyl cyanide smells like; at least to me it has very little odour
whereas my colleagues wish I'd be a lot more careful with the stuff. It's not that they are concerned about the toxicity but they think it stinks. So
I guess I might be smell-blend to HCN since I nearly am to CH3CN.
On the other hand, I know exactly what cyanoacrylate smells like and to me it smells more like an ester than anything else, so sniffing superglue
won't help you find out what HCN smells like.Ozone - 26-8-2007 at 06:35
Yikes! cyanoacrylate smells "acrylaty" to me and is lachrymatory. Cyanoacrylate has a unique smell which is quite different than methylmethacrylate,
for example. I do not find that it smells like cyanide, though.
I have always found acetonitrile to have a very mild "acetic" smell to it (and little smell, otherwise), but it is not (to me) reminiscent of almonds,
nor does it stink (which, of course is also relative).
I don't think that lack of offense to AcCN necessarily implies "olfactory blindness" () to HCN. I'll not intentionally do a side-by-side comparison to test this.
Cheers,
O3Jdurg - 26-8-2007 at 07:14
You see, I can't notice an ester-like odor to cyanoacrylate. To me, it smells like bittered, charred almonds and nothing like a classic ester which
tends to have a sweetness to the odor.YT2095 - 26-8-2007 at 07:39
Ozone I`m with you also, it is indeed lachrymatory, even when Dry and then heated (if you solder close to some).
it`s a perfectly horrible effect, Hostaform plastic is similar when Hot too, YUCK!sparkgap - 26-8-2007 at 07:53
Hmm... I find cyanoacrylate ester's odor to be more pleasing than, say, ethyl acetate, but overpowering if I am exposed for too long.
But before I veer off, I can smell benzaldehyde but not cyanide. Strange, it seems.
Ozone, acetonitrile would be MeCN, not AcCN which implies a cyano group adjacent to a carbonyl, and that is now a completely different species.
sparky (~_~)Ozone - 26-8-2007 at 17:27
I am aware of the structure of acetonitrile. I apologize for any confusion, but I was using shorthand.
Yes (MeCN is the correct, official abbreviation), but AcCN, an abbreviation commonly used in text for methyl cyanide (ethanenitrile) is bastardized
from the name Ac-eto-nitrile, hence, AcCN (a bit more descriptive that ACN). This is about as correct as "methylene chloride" for DCM, but is, nevertheless, the shorthand that I commonly use..
"OTA is extracted preferably from the entire acinus, rather than must; using chloroform at long incubation time period, lyophilized, resolubilized in
acetonitrile (AcCN) and injected onto a reversed phase capillary or analytical column."
And so on.
It is quite amazing how variable the sense of smell is betwixt individuals! Ethyl acetate does not smell bad to me (a bit like bananas), but does give
me a horrible headache if I work with enough.
I'm not sure if I whould be scared about my inability to detect a burnt, bitter almond smell in cyanoacrylate...
Again, we keep KCN at work in the regular container as shipped, on the shelf, and don't seem to have any problems. It's an oooold bottle, too! (but I
have used it as a quick standard w/barbituric acid-chloramine-T, and it assays >90%).
Cheers,
O3Flamethrowa - 28-10-2007 at 07:21
Smoking while working with cyanides? Perhaps to bind as much CO as possible to your hemoglobin leaving less work for the CN?Antwain - 28-10-2007 at 08:13
Just thought I'd add my 2 cents. I can't smell cyanide. I got my father (an ex chemist with a good nose) to smell a dead reaction vessel from which
cyanide had been distilled. He said it was there, faintly. I couldn't smell it. But I can smell almonds. So its not quite true to say it smells like
almonds at least not to me.
Hmmm I wonder what almonds smell like to the other 80%???
Btw, cyanide doesn't bind to hemoglobin. Nor myoglobin.
[Edited on 29-10-2007 by Antwain]Tinton - 17-12-2007 at 14:04
Apparently, some people can't detect the smell of hydrogen cyanide due to a genetic trait.
. I did tests with this.
.
at least not to me.