Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Monthly or bi-monthly "exotic" group chemical/reagent purchase - w/re-shipping to members

RogueRose - 13-8-2018 at 19:45

So one of the more common threads on these forums is people saying that they can't find compound/element XXX, or that it is difficult to obtain b/c the seller want's ID, permit & biz licence (when not LEGALLY required), pricing is outrageous, quantities are limited, etc.

I'm thinking about taking a survey of what compounds/reagents/elements people are interested in and then set up some kind of schedule where a purchase is made every 30-60 days (1-2 months).

Here are some of the compounds I am looking at putting in for discussion

Nitromethane
Nitroethane
Red-Al
LiAlHydride (LAH)
SodiumBoroHydride
SodiumAluminumHydride - NaAlH4
Sodium hydride
Pyridine
Benzene
Phenol
Sodium
Potassium
Magnesium (range of size of turnings to powder)
Al Powder
CaC2
NaBr
KI
KMnO4
Chlorates & Perchlorates
Diethyl Ether
DCM
Formaldehyde
Bulk acids (citric, oxalic, salycilic, sulfamic, acetic, Formic, Boric, etc)
P2O5 P4O10
PCl3, PCl5
Thiosulfates (ammonium, sodium, potassium)
Metabisulfites
Nitrates, nitrites
Strong Acids -H2SO4, HCl, HNO3, H3PO4, HBr, HClO4, HBrO3, HI,
Stong Bases - LiOH, RbOH, CsOH, Sr(OH)2,
Ba(OH)2, KOH, NaOH, Ca(OH)2
Solvents, Alcohols, etc
Lewis Acids & Bases (usually in anhydrous form).


I've spent over a week of time researching sellers on Alibaba and some other sites looking for sellers that have a gold rating, high sales (volume & $$) and have been in business a minimum of 4-5 years and I've bookmarked hundreds related to specific chemicals. Many offer samples, especially if buying another product they are willing to offer a very nice size sample (enough to be split amount many people involved in a group purchase).


So what I'm thinking is that we somehow decide what are the top 20 items that people are looking for and then make a list of the top 12 items. If any seller sells 2, then those 2 would be grouped together for one purchase (easier on shipping & payment). The purchases could be monthly (say the 5th of each month) or 1-2 items could be listed every 2 months.

Obviously there would be an incentive to get more people chipping in to get a larger quantity, so the price comes down, so ordering could go something like this:

Goal $800 for 1KG LiAlH4 it could be broken down to something like this:

>10g = $2.50/g
11-20g = $2/g
21-50 = $1.50/g
50<100g = $1.25/g
101g-500g = $1/g
500g+ $.80/g

I'd have to work out the exact number breakdown for the price distribution for something like the above, but that is pretty close. It allows people to get the product fairly cheaply for a small amount and a great price for a larger amount.

Let's say that $1200 is collected for a total amount of 1Kg of the product. The extra $ could be put towards buying a larger amount (1.5kg in this example) and the total quantity could be split up evenly as per the % of money put towards the purchase, do everyone would basically be getting about 50% more than what they ordered. Or that extra $ could be put towards the next order of whatever chemical - or some other arrangement - suggestions welcome. Possibly the extra $ would be put towards buying packaging and for shipping for the order.

The chemical would be received and re-packaged for each of the orders, and it may require a set amount per order for shipping and packaging of the chemical which can be taken into account before ordering.

elementcollector1 - 13-8-2018 at 19:59

I would think tert-butanol deserves a spot as well (although maybe it's technically covered in 'alcohols'?) Most people only need a few mL at the most for catalyst reasons, which makes buying 100mL a little annoying. Whether that's in the top 20, though, would of course depend on others' input.

Extra money should go towards shipping costs first, as those are the most immediate problem I can spot with this setup. You should also look into which shipping services will willingly cover the chemicals on this list, as an ongoing operation is much less legally tenable than a one-time event. As usual, excessive paperwork will save you future pains.

The last thing I want to say about this is that not everyone can keep up with a monthly, let alone a bimonthly buying schedule - income changes, demand fluctuates and things that were once wanted may fall by the wayside and be forgotten. I would seriously consider making it yearly to avoid both frivolous decisions and changing circumstances - that way people would have time to plan out exactly what they wanted.

Don't let any of the above discourage you from doing this - I think it's a great idea that should have been done sooner. (In fact, I recall helping with something similar way back when with a certain pottery supply store - it was fun).

Texium - 13-8-2018 at 20:53

While you have good intentions, I think the most successful group buys have been the spontaneous sort when someone has stumbled upon a once-in-a-lifetime deal and cared to share it with others, or when someone needed a particular reagent very badly and got others on board with splitting the bill. I could give you a huge list of stuff that I would like to have in my lab, but would I necessarily be prepared to lay down $50 or more for one of those items next month? Hell nah.

If there's something that YOU really need and you find it for a good price, by all means, start a group buy thread like people have been doing for years. You'll probably find other interested buyers. Trying to make it into an organized monthly thing would be like diverting a river to a drinking fountain.

RogueRose - 13-8-2018 at 21:08

I agree with all of what you the two of you have said and I hesitated offering monthly purchase and thought even something like every 3-4 or 6 months as well.

Sulaiman - 14-8-2018 at 00:52

In th original post there are at least eight line items that should not be shipped to UK
due to Explosives and Poisons Precursor regulations.
Other countries will have their own regulations forbidding various chemicals.

It is these chemicals that you will most likely be asked to supply,
so do you want to emulate Blogfast25 ?

Heptylene - 14-8-2018 at 05:38

What happened with blogfast25?

I must say that I personally wouldn't risk shipping some of those reagents to anyone. Nitromethane, nitroethane, LAH, PCl5 etc. in particular are very suspicious due to their use in manufacture of drugs and, for the last one, chemical weapons. And you would need to package them properly and all that.

Sulaiman - 14-8-2018 at 06:22

Quote: Originally posted by Heptylene  
What happened with blogfast25?


https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=72...
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=71575
https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=oxfordchems...

Loptr - 14-8-2018 at 06:29

Quote: Originally posted by Heptylene  
What happened with blogfast25?

I must say that I personally wouldn't risk shipping some of those reagents to anyone. Nitromethane, nitroethane, LAH, PCl5 etc. in particular are very suspicious due to their use in manufacture of drugs and, for the last one, chemical weapons. And you would need to package them properly and all that.


This is part of the problem. Most reagents could be used to make things that are either illegal, not socially accepted, or socially questionable, even if only in a round about way.

I think we should probably start group buys that are limited to a certain country to help reduce liabilities. A person is more likely to be knowledgeable of the legality of something in their own country than in several other countries involved in a group buy.

Also, realize that if something happens, this sort of thing could possibly be seen as conspiracy for diversion. I don't know if you have to knowingly be involved??

JJay - 14-8-2018 at 08:05

I really like this idea. It might require a chemical handler's license in some states.

There are Know Your Customer laws for businesses handling DEA List I and List II chemicals in the U.S., and I think those apply (fair or not) under international treaties to people selling to people in the U.S. Of course, a little chemical co-op wouldn't qualify as a DEA regulated entity unless the DEA thought it did, and they'd say something or at least send a few letters before breaking down doors and carting off the organizer's 100 kilograms of copper sulfate as evidence.

Private chemical sales between hobbyists are almost entirely unregulated as long as they don't involve controlled substances. That stated, it's probably not feasible for the forum to completely sanction something like a chemical of the month club.

Vosoryx - 14-8-2018 at 08:23

I think doing it by country makes sense in general, no need for international dangerous goods shipping. Plus it might be cheaper.
But it would exclude some smaller countries...

Sulaiman - 14-8-2018 at 08:33

I have seen people do bulk buys based on the word of others that they will buy,
then find themselves stuck with excess stuff because some people do not keep to their word.
So, I suggest that whatever scheme you adopt ... cash BEFORE order.

RogueRose - 14-8-2018 at 11:49

I had originally planned for either doing it by country or to limit purchases of various (those restricted by law) from countries where it isn't legal.

I was originally thinking to keeping it only for the US and possibly Canada and the UK and maybe Aus, then once I figure out the rest of the laws for various countries in the EU and elsewere, then I could open it up to there.

I think that there are many countries where there is very little restrictions on chemicals, maybe those in south/central america some Asian countries and eastern European countries.

I guess there are some chemicals on that list that maybe a little questionable, I didn't really take into account anything that is listed, controlled, etc, simply those that were expensive or difficult to obtain.


I've talked to a number of different retailers in the US and they have been willing to drop-ship chemicals. Example - if someone ordered anywhere from 1qt, 1gal, 4gal, 5gal + of something like DCM, toluene, fermaldehyde, methanol, etc, they were willing to accept payment for the total purchase (say total amount is 55 gallons of product X), and then ship each quantity individually to the intended recipient - and the company listed as the "seller" would be the individual ordering the 55 gallons complete with their provided contact info, or the retailers address but with a provided name of the person ordering. The pricing for a number of the places was that of the larger quantity, but broken down percentage wise of the amount shipped per individual.

So if a 55 gallon order of XXX was placed for say $550, then a person receiving 10 gallons would pay $100 (plus shipping for that amount), or would pay $10 for 1 gallon. The price for buying 10 gallons individually was $189 and 1 gallon was just under $32 for one product, so there is a significant incentive to get a group buy especially with distributors such as this who are willing to package for individuals and ship directly.

The only thing I'm wondering with the above scenario is whether forum members would want the distributor to have their shipping information.

I've also found a number of sellers in China who are more than willing to do break up a large order (say 1KG) of a product and ship to many different recipients - all for the 1KG price - as long as shipping is covered. Most have requested that the individual recipients place a review of the product once they receive it (hopefully positive). I think this helps them a lot, especially if they have something like 20 recipients for a 1KG purchase, that means they get 20 positive reviews which can mean a lot for some sellers.

For those that don't know, listed and watched chemicals aren't illegal to own and in many cases to even sell. It is a very odd way of making some chemicals possibly trouble for users, especially things like acetone, toluene, MEK, KMnO4, HCl, H2SO4 etc. I don't think selling any of these would get you in trouble though I'm in the process of reading the DEA laws, bylaws, etc

Loptr - 14-8-2018 at 12:00

I do think there is potential for trouble with importing Listed chemicals.

JJay - 14-8-2018 at 12:01

I would suggest avoiding DEA listed chemicals like toluene.

RogueRose - 14-8-2018 at 13:27

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
I would suggest avoiding DEA listed chemicals like toluene.


Really? Something that can be bought in big box stores is really that closely watched by the DEA? I can't believe that. I'm not sure what it is used for illicitly, and don't really want to know to be honest, but I know that it has more legitimate uses than I can count.

I'm not saying you aren't right and I'm not dismissing your concern, just think it is odd how it is listed. I think it is in the same class as acetone, which also has more legitimate uses than can be listed.

The DEA is going to find one day that their draconian scare tactics are going to come back with horrendous consequenses. One prime example is the outbreak of these horrific synthetic designer drugs, "bath salts", spice, flakka, fentynal family and many, many others. I suggest that they are responsible for more carnage & damage than all the wars the US has fought in since WWII. This can't be hidden for much longer and there is going to be serious backlash for these actions when someone actually compiles the ramifications of their actions and quantifies the people hurt and the cost to society - all in an attempt to stem the tide of questionably illegal drugs which are very well known/understood medically and only to be replaced with unknown life altering poisons. /rant

RogueRose - 14-8-2018 at 13:39

I have obtained the licensing documents for fireworks and explosive manufacturing/possession from the BATFE and it looks like the cost is $200 for the initial license and then anywhere from $50 to $100 for renewal (and I don't think it is every year, but I may be mistaken). From what I saw, there is less restrictions/cost to be a seller of materials for fireworks/explosives than it costs to be an independent licensed/permitted manufacturer/user of such things.

On a side note, I know that some companies (very large chemical suppliers) sell list 1 chemicals to home businesses without any background check and only required a "business name" (can be the buyers name - like John doe chem research) and a SSN (in place of an EIN or Tax ID # - when the business is a sole proprietorship operating under the owners name - no business name is legally required). One person I know bought 3 15 gallon drums of a listed chemical with nothing more than a phone call, credit card and personal details.

Now I'm not sure if that person was watched afterwards, but they didn't sell it or use it illicitly (and didn't have any other illicit operations) but there were no problems, knocks on the door or "inquiries" afterwards and this wasn't too long ago.

i'm wondering if the attention the buyer draws is more dependent upon the buyers "ties" (known associations, possible criminal past or otherwise, current business dealings, etc) or if it is more about the specific chemical. I think a lot of it has to do with the political situation at the time.

clearly_not_atara - 14-8-2018 at 14:11

Definitely look up every chemical surveillance list in your country that you can find before you ship anything to anyone. Don't ship any dehydrating agents except triphenylphosphine.

VSEPR_VOID - 14-8-2018 at 14:41

I am selling sodium metal on etsy. 100 grams for 45 dollars. I ship to the US for free.

DavidJR - 14-8-2018 at 16:35

Quote: Originally posted by VSEPR_VOID  
I am selling sodium metal on etsy. 100 grams for 45 dollars. I ship to the US for free.


Etsy seems like a very odd choice for selling chemicals. And I have to say I am entertained by the fact that you seem to be selling poppers.

JJay - 14-8-2018 at 20:16

Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
I would suggest avoiding DEA listed chemicals like toluene.


Really? Something that can be bought in big box stores is really that closely watched by the DEA? I can't believe that. I'm not sure what it is used for illicitly, and don't really want to know to be honest, but I know that it has more legitimate uses than I can count.

I'm not saying you aren't right and I'm not dismissing your concern, just think it is odd how it is listed. I think it is in the same class as acetone, which also has more legitimate uses than can be listed.



Acetone is in fact a List II chemical. We can buy both acetone and toluene by the gallon, but there will be questions asked. Purchases above the threshold quantities have questions asked, and answering is mandatory.

Oh, and there *are* things that people would like to buy without having their names on them, but there are actually laws against evading recordkeeping requirements with List I and List II chemicals. Intent must be proven. There's no law against ordering, for example, a kilogram of gallic acid, with a fake name or through a business front, even though it might be suspicious, but if you do that with a large drum of toluene (and I'm not saying you would; you seem honest), you can be arrested.

The reason I mention this is that if a buyer indicates that he/she does not want his/her personal information conveyed to the seller, that might be interpreted as intent to evade reporting requirements with List I and List II chemicals.
Code:
21 U.S. Code § 841(c) Offenses involving listed chemicals Any person who knowingly or intentionally— (1) possesses a listed chemical with intent to manufacture a controlled substance except as authorized by this subchapter; (2) possesses or distributes a listed chemical knowing, or having reasonable cause to believe, that the listed chemical will be used to manufacture a controlled substance except as authorized by this subchapter; or (3) with the intent of causing the evasion of the recordkeeping or reporting requirements of section 830 of this title, or the regulations issued under that section, receives or distributes a reportable amount of any listed chemical in units small enough so that the making of records or filing of reports under that section is not required; shall be fined in accordance with title 18 or imprisoned not more than 20 years in the case of a violation of paragraph (1) or (2) involving a list I chemical or not more than 10 years in the case of a violation of this subsection other than a violation of paragraph (1) or (2) involving a list I chemical, or both.




[Edited on 15-8-2018 by JJay]

RogueRose - 14-8-2018 at 23:47

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
I would suggest avoiding DEA listed chemicals like toluene.


Really? Something that can be bought in big box stores is really that closely watched by the DEA? I can't believe that. I'm not sure what it is used for illicitly, and don't really want to know to be honest, but I know that it has more legitimate uses than I can count.

I'm not saying you aren't right and I'm not dismissing your concern, just think it is odd how it is listed. I think it is in the same class as acetone, which also has more legitimate uses than can be listed.



Acetone is in fact a List II chemical. We can buy both acetone and toluene by the gallon, but there will be questions asked. Purchases above the threshold quantities have questions asked, and answering is mandatory.

Oh, and there *are* things that people would like to buy without having their names on them, but there are actually laws against evading recordkeeping requirements with List I and List II chemicals. Intent must be proven. There's no law against ordering, for example, a kilogram of gallic acid, with a fake name or through a business front, even though it might be suspicious, but if you do that with a large drum of toluene (and I'm not saying you would; you seem honest), you can be arrested.

The reason I mention this is that if a buyer indicates that he/she does not want his/her personal information conveyed to the seller, that might be interpreted as intent to evade reporting requirements with List I and List II chemicals.
Code:
21 U.S. Code § 841(c) Offenses involving listed chemicals Any person who knowingly or intentionally— (1) possesses a listed chemical with intent to manufacture a controlled substance except as authorized by this subchapter; (2) possesses or distributes a listed chemical knowing, or having reasonable cause to believe, that the listed chemical will be used to manufacture a controlled substance except as authorized by this subchapter; or (3) with the intent of causing the evasion of the recordkeeping or reporting requirements of section 830 of this title, or the regulations issued under that section, receives or distributes a reportable amount of any listed chemical in units small enough so that the making of records or filing of reports under that section is not required; shall be fined in accordance with title 18 or imprisoned not more than 20 years in the case of a violation of paragraph (1) or (2) involving a list I chemical or not more than 10 years in the case of a violation of this subsection other than a violation of paragraph (1) or (2) involving a list I chemical, or both.

[Edited on 15-8-2018 by JJay]


Thanks for the link to the US Code.

Well I'll have to argue with the part about "there will be questions" when buying 1 gallon of acetone or toluene. I worked at both lowes and HD and had a friend at Sherwin williams and at times I would work the register at Lowes or HD and there are 6 chems on the list (3 solvents, 2 acids, 1 oxidizer) that were never questioned and people could have bought 10 gallon jugs at a time. If the person seemed extremely suspicious (maybe with mention of "the bomb" or "will be totally destroyed", "total destruction" or other things surrounding "terrorism") then ID may be asked for but I don't think there would be anything else done.

I've seen 90-120 gallons of HCl being purchased at pool opening season without question. Had to take the pallet to the truck on the lift.

I'm wondering if you are getting questioned when you buy things like this whether you might be putting off a "nervous" vibe or something else. The downside about education in a field like this is that even with completely honest intentions, you know the history of other people with the same intentions who got shafted, and that may translate to some unwanted behaviors, known or not. Other than that, I would say that you are trying to scare people if you are telling them to expect questions with the purchase of a gallon of Acetone, MEK, or Toluene, which I have NEVER seen once, let alone for 5 gallon containers. I guess it could be a regional thing as well, which I suspect has a higher possibility of being the case than you intentionally trying to scare people.

Now reselling the stuff, I can't say I have experience with that, so I won't discuss issues regarding that ATM.

JJay - 15-8-2018 at 01:04

Nervous vibe? Let me put it to you this way: Most people don't even notice that they are being asked for personally identifying information at checkout. The kiosk at Lowes asks you for your email address and your customer account information every time you check out. Unless you pay cash, there is a record of who made the transaction, and that information is retained for a considerable period of time. Any time I've bought sulfuric acid or toluene, I've been asked something like, "Do you have an account?" or, "Are you a rewards card member?" or, "Are you a club member?" These are literally attempts to log your purchase history and associate it with your identity. I have little doubt that suspicious purchases are reviewed.

In my experience, Sherwin Williams requires that you give them your name to purchase anything. I don't have much experience with pool stores, but I find it unlikely that anyone was able to purchase that much hydrochloric acid without signing anything.

VSEPR_VOID - 15-8-2018 at 02:37

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
Nervous vibe? Let me put it to you this way: Most people don't even notice that they are being asked for personally identifying information at checkout. The kiosk at Lowes asks you for your email address and your customer account information every time you check out. Unless you pay cash, there is a record of who made the transaction, and that information is retained for a considerable period of time. Any time I've bought sulfuric acid or toluene, I've been asked something like, "Do you have an account?" or, "Are you a rewards card member?" or, "Are you a club member?" These are literally attempts to log your purchase history and associate it with your identity. I have little doubt that suspicious purchases are reviewed.

In my experience, Sherwin Williams requires that you give them your name to purchase anything. I don't have much experience with pool stores, but I find it unlikely that anyone was able to purchase that much hydrochloric acid without signing anything.


Just lie and pay cash.

JJay - 15-8-2018 at 03:03

Quote: Originally posted by VSEPR_VOID  
Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
Nervous vibe? Let me put it to you this way: Most people don't even notice that they are being asked for personally identifying information at checkout. The kiosk at Lowes asks you for your email address and your customer account information every time you check out. Unless you pay cash, there is a record of who made the transaction, and that information is retained for a considerable period of time. Any time I've bought sulfuric acid or toluene, I've been asked something like, "Do you have an account?" or, "Are you a rewards card member?" or, "Are you a club member?" These are literally attempts to log your purchase history and associate it with your identity. I have little doubt that suspicious purchases are reviewed.

In my experience, Sherwin Williams requires that you give them your name to purchase anything. I don't have much experience with pool stores, but I find it unlikely that anyone was able to purchase that much hydrochloric acid without signing anything.


Just lie and pay cash.


HAHAHAHAHA. "Yeah, I'm buying the toluene for my business, Jerky Beef."

I am in no way trying to discourage anyone from doing group buys, and there are lots of interesting chemicals that aren't governed by a bunch of arcana.

draculic acid69 - 21-8-2018 at 18:43

This is a great idea but,it would be harder to do legally than it seems.

Maybe you could set up a kickstarter page for each chemical and when that is reached the order is placed and orders are sent to each contributer.Also maybe the USA should have its own group and everywhere else could be another group.
I know it sounds silly but if say your raising money for 5 kg of LAH which is coming from china going to America then being redistributed to Canada aus nz uk and everywhere else the dea is going to call that conspiracy aren't they.even if small amounts are only for hobbyists.I'm not from the US but I watch 'cops' and the dea won't be any different.even if proven to be used for legal innocent reasons they get off on kicking your door down, dragging you thru the court system and letting you spend tens of thousands of your own $$$ which you will never see again just to prove your innocence. dea,patriot act,anti terrorism task forces,chemical diversion task forces and stigmatizm towards hobbyist chemistry is all of the reasons I think group purchases involving any person or entity in the US would-be best left out or made to have there own group.buying a list one or two chemical in the US will be a case of guilty until proven innocent.you ever try explaining to a cop how something innocent isn't going to to be used in a harmful way.nothing against Americans but there government agencies and laws are just over the top.just my two cents.

[Edited on 22-8-2018 by draculic acid69]

RogueRose - 22-8-2018 at 01:48

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
Nervous vibe? Let me put it to you this way: Most people don't even notice that they are being asked for personally identifying information at checkout. The kiosk at Lowes asks you for your email address and your customer account information every time you check out. Unless you pay cash, there is a record of who made the transaction, and that information is retained for a considerable period of time. Any time I've bought sulfuric acid or toluene, I've been asked something like, "Do you have an account?" or, "Are you a rewards card member?" or, "Are you a club member?" These are literally attempts to log your purchase history and associate it with your identity. I have little doubt that suspicious purchases are reviewed.

In my experience, Sherwin Williams requires that you give them your name to purchase anything. I don't have much experience with pool stores, but I find it unlikely that anyone was able to purchase that much hydrochloric acid without signing anything.



That is a good point about the "bonus card" thing. The story about the HCl was a guy was cleaning a local country club's mile long driveway, walk way, pool deck and pool and he took every last gallon we had (stacked on a pallet). He walked up to the outside register and paid cash (he was a mennonite farmer I believe) and I REALLY doubt the 16yr old hassled this 55yr old guy. I know they have discretion as to whether to ask for "formal ID" which this guy might not have even had.

You are right though, they do probe for that stuff. I was thinking you meant "SHOW ID" like buy cigs or beer.

JJay - 22-8-2018 at 02:23

Eh, I'm not really sure what to think about that. I think that if you buy a 55-pound sack of tannic acid and divvy it up 5 ways, there's nothing to worry about.