Sciencemadness Discussion Board - one of our own BUSTED for a firework!

one of our own BUSTED for a firework!

YT2095 - 22-7-2007 at 10:13

Richard, a good mate of mine and a member here has been arrested along with his Wife: http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/dewsbury-news?articlei...
and: http://www.spenboroughguardian.co.uk/news?articleid=3026334

you`ll note the Headline!

he`de made a firework! nothing more nothing less.

this country`s gone fucking MENTAL! :mad:

[Edited on 22-7-2007 by YT2095]

Waffles - 22-7-2007 at 10:54

yeah, the word 'bomb' seems just a tad reactive (no pun intended). but what can you expect from the media, eh?

here's your lesson of the day: trust no one. not your government, not your neighbors, not your friends. i have those words tattooed on the inside of my wrist so i see them several dozen times every day

Ridiculous !

MadHatter - 22-7-2007 at 13:16

YT2095, my country, the U.S., went mental a long time ago about fireworks. The CPSC
is working feverishly to outlaw all consumer fireworks and hobby pyrotechnics. That
won't stop most of us. I'm just more careful about where I do my "testing". On certain
holidays we can get away with the illegal fireworks because there's so many people
using them. The cops don't even bother.

Your friends' mistake was leaving it where it was visible to the snitching meter reader.
NOSY FUCKERS ! :mad:

Magpie - 22-7-2007 at 13:20

Yes it seems that the UK police are into major overreaction mode. I am sorry to hear that the people arrested are our own and personal friends of YT2095.

The comment about the "device with wires sticking out" assumed to be a bomb is scary as I have a lot of homemade devices with wires sticking out. They have everything to do with mad science and nothing to do with bombs.

I also have a lot of PVC pipe stubs of various lengths and diameters accumulated during an attempted development of a suction jet for my hood. I think I'd better shitcan these as surely they would be assumed to be for bombs.

The problem of service personnel entering your private space to do repairs or take meter readings is a tough one. The meter readers march into my backyard any time they feel like it. I'm not sure what I'm going to do if I have to hire some repairs in my garage where my hood is located.

chromium - 23-7-2007 at 00:33

I will not write what i feel here as you all know it but here is one characteristic patten i want to note.

One can see here how impression of crime can be created by police from almost everything. There are quite lot of things that are not dangerous when used as intended but if detonator is attached to them (by police of course) then they behave like dangerous bombs.

Someone calls police telling he shaw something that might be a bomb. Police runs to the place and finds something that indeed is not just bag of sawdust but CAN BE MADE to explode. Now they just need to attach detonator and all locals and journalist see and hear explosion and know that there was great danger indeed.

Considering how many policemen there are in place, and even army truck, locals and journalists are completely sure that something very serious is going on.

No matter that jury after some months finds that there was nothing dangerous. Policemen and journalist do not get blamed for their paranoid hyperactivity. Instead they are encouraged to go the same way in the future as there COULD have been true terrorist.

As this is quite a repressing thing if your house is suddenly filled with policemen and you wil not know for sure if you can prove in the court that you are not guilty - and even if you can you have to live with neighbours who are excited against you and some of your valuable property may also be destroyed.

This is example of how people can be repressed by law enforcement, bypassing common legal system and how it is actually used in common society.

[Edited on 23-7-2007 by chromium]

Exactly

chloric1 - 23-7-2007 at 02:20

This just reinforces my already reclusive inclinations. Years ago(1994) I had a nasty encounter with the fuzz all because I asked for service to my air conditioner. Learned my lesson for sure. Before the war on terror it was the war on drugs. Same old shit.

YT2095 - 23-7-2007 at 05:36

I don`t blame the Police in any of this, how Should they respond when Mr Bean finds a Bomb! and reports it.

I do blame the press and this "Mr Bean" gas man Numpty however.
also after chatting to him on the phone last night, it turns out is was Roman candle type firework (not even colored), and the Gas man put it ON the Gas Meter himself and then called the police.

and btw, Media Accuracy... he doesn`t even HAVE a cellar!

chromium - 23-7-2007 at 05:52

Quote:

Originally posted by YT2095
I don`t blame the Police in any of this, how Should they respond when Mr Bean finds a Bomb! and reports it.

They should be at least sceptical on accuracy of what that unknown Mister Bean reports to them and not make big show show from nothing.

froot - 23-7-2007 at 06:57

Great post Chromuim.
Now how are the media going to fix this man's reputation? I feel they have an obligation to do so.

quicksilver - 23-7-2007 at 07:16

You can see clearly how this "tattle-tailing" in Britain can be used as a weapon in and of itself! Due to logical sensitivity about weapons in the hands of terrorists, British cops bust down doors on the word of most anyone. Eventually, there will be a pervasive paranoia that will permeate the whole of society.

YT2095 - 23-7-2007 at 07:26

I agree, and also what are they going to do for his kids?

when I got off the phone to him yesterday, they were quite confused by the whole ordeal, all computers have been taken even the kids x-box (apparently you can get online with one?) they took the landline an base untit and left him with a normal phone so they can rip the numbers off, they even took all his scrap cct boards (bits out of washing machines etc...).

and they`ve also been asking about ME!

so I`ve no idea if I`m due for another raid or not either, where they found nothing last time and will find nothing this time either, as I have Nothing to hide, not back then OR now.

it makes me sick it really does! in this Lab I`ve done Nothing other than help people with their problems, that`s what I do, I fix things and make things to help folks, from wool dyes to tailor made plant foods to a busted CD player or radio.
and I`ve never hurt any fucker in my life (nor want to).

BUT,,,, we`re easy prey!
rather than go out and bust the REAL terrorists or whatever, this scores public brownie points for a fraction of the cost

and it`s just plain WRONG!

Phosphor-ing - 23-7-2007 at 08:07

Quote:

Originally posted by YT2095
I`ve never hurt any fucker in my life (nor want to).

Unfortunately, the police nowadays don't care about that! :mad:

They only concern themselves with "could" you hurt anyone. I don't think you have anything to worry about YT. Judging from what I've seen on your website, and a nice one it is by the way, you are not the terrorist/bomb maker/drug lab type.

chemrox - 23-7-2007 at 17:12

it started when you let them take away your guns

Eclectic - 23-7-2007 at 19:19

And when you became afraid to speak up.

Fleaker - 23-7-2007 at 22:53

I'm with Eclectic. It starts whenever someone caves in, and so it gains momentum.

I don't blame the police, or the snooping meter reader. If I were in his position, I probably would've given the benefit of the doubt. Still, other thoughts and paranoid temptations would be running through my mind (perhaps confront the owner, tell the police). It seems everyone wants to play hero.

Arresting people and keeping them from their children is unacceptable, especially considering it was a small firework, not a high explosive with a radio-controlled detonator! It is terrible, considering there's no malicious intent or plans for terrorism found on premise. I doubt your friend YT2095 will even get an apology for the bother, instead, it will be your friend and his family that has to deal with a bothersome blemish for years to come.

Unreasonable paranoia gets the better of us all, but there's some wisdom in "trust no one. not your government, not your neighbors, not your friends."

" They only concern themselves with "could" you hurt anyone."
Odd they think that way, but doubtless it is true. However, if that's their reasoning, then everyone should be a suspect, for all people have the capability and the capacity to hurt others, knowingly or not.

froot - 24-7-2007 at 06:19

Well in order to make a point that they are in control and 'leaving no stones unturned' in the fight against terrorism they have obviously considered an innocent person's wellbeing dispensable. That is the part that gets me, they are turning on the people they are trying to protect and the terrorists have won again.

What they can't seem to notice is the massive difference between possessing something that can 'potentially harm others' and meditating about using it to do so, much along the lines of Fleaker's point.

I don't believe they had enough evidence to justify going in sirens blazing, even if it was a terrorist hideout, they should've used intel and technology available to them to monitor activities (or lack of) and kept a low profile. This way they would've probably found further possible leads and evidence to persue and support a building case. Terrorist hideouts are generally secluded and the vacinity won't be under any threat anyway as their targets would logically be at a relatively remote location. Officers responding to a possible terrorist threat need to report to a higher power before acting. Terrorists tend to have a back-up plan to avoid apprehension to the extent of self destruction, which may have ended the existance of the responding officers. To avoid this, they should've planned the apprehension more carefully and kept it discrete. Another point is that it could be possible that the hideout may have been under survaillance already and at the point of a breakthrough, only to be spoiled by another arm of the force.

To sum it up, it is apparent to me that the law enforcement in this situation have demonstrated nothing but how disjointed and disorganised they are, and that is what's giving the terrorists more confidence and what should be making everyone else very concerned. There is no way a collaboration like this, with all the tools at their service, will ever catch the big fish, and I hope the right people read this. It smells like a public display to impress resulting in the humiliation of the country's law enforcement, YT's mate and his family.

mrjeffy321 - 24-7-2007 at 07:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Fleaker
I doubt your friend YT2095 will even get an apology for the bother, instead, it will be your friend and his family that has to deal with a bothersome blemish for years to come.

Oh, his friend getting an apology is out of the question, it is not going to happen…..if anything it is more likely that he will have to give an apology for ‘all the trouble he caused’ and the ‘potential harm he could have done’.
Not that this is right.

YT2095 - 24-7-2007 at 07:24

if he`de have been left alone, he`de have lit this in his back garden at night with his kids and explained to them what it was and how it worked.

same way he did with the cobalt chloride paper I told him to make to sense if it`s going to rain or not.
or with the rocket cars he got his kids involved in making (I gave him his 1`st engine to use).

this guy is NOT a terrorist!
he`s an unemployed guy that worked servicing and repairing hospital X-Ray machines, but was forced to leave because of a serious back injury, so he`s Bored and wants to learn new things and pass that onto his kids.

THAT is all he was doing!

I am a fish - 24-7-2007 at 14:50

This is disturbing on many levels. Most prominently, it seems that electronic hobbyists are now falling under suspicion. It is a damning indictment on modern society that a homemade object "with wires sticking out of it" is regarded as a "grim discovery". It seems that those involved didn't even consider that someone may want chemicals and electronic components for innocent reasons.

evil_lurker - 24-7-2007 at 15:57

It don't matter what is reasons or intentions were.

He had a "bomb like" device wired up and ready to go. The police were right on to take every safety precaution they deemed necessary in disposing of the device. I mean hell, if it LOOKS like an explosive and you were in the shoes of the officer in charge of getting rid of it, by god you would TREAT it like an improvised unstable explosive device of unknown power.

The guy who had it in his house should feel damn lucky they didn't detonate it in place, pray he doesn't have to shell out thousands of dollars on an attorney to defend any criminal charges, and if he finally walks away a free man count his blessings.

Eclectic - 24-7-2007 at 16:05

It's just that sort of bullshit abdication of our civil rights that make things like this seem acceptable to the sheeple. :mad:

You better hope you don't have any electronic "timing devices" when they come breaking down YOUR door.

Police State

MadHatter - 24-7-2007 at 17:59

This is what truly exists in what's supposed to be a free country. It's almost as bad
here in the states. I didn't "count my blessings" when I was busted for having the audacity
to defend myself with a gun. All of my guns were stolen by the police. They were supposed
to have been returned to a family member but never were. The only thing I got was a jail
sentence and a lecture from the judge on the "evils" of owning guns ! FUCK THEM !

Oh, BTW, a friend had called the local wankers to report vandalism on his car. Upon
arrival, Deputy Dogshit took down a report and then informed my friend that the
plastic cover on his license plate was illegal because the reflection interferes with
red light cameras ! The fucking cop was more concerned about that plastic than the
damage to my friends car !

The cops around here are not friends to anybody !

The_Davster - 24-7-2007 at 18:33

I am disgusted. The stories told in this thread are very depressing.

YTs friends arrest, Magpie's questioning whether he should keep PVC scraps, as they could be thought to be bombs

, Madhatters stolen property. And other stories not in this thread.
Kinda reminds me of the bumper sticker:
"when was the last time you heard anyone say 'go ahead, its a free country'?"

This is all so fucked.

evil_lurker - 24-7-2007 at 18:59

Quote:

Originally posted by MadHatter
This is what truly exists in what's supposed to be a free country. It's almost as bad
here in the states. I didn't "count my blessings" when I was busted for having the audacity
to defend myself with a gun. All of my guns were stolen by the police. They were supposed
to have been returned to a family member but never were. The only thing I got was a jail
sentence and a lecture from the judge on the "evils" of owning guns ! FUCK THEM !

Oh, BTW, a friend had called the local wankers to report vandalism on his car. Upon
arrival, Deputy Dogshit took down a report and then informed my friend that the
plastic cover on his license plate was illegal because the reflection interferes with
red light cameras ! The fucking cop was more concerned about that plastic than the
damage to my friends car !

The cops around here are not friends to anybody !

That is truely the way shit works in many parts of the USA.

I learned a long time ago that any run in with the law or other government agencies (whether your in the right or wrong) is likely to result in one thing... loss.

Loss in the form of property taken and destroyed, loss of money spent on attorney fees and court costs, loss of time spent getting them off your back, and most valuable of all, the potential loss of freedom.

Its a heck of lot easier for a person rant and rave about how everyones civil rights is being abdicated until the gov't decides to target that person.

Just ask anyone who has ever tangled with the government and I'd be willing to bet that most will agree it is an unwinnable fight in the long run.

[Edited on 24-7-2007 by evil_lurker]

I am a fish - 25-7-2007 at 03:13

Quote:

Where do you live?

What precisely happened?

How long did you get?

Eclectic - 25-7-2007 at 03:41

I didn't just rant and rave when I was on the receiving end of this bullshit. I used my first amendment rights to ridicule the local cops and SBI as much as possible. :mad:

If you don't assert your rights, you don't have any.

[Edited on 7-25-2007 by Eclectic]

quicksilver - 25-7-2007 at 05:33

Quote:

I am also interested in the general area of where this occurred.....obviously the authorities have done a seriously piss-poor job dealing with the public. Something is DEEPLY wrong when a guy honestly believes that the cops are human garbage, wanting only to hassle and make life more complicated.

However there is a saying that is vitally important to remember: "He who calls the cops 1st, wins". If -=EVER=- a person has to deal with law enforcement agencies, it's vitally important that the person initiate the call first! The problem comes in when the lack of trust is so low that it seems like a self-destructive thing to do......THAT is what should be publicized! And in every way possible!

Maryland

MadHatter - 25-7-2007 at 16:29

Yes, that's the not-so "Free State" of Maryland. Maryland is 1 of only 10 states that
severely restrict a person's right to carry a gun. Permits are issued only to cops,
those whoes job requires it, or to a select class of wealthy and/or professional
persons. Not being in any of those classes, of course my application was DENIED.
The state police determined that there was "no reason" I should be allowed to carry
a gun. This puts me in the same group of the 99% of applications that are
routinely rejected.

To tell you how bad it is here, some state agencies don't even allow a cop to carry
his/her service weapon when "off duty". If they're not allowed then what chance
does a regular citizen have in obtaining a gun permit ?

What happened was almost 10 years ago. I lived in a high crime, drug ridden area.
Despite the law, when I stepped out of my apartment after dark, I carried a .45 ACP
Springfield Armory(no offense Colt fans !) with me if I had to do anything at all !
I was taking out some trash and had dumped it when I saw 2 of the addicts setting
me up. I've been robbed before so I know the signs. I fired into the ground the scare
them off. It worked, of course, but then some of my drug addict neighbors called the
fucking cops. Next thing I saw was the local wankers breaking down my apartment
door with M-16s aimed on me. I guess I'm lucky to be alive because I didn't have the
gun in my hands. They confiscated(STOLE !) all of my guns and my actions made the
local news telecast.

The dumb fucking cops asked stupid questions like "Where are the people who tried
to rob you ?". As if they would hang around and fess up to their sins ! Under Maryland
law, self-defense is not an excuse to violate their pistol laws !

I did 30 days in jail, mandatory minimum - maximum is 3 years on a 1st offense. This
was 30 days out of a 3 year suspended sentence. It's a misdemeanor in this state
but unless I can get a pardon from the governor, I'll never be allowed to own a
firearm as long as I live ! The chances of a pardon are not good given the anti-gun
stance of Governor Martin J. O'Malley.

The reaction of my family was no surprise. On my father's side, they were glad that my
guns had been taken away. My father's side of the family has always been antigun.
I was ordered by the court to see a psychiatrist. Dad's side of the family was pleased
about this also. Mom's side of the family was completely OUTRAGED ! This is the
side of the family I take after ! We don't like gun control or government interference
of any kind. Leave us alone ! The overall political differences of the families
are apparent also. Dad - Liberal, Mom - Conservative. Guess which side I'm on ?

quicksilver - 26-7-2007 at 06:01

I am VERY sorry to hear that whole issue unfold the way it did. I honestly think you were victimized twice. There are some states where the people don't have a Nanny State mentality but as Kalifornians move away from their spawning ground and take their politics with them - they try to make other states as wacky as their hive was uninhabitable. - And that was EXACTLY why Oregon had such a visceral reaction to all the N. Kalifornians moving their in the 1970-80's..... It's not about right or left...Bush or Clinton; it's about "stay out of my life". If that can be understood in the light of the abortion and gay right's debate; why can't it be understood in other areas as well? - Because the gun (or any target object) becomes the symbol....The symbol that gets votes from those who actually think that the cops are there to protect them, the politicians have their best interest at heart, etc.
Left or right, the politicians don't give a damn about the average working man or woman.

Please note that if anyone is from that state and does not believe that the government should be able to control the very element of self preservation; my apologies. I have seen simply too many people embrace that way of thinking until they have to deal with life on life's terms. I am sure that not everyone from Kalifornia is so easily duped. But the majority decide for all what should be and on occasion poor decisions are made. Dealing with an OBJECT to control behaviour is not feasible. You can't legislate morality.

[Edited on 26-7-2007 by quicksilver]

vulture - 26-7-2007 at 07:28

Quote:

I've been robbed before so I know the signs. I fired into the ground the scare
them off. It worked, of course, but then some of my drug addict neighbors called the
fucking cops. Next thing I saw was the local wankers breaking down my apartment
door with M-16s aimed on me. I guess I'm lucky to be alive because I didn't have the
gun in my hands. They confiscated(STOLE !) all of my guns and my actions made the
local news telecast.

They're practically inviting you to shoot the fucker and tell them you grabbed his gun...

That said, I wonder what would happen if someone tried to rob you with a knife and you somehow managed to stab the perp.

[Edited on 26-7-2007 by vulture]

Rosco Bodine - 26-7-2007 at 08:37

@MadHatter

Two things you should do .....leave Maryland and move to one of the states where you still retain *all* of your rights as a US citizen ....not just being regarded as a
property subordinate *subject* of the "member state" which evidently cannot read the US constitution .

Don't even bother trying to legally challenge the case
because it is a waste of money on lawyers playing as actors in a rigged game that is corrupt from the top down .
If the state of Maryland wasn't acting with the complicity of the US government and federal courts , then the US Supreme Court would immediately claim original jurisdiction concerning such a blatant constitutional violation by a state of the rights of a US citizen , and strike down the law and nullify all convictions which have arisen from its enforcement .

What I would do , but that's just me ....is make it a personal matter between myself and my persecutors
who damn well should know better . To those who wrongly supposed that I was a citizen of Maryland first and so they basically presumed that they owned my ass and could trample me as they pleased .....I would shall we say "introduce myself" as being a US citizen who
assertively takes exception with their theory and more
directly with their action which sprang from that wrong thinking , the means of expression of that exception being
*direct* retribution on their persons , since they established the precedent .

As for those who would say how foolish or uncivilized ,
I say what goes around comes around ...so don't tread on me . When it comes to quality of life dipping below a certain threshold , and having dogs and guns are there
for me .....anyone trying to deny me those things is tired of living , and without them I am too ....so maybe it's then time to solve each others problems in a scenario where peace can no longer exist . Or maybe on the other hand
good sense prevailing would have reasonable people just
live and let live , instead of putting the matter to the test to prove it goes down just like I said it would .

In my estimation , the people who persecuted you have already forfeited their right to share the same air ....
and you have some disinfecting to do to clear the stink .

BTW .....that sort of "law enforcement" is only dispensed
by one sort that are "just doing their jobs" ...
*fucking pigs* . Welcome to Animal Farm , and it's way past 1984 .

[Edited on 26-7-2007 by Rosco Bodine]

woelen - 26-7-2007 at 09:10

@MadHatter: I find this comparison of carrying a gun and doing small-scale home chemistry or pyrotechnics as initially mentioned by YT2095 completely different things.
Where I live, things probably are even more strict than where you live. Police may carry a gun, but if they use it, a lot of investigations will follow and if they really kill someone with their gun (while doing their job), then they may be dismissed as police officer. Of course, police is not allowed to carry their gun, when off-duty, and all other citizens may not have a gun at all (some exceptions are made for sports guns, with tons of restrictions and paper work). I personally think the dutch situation is very good and I really am glad that carrying a gun is strictly prohibited over here.
On the other hand, pyrotechnics also is strictly prohibited over here, and I think that is a stupid thing. If people make small pieces of fireworks or do some small-scale pyro experiments, then I see no harm in that. A little fountain is far far away from a device, capable of blowing up[ things, or killing people. Of course, things should be within reasonable bounds and having tens of kilos around of pre-made mixes and devices is another matter. I have no real objection against that, but then there should be some restrictions on storage and transport. But if someone has arranged things well and safe, then even larger amounts are not a real problem to me.

In short: guns: NO, pyrotechnis: yes

Pyrotechnics

MadHatter - 26-7-2007 at 09:31

Woelen, the antigun and antipyro laws are pretty much on the same footing here. It's the
privilege of the wealthly. No person, in Maryland, even with an BATFE Type 20 high explosives
license, may manufacture fireworks unless it's done at a Maryland licensed and approved
manufacturing plant. For the obvious reasons of money, no amateur pyro can do that.
Sounds like Maryland residents and the Dutch have a lot in common.

BTW, Maryland cops who shoot someone with their service weapons are rarely investigated
and I've never seen them prosecuted even if the shooting is ruled as excessive force.
There have been drug raids where innocents have been killed but the cops were never
prosecuted. The authorities call it an "accidental" shooting and that's the end of it.

In one case that outraged the local citizens, an FBI agent fired an M-4 carbine into the face
of an innocent kid who was unlatching his seatbelt after he was ordered to get out of his
girlfriend's car. The 17-year old kid resembled a suspect in a bank robbery. He was completely
innocent. The FBI has told his parents they can't sue the federal government because
"the agent was doing his job" ! This incident made it to the news media and I'm sure some
of U.S. members remember it.

[Edited on 2007/7/26 by MadHatter]

Rosco Bodine - 26-7-2007 at 09:39

Big Brother has sure got you euros well trained .

Clearly , criminals will always have guns , no matter what the laws or legal restrictions , they will have them as tools of their trade .

So I cannot fathom why anyone would favor gun control or gun bans .....except those who are quite content with the proposition of being unarmed and trusting their security entirely to the discretion of people who have the advantage by being armed themselves in situations where those armed may be on either side of what is law
or more basically , what is right or wrong .

That proposition simply leaves too much to chance ,
and entirely removes your own options ....it is a kind of resignation to whatever fate may deliver to you , instead of claiming some power of self-determination in having any chance in adversity where a gun may be the very thing needed to alter for you what would otherwise be the unfavorable outcome for a defenseless person .
Why not just wear a T-shirt proclaiming
"I Surrender , do with me what you will!" ???

( And while you are at it , then do what you will with my wife , my baby , .....my entire household is at your mercy ,
and since you are such a kind and charitable criminal , we know you can be trusted to respect us )

Europe

MadHatter - 26-7-2007 at 09:51

Rosco, not all of Europe is that restrictive. Think of Switzerland. I don't know
about the pyro laws in European countries but I imagine some of them are like
Maryland's. As always, it depends on the politicians. It's interesting that we're
allowed to buy/use more types of fireworks than we could in the past but that
manufacturing law is bullshit. In the past it was strictly sparklers and "novelty"
items. We're allowed fountains and a few other devices now.

[Edited on 2007/7/26 by MadHatter]

unionised - 26-7-2007 at 09:54

Erm,
Nobody seems to have noticed that these folk were arrested for breaking the law.
Rightly or wrongly, the manufacture of fireworks without a license is unlawfull in the UK.
What else could the cops do? Say, "Oh, yes, it's not legal but who cares?".
If these people had been nicked for driving without a license would anyone here be making a fuss?

Since the manufacture of unlicensed fireworks has been iligal for a long time- well before 9/11 for a start- perhaps someone ought to look at why there's a requirement for a license. The rather dull answer is that small, badly-run firework factories kept killing their workforce.

Would someone please explain how we got form "people arrested for breaking law" to " hey! criminals will always carry guns"

Criminals

MadHatter - 26-7-2007 at 10:06

Unionised, please forgive me for my rant but I feel for YT's friends. It's the same police
state mentality that brings out so much anger. And yes, there are the criminals here
in the states who make M-80s in mass quantities. But they do it strictly for profit. I was
injured(end cap hit me in the elbow) by one of these 15 years ago. My friend had
paid $5 a piece. A piece of shit is what it was. None of them exploded instead pushing
out the endcaps with a muffled bang that had less noise than a firecracker. The powder
didn't even burn completely. Looks like whoever made them was trying to use a very coarse
grade aluminum powder for the flash charge. It was almost granular and silvery unlike the
dark grades.

As for the comparison to guns, it's the overreaction and arrogance that I feel is
similar. It may be unlawful to make fireworks in the U.K. but remember, the authorities
thought it was a BOMB.
The arrogance and corruption behind some of these so-called "law enforcement"
agencies is unbelievable. Probably no more, or less, than a corporation, but the effect
on us can be more damaging and damning.

[Edited on 2007/7/26 by MadHatter]

Rosco Bodine - 26-7-2007 at 10:20

Sign , sign .... everywhere a sign ,
blocking the scenery , breaking my mind ....
Do this , Don't do that ! Can't you read the sign ?

Don't walk on grass ...
smoke grass

BATF ......KMA ! IRS too . Stuff it .

[Edited on 26-7-2007 by Rosco Bodine]

YT2095 - 26-7-2007 at 10:28

Quote:

Originally posted by unionised

If these people had been nicked for driving without a license would anyone here be making a fuss?

but would the Media either? would it be headlines that they intended to use the car as a weapon to Kill many?
would it even get Into the papers?

and actually under the explosives act 1875 and revised edition 2005 100g of class 4 (UN code 1.4) is perfectly legal to make and use, I`ll grant you the regulations DO indeed get a little sketchy as to How exactly you`re allowed to experiment with this, but you ARE indeed allowed to!

it`s a slap on the wrist jobby at best.

[Edited on 26-7-2007 by YT2095]

U.K. Explosive Regulations

MadHatter - 26-7-2007 at 14:18

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2005/20051082.htm#9

This is where I found the U.K. law pertaining to explosives. It seems there's a specific
prohibition on composition(unless otherwise approved) statute on pyrotechnics.
It concerns the mixture of chlorates with sulphur or phosphorus.

YT2095, you seem to be on the mark concerning having 100 grams, or less of explosives
for experimental use. The authorities may nail your friends on some kind of storage
statute however. The actions of the police were overzealous IMHO, from
what I read in those articles. I wish your friends the best of luck !

After all, this was a homemade roman candle for fireworks use and not that idiot, Swerlein,
who may have been detonating HEs in his garage at 3 AM to the irritation of his neighbors.

The_Davster - 26-7-2007 at 14:57

Ok guys, lets try to keep legal and societal issues to those concerning chemical hobbyists, not a 'gun control' debate again.
While I agree that there are many similarities between the struggles faced by the chemical, pyrotechnic, or firearm hobbyist(boiling down to some people don't trust people with potentially dangerous objects, in a manner of assuming one is guilty before innocent such as you are assumed to be making drugs, bombs or causing violent crime, just from ownership of a material/object), lets keep it to the chemistry. Comparisons between the chemical hobbyist and other groups can be for another thread.

Pyrotechnics

MadHatter - 26-7-2007 at 16:08

With regard to laws on hobby pyrotechnics, I'm looking for state laws concerning
'toy cannons'. I know they can't be used in Baltimore City because ALL consumer
fireworks are illegal there. This along with 2 Maryland counties. The cannon
fires BP and I'd like to try some homemade fodder - with a long fuse of course.
I've never been bothered by the police over fireworks - homemade or pro.
Some of us may be pushing our luck given the screw tightening in Annapolis.

Out of curiosity, I'd like to know what the laws on hobby pyro are like in various
members' communities. Woelen, has already told us about the sad state of affairs
for the Dutch - same shit as Maryland !

quicksilver - 27-7-2007 at 06:54

Please understand that the comparison of the "gun control" debate and pyrotechnics has some similarity as they are simply OBJECTS. This is what I have been saying for many years now. The OBJECT takes on a symbolic element and receives blame for the actions taken with them. As if anyone can legislate morality.......

The thrust of my rant has to do with "Objectification" (with a capital "O"; a sociological phenomenon). We are to ask ourselves WHY are guns "bad"? because they are painted as having a singular purpose, that of a destructive nature. That is done as a political agenda, as logic tells use that no object is evil in and of itself. Frankly I don't believe that guns should be available to anyone and everyone but to embody them as evil is the same logic that would describe a poisonous chemical as simply a poison & search no further in the quest to make society safer, healthier, and place responsibility on the individual for their actions.

To Hell with firearms for a moment....Scotland attempted to vilify knives at one time. Making them a symbol of personal violence & regulating them. Where would it stop? At hammers? Or stones? That would be the logical extension of blaming the OBJECT for it's misuse. You see from my perspective guns or chemicals are not important really; it's personal responsibility that is at issue.

Finding and dealing with root causation is very difficult and from a political perspective; very unsafe. Dealing with issues like education, vocational opportunity, family integrity & support, & mental health are tough issues. But they lay at the basis for much of the dysfunctional behaviour that permeates most of the developed world. - You don't win votes by telling people that they are responsible for their actions. But convince them that they are victims and Big Brother will save them seems to win a Hell of a lot of votes.

Look at our entertainment & communications media and ask yourself what maturity level the average European or American has.....The majority of commercial media is aimed at a 13 year old mentality. But yet it's not 13 year olds that vote or are the consumers of material goods. A hallmark of maturity is accepting responsibility for one's own actions, not blaming it on the availability of an object. Cain would have still killed his brother if there were no stones or sticks under Heaven.

YT2095 - 27-7-2007 at 08:10

a point was brought up by a colleague of mine, and I thought it was quite Valid.

if the firework was labeled clearly as a garden firework, would it have happened?
would you grab a plain cardboard tube with a length of Visco sticking out and lite it? do you know it`s a Roman candle firework (fountain / gerb) or a 30g flash salute!?

I can`t argue with that in all honesty, I really can`t, and if I had to lay money on wether he labeled it or not, my cash would go on the NO, he didn`t.

however, that Still does NOT in ANY WAY excuse the Medias portrayal!

Elawr - 27-7-2007 at 12:31

YT2095, have you gotten any follow-up regarding your friend's case? Were any formal charges made against them? I hope the investigation easily confirms complete absence of any criminal intent on their part. Of course, the presence of a simple pyrotechnic at a residence by itself would present no danger to anyone, but these are dangerous times. I hope the authority figures will quickly clear your friends and then leave them be.

Rosco Bodine - 27-7-2007 at 12:35

Rapists must necessarily use penises in the commision of their crime , and body orifices are proven to lead to victimization by those dirty rapist animals .....
therefore it is resolved by the legislature a twofold
solution as an effective crime prevention measure ...
that all penises shall be removed forthwith ,
and all bodily orifices sewn shut , in the interest of
preserving a civilized society

unionised - 28-7-2007 at 06:36

"We are to ask ourselves WHY are guns "bad"? because they are painted as having a singular purpose, that of a destructive nature. That is done as a political agenda, as logic tells use that no object is evil in and of itself."

There might be a reason for people portraying guns as having a singular purpose; it's because guns are, and always were, built explicitly for the purpose of killing people. All other products that have that property like landmines are debarred by civilised society except under rigidly defined conditions- generally conditions of war.
The gun plainly isnt evil, but its design purpose is.
Fireworks are used for having a laugh but they can be perverted to other , unacceptable, uses. That's why they are controled.

Rosco Bodine - 28-7-2007 at 09:24

I would strongly differ with the "designed evil purpose" argument for weaponry . Security and defense purposes
are not "evil" and neither are hunting for necessity or sport or other recreational weapons sport "evil" .

And even if you run with the "designed evil purpose" argument ....the lesser of two evils argument will alone
nullify any weight that such an argument had , even *if*
the premise was valid ....which it isn't .

It is the manner and purpose of use which defines the nature of something but only in a limited context to those circumstances . You can turn a log in the fireplace with an iron poker ....or you can bash somebody over the head with it , and the nature of the object isn't definitive of goodness or evil ....but rather the context of use , the circumstances .

Even landmines have legitimate use if there is no better way to secure an area . Being civilized has nothing to do with it .

The matter of fireworks being controlled is mostly due to
the ignorance and carelessness of drunks and children who kill and maim themselves and/or others by mishandling and misusing the materials and creating a safety issue . Responsible use doesn't create the statistics that generate the outcry "there ought to be a law" which then leads to exactly that . It's more like a growing number of idiots create problems for the rest of us who aren't idiots ....but get impacted by the same ban ,
and all the generalizations which are unfairly applied ,
as the rain falls on both the unrighteous and the righteous alike .

12AX7 - 28-7-2007 at 10:28

Quote:

Originally posted by unionised
it's because guns are, and always were, built explicitly for the purpose of killing people.

Even my hunting shotgun?

Try again.

Quote:

Originally posted by Rosco Bodine
I would strongly differ with the "designed evil purpose" argument for weaponry . Security and defense purposes
are not "evil"

Are you defending the Nazis, then? I know you don't realize it (or won't admit to it), but Hitler had full public support because Germany believed there was a paramount "security and defense" concern. Hitler was merely a vessel for this perception, taking it to its logical conclusion, which is what we now know him for.

My point is that, in the same way as thousands of other leaders, of hundreds of other countries, over thousands of years of history, Hitler used "security and defense" in the exact same way as you now defend the use of guns. And now you see (if not for your prejudice blinding you to this argument) why such generalization is a very heinous thing indeed.

Quote:

It is the manner and purpose of use which defines the nature of something but only in a limited context to those circumstances.

Ah, hmm...well, what about.. oh, I don't even need to bring it up, you did below:

Quote:

Even landmines have legitimate use [colon?] if there is no better way to secure an area.

Ah, so if landmines aren't inately "evil" (to use a subjective term), in particular in at least the situation that an area must be secured, then what about when the area is secured? What about fifty years down the road when, not only has the area been secured, but borders and allegiances have also shifted and the area becomes, say, farmland? And now what, of the innocent civilians who step on this field? Are they dying legitimately for the security of the area they stood -- sorry, were standing -- on?

Quote:

The matter of fireworks being controlled is mostly due to
the ignorance and carelessness of drunks and children who kill and maim themselves and/or others by mishandling and misusing the materials and creating a safety issue.

And now having said all this, it's remarkable that fireworks are regulated far more than guns are in this country. Guns kill far more people, accidentially, than fireworks do (wish I had a cite offhand, but I'm sure it's true), even including disfiguring injuries.

Quote:

Responsible use doesn't create the statistics that generate the outcry "there ought to be a law" which then leads to exactly that . It's more like a growing number of idiots create problems for the rest of us who aren't idiots ....

...So, your point being... oh, I know, ban idiocy!

I wonder how that would go over.

Sorry, you can't legislate idiocy. (<-- Ooh, and my mind is swarming with snide comments and jokes that follow directly from this sentence. Like, "all politicians would be legislating themselves out of their jobs!"; "Rosco would vote for this, in turn voting himself out of society"; etc.)

Tim

Rosco Bodine - 28-7-2007 at 10:37

You are so obliquely and irrelevantly perceptive , maybe that accounts for your difficulty with the hardware logic involved in dedicated microprocessor based devices where you can't just spin things any old way you like .

12AX7 - 28-7-2007 at 14:27

What did that have to do with.... well, anything?

froot - 29-7-2007 at 11:24

Any updates YT2095?

YT2095 - 30-7-2007 at 00:00

no, not heard anything yet, and it`s unlikely things will change until November sometime.

if all goes well, he`ll have his computer and stuff back by then and maybe even let you know himself on here

I doubt he`ll be getting a Chemistry set for Christmas though