Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Problems with Lithium Batteries

I preferably would but I dont have access to any right now. Ive decided that most of the oxidation on the bottom is from when I was unwraping it from the other stufd (the carbon disulfide got real damn hot) and some from air bubbles that got stuck underneath the lithium when I put it under the mineral oil. Also, is it possible that the air in the jar could completely react with the exposed lithium and pull a vacuum in the jar? It wouldnt be a full vacuum because of other non reactive stuff like nitrogen, but it could pose a problem.

Keep in mind that lithium is the only alkali metal that also reacts with nitrogen, so it cannot be considered inert in this instance. TBH the best way to store the lithium would be in the cells it comes in, and only extracting it when needed. Here is a way to get out all the lithium in under a minute:

The batteries has a small indent that goes all the way around near the positive terminal. Using a pair of garden shears (regular scissors might work as well), cut off the positive cap in one swift move. The core will be exposed at this point. Next, use a pair of needle nose pliers to grip the center of the rolled of core and pull hard. The layers will telescope out and with enough pulling come free entirely. Separate out the lithium from the other layers, and you're done! No mess, no fuss. (Keep in mine that you will likely short out the battery once you cut off the top, and you can feel it getting warm, but this is perfectly alright as long as you act reasonably quickly. I estimate you have around 5 minutes before the casing gets too hot to hold and you are better chucking it out the door.)

Lithium shelf life

Sulaiman - 30-7-2018 at 07:29

This thread reminded me that I have a part box (20 cells remaining) of Energizer +123 cells, CR17345.
Each cell has a date code 03-2020
The label on the box reads:-
Date of manufacture : February 2011
Not to be stored beyond : February 2017 (which is why I have them)

I have two simple questions

What liquid can be used to store lithium ?
(I don't understand toluene - the lithium should float ?)

Given that the cells are not new,
which is more likely to be a 'better' source of lithium as time goes bye,
future removal from un-modified cells, or immediate removal and storage

Attachment: 123.pdf (248kB)
This file has been downloaded 407 times

Abromination - 30-7-2018 at 08:14

Most oils that do not saponify (spelt that wrong) on contact with lithium. It is very common to store it under minneral oil (although it floats because lithium is way less dense) but it will sink under toluene, which is not reactive with alkali metals and just a better choice. Just be aware of its flammability.

The newer the batteries, the higher quality the lithium will be. But, since you have so many it would probably be worth extracting the lithium. Jusy be aware that it is extremely difficult and time consuming. I imagine that after a while you would get the hang of it. Wear gloves and goggles and work outside or in a fume hood as the fumes are really bad. If the battery shorts chuck it outside and atay away until it cools. It could easily explode. Immediately once removal put the lithium under mineral oil or toluene and make sure if you use mineral oil to deoxygenate it under a vacuum.

Dan Vizine - 30-7-2018 at 09:31

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10g-High-Purity-99-9-Pure-Lithium-L...

10 g high purity Li free shipping.....$7.69

Just sayin'

Abromination - 30-7-2018 at 11:10

Quote: Originally posted by Dan Vizine

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10g-High-Purity-99-9-Pure-Lithium-L...

10 g high purity Li free shipping.....$7.69

Just sayin'

There certainly is a place for buying, but if you are like me and have a bit of time and enough old batteries its worth your time. 7.69 is the price of a good pyrex flourence flask I bought a few weeks ago. Plus, we all know how buying elements of off of ebay can go...

morganbw - 31-7-2018 at 10:59

Most oils that do not saponify (spelt that wrong) on contact with lithium. It is very common to store it under minneral oil (although it floats because lithium is way less dense) but it will sink under toluene, which is not reactive with alkali metals and just a better choice. Just be aware of its flammability.

The newer the batteries, the higher quality the lithium will be. But, since you have so many it would probably be worth extracting the lithium. Jusy be aware that it is extremely difficult and time consuming. I imagine that after a while you would get the hang of it. Wear gloves and goggles and work outside or in a fume hood as the fumes are really bad. If the battery shorts chuck it outside and atay away until it cools. It could easily explode. Immediately once removal put the lithium under mineral oil or toluene and make sure if you use mineral oil to deoxygenate it under a vacuum.

I have to smile at this post, thank you for that. Looking at the first post in this thread tells me you have advanced much. Congrats
I may actually use some of your advice.

Abromination - 3-8-2018 at 17:32

Quote: Originally posted by morganbw

I have to smile at this post, thank you for that. Looking at the first post in this thread tells me you have advanced much. Congrats
I may actually use some of your advice.

Thank you. I feel like I do often. It was more the batteries that were troubling me than the lithium itself as I have worked with it before but with larger quantities I have certainly learned more.

Also do be very careful with the toluene as a toluene and lithium fire could be catastrophic for your lab (or you). NileRed demonstrated this with potassium.

MrHomeScientist - 4-8-2018 at 06:59

It is very common to store it under minneral oil (although it floats because lithium is way less dense) but it will sink under toluene, which is not reactive with alkali metals and just a better choice.

Density of lithium: 0.534 g/cm³
Density of toluene: 0.87 g/cm³

Lithium will float in toluene. To my knowledge, there is no solvent inert to lithium that it will not float in.

Rodley - 4-8-2018 at 13:10

I could swear I've read somewhere else that lithium floats on toluene. But after double checking those numbers I see that you're 100% right, MrHome Scientist. I guess that's just one of the misinformation that's floating around. No pun intended.

happyfooddance - 4-8-2018 at 20:48

Also, mineral oil can have a small (but not insignificant) amount of moisture which will also of course react with Li. Better than a vacuum is a vacuum with heat and stirring (120°C should work). Or you could place it in an evaporating dish in an oven @ 200-225°C for a few hours. Be careful because mineral oil is flammable at this temp.

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist

To my knowledge, there is no solvent inert to lithium that it will not float in.

Paraffin wax, petroleum "jelly".

[Edited on 8-5-2018 by happyfooddance]

MrHomeScientist - 5-8-2018 at 17:13

Paraffin wax's density is about 0.9 g/cm³, so it would still float if it were liquid. It's solid at room temperature, though, so that's kind of a different situation. Perhaps I should have said 'liquid', but I figured 'solvent' covered that.
You could also store it under an inert gas, of course, which is what I do with mine (under argon).

happyfooddance - 5-8-2018 at 17:52

"Solvent" also covers things that are solid at room temperature, like paraffin wax. Sometimes I have to warm my acetic acid to get it out of the bottle in the winter, I still think of it as a solvent.
Even things that are gas at room temperature are commonly used as solvents (CO2, NH3, and countless others). I have no idea why you would think parrafin wax would be excluded from being considered a solvent because of its melting point. Tert-butanol, anyone?

Also, if someone can't figure out how to manipulate the melting point of paraffin to get their lithium to stay under the surface, they probably shouldn't be playing with lithium anyway, for their safety.

[Edited on 8-6-2018 by happyfooddance]

Herr Haber - 6-8-2018 at 03:13

Err, paraffin wax a solvent ?

It's an interesting idea but then how do you clean your lithium from the paraffin ?
I dont doubt it can be done, just unsure how messy and efficient it'll be.

happyfooddance - 6-8-2018 at 07:05

Err, paraffin wax a solvent ?

It's an interesting idea but then how do you clean your lithium from the paraffin ?
I dont doubt it can be done, just unsure how messy and efficient it'll be.

Rinse it in warm xylene. You can use a small brush to get the nooks and crannies as well as any oxidation layer.

I still don't know why anyone is shocked at the idea of wax as a solvent...

Abromination - 8-8-2018 at 20:40

Err, paraffin wax a solvent ?

Of course parrafin wax can be used as a solvent, it is used as one industrialy. Not a bad idea for storing lithium, as the lithium could be pushed under the hot liquid parrafin and the parrifin would hold it under when it solidifies . Just be careful not to light your lithium on fire.

symboom - 8-8-2018 at 21:22

lithium extraction i did the same as the OP a couple years ago also some button cells have lithium metal knife cuts like clay. The botton cells can even be opened with nail clipers and much easier to open especially if you would rather work on small scale

[Edited on 9-8-2018 by symboom]

Mr. Rogers - 9-8-2018 at 02:27

Why are the Energizer Li cells 1.8V? Most (all?) other Li cells are right around 3V.

Mr. Rogers - 9-8-2018 at 02:32

Err, paraffin wax a solvent ?

It's an interesting idea but then how do you clean your lithium from the paraffin ?
I dont doubt it can be done, just unsure how messy and efficient it'll be.

In British English sometimes kerosene is called "paraffin" and Americans confuse this for the wax. I'm almost certain this is what's meant by keeping Li in paraffin.

First attempt at Li from +123 Cell

Sulaiman - 9-8-2018 at 03:35

LOOK ! .... Lithium under oil !

There is a length of glass capillary tubing holding it down

Next time I will try to get a shiny sample

Abromination - 9-8-2018 at 06:51

Why are the Energizer Li cells 1.8V? Most (all?) other Li cells are right around 3V.

Energizer ultimate lithium cells only use the lithium cell to make a longer lasting battery, in this case the 1.5 volt AA, not how much power they put out. Think about it, most people need 1.5 v batteries more than the 3v button batteries. Also, nothing is made to take 3 volts that has a place for a AA battery and vice versa. Essentially (im rambling now, havent had my morning tea) they wantes a better AA battery.

LOOK ! .... Lithium under oil !

There is a length of glass capillary tubing holding it down

Next time I will try to get a shiny sample

That isnt a fatty oil (vegetable, olive, canola oil) is it? Otherwise you have ruined your lithium and turned the oil to soap.

Err, paraffin wax a solvent ?

It's an interesting idea but then how do you clean your lithium from the paraffin ?
I dont doubt it can be done, just unsure how messy and efficient it'll be.

In British English sometimes kerosene is called "paraffin" and Americans confuse this for the wax. I'm almost certain this is what's meant by keeping Li in paraffin.

Both should work, and I do think he meant the wax.

[Edited on 9-8-18 by Abromination]

MrHomeScientist - 9-8-2018 at 07:25

Have you tested to make sure that is lithium? It looks like it sunk in that oil, unless it's stuck in the tube, and that makes me a little skeptical. Congratulations if so!

Abromination - 9-8-2018 at 08:15

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist

Have you tested to make sure that is lithium? It looks like it sunk in that oil, unless it's stuck in the tube, and that makes me a little skeptical. Congratulations if so!

He's holding it down with a glass rod.

Also, that most certainly is vegetable oil. I can see the oil around the lithium saponifying and the lithium falling apart. Also, it doesn't look like you put the oil under vacuum first to remove the oxygen. Bad juju.
If you care for your lithium, remove it now, wash it with toluene (not water, obviously, I did that once not thinking as a beginner) and store it under something that wont turn to soap. It wont even be useful soap, lithium soaps are only used for mechanical lubricant! It also smells like crap.

[Edited on 9-8-18 by Abromination]

[Edited on 9-8-18 by Abromination]

Sulaiman - 9-8-2018 at 09:46

The 'oil' is kerosene, some old partially polymerised stuff that definitely has .
Nothing was pre-prepared, I just did it to see what will be required to do it 'properly'

Most of the corrosion is due to air, I undid the battery under kerosene,
even when oily (keroseney ?) a brief exposure to air blackens the surface.
Most of the foil remained shiny but I exposed the entire foil to air when I rolled it up to fit the test tube.
A little of the corrosion does seem due to 'stuff' in the kerosene.
(aldehydes, water, oxygen, nitrogen ?)

I initially stored the test tube upside down to keep the lithium below the kerosene,
but some small bubbles slowly formed
and I started to imagine a lithium/kerosene rocket

Edit : Corrected the aldehyde comment

[Edited on 10-8-2018 by Sulaiman]

Abromination - 9-8-2018 at 12:14

The 'oil' is kerosene, some old partially polymerised stuff that definitely has some aldehydes based on reaction with NaOH.
Nothing was pre-prepared, I just did it to see what will be required to do it 'properly'

Most of the corrosion is due to air, I undid the battery under kerosene,
even when oily (keroseney ?) a brief exposure to air blackens the surface.
Most of the foil remained shiny but I exposed the entire foil to air when I rolled it up to fit the test tube.
A little of the corrosion does seem due to 'stuff' in the kerosene.
(aldehydes, water, oxygen, nitrogen ?)

I initially stored the test tube upside down to keep the lithium below the kerosene,
but some small bubbles slowly formed
and I started to imagine a lithium/kerosene rocket

Ah, my bad. It looks a lot like lithium under vegetable oil! (Cause I was stupid and did it once.) Im glad that you tried with the kerosene and impressed at your devotion to disassembly under it! I found that you didnt have to untill you got to the point were you unroll the electrodes. Did you experience the rotten eggs smell emitting from the iron disulfide?

Sulaiman - 9-8-2018 at 13:16

I did not notice any smell at all other than kerosene.
(mostly done under kerosene in a 250ml Nalgene beaker, and I tried to avoid exposure
also, my sense of smell is not as acute as it used to be)

Thinking about it, I made another error,
- using some of the kerosene that was contaminated with electrolyte for storage.

If someone wished to use paraffin wax then I think that would be almost as easy to clean off as kerosene,
but the elevated temperature would make corrosion by the atmosphere quicker,
I guess.

P.S. After removed from argon/oil sealed 1oz. sachets I also store sodium under kerosene,
as it seems to be more stable than the vegetable oil that I first tried

[Edited on 9-8-2018 by Sulaiman]

symboom - 9-8-2018 at 18:23

I wraped mine around a copper pipe which gives it weight to push in down in the solvent. I find if i let the metal float it oxidizes quicker.how about butane does any one know if lithium sinks in butane .248 for butane and .543 for density of lithium the butane holds well in a soda bottle

Abromination - 9-8-2018 at 20:12

Quote: Originally posted by symboom

I wraped mine around a copper pipe which gives it weight to push in down in the solvent. I find if i let the metal float it oxidizes quicker.how about butane does any one know if lithium sinks in butane .248 for butane and .543 for density of lithium the butane holds well in a soda bottle

Butane is a gas...

symboom - 9-8-2018 at 20:58

This is embarrassing yes butane is a gas i ment to say methyl ether but i dont know where you would get that

Sorry butane liquifyes onder pressure thats why i mentioned a soda bottle which is designed to hold pressure to keep the buane liquid only way to get the lithium out is by keeping it cold which is useful if you are making lithium hydride.thats how i store mine

Wish DMSO was more volitile and less dense because that would be perfect and it is a compound that is used in lithium batteries

Here is extracting lithium from lithium air button cell batteries
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc-kRTb4Dcw

Just need to hydrogenate the tithium metal
And have lithium hydride

I think powered titanium should help this process and help keep the lithium exposed to the air. And it can form titanium hydride

[Edited on 10-8-2018 by symboom]

[Edited on 10-8-2018 by symboom]

Sulaiman - 10-8-2018 at 01:46

Liquid butane from lighter refill cylinders is fairly easy to contain at RT
I use it as a dielectric in my high voltage probe,
filled once, never leaked, just a screw cap and a rubber seal.

Butt in this case I do not think that it is worth the added risk.

Deathunter88 - 10-8-2018 at 02:38

Why are the Energizer Li cells 1.8V? Most (all?) other Li cells are right around 3V.

I'm pretty sure it's because they use different chemistry, and hence the reason it contains lithium metal rather than just ions.

Abromination - 10-8-2018 at 07:40

Quote: Originally posted by Deathunter88

Why are the Energizer Li cells 1.8V? Most (all?) other Li cells are right around 3V.

I'm pretty sure it's because they use different chemistry, and hence the reason it contains lithium metal rather than just ions.

No, they both do contain lithium metal but one is lithium and i want to say manganese dioxide and ammonium chloride and the 1.8 is carbon disulfide and something else. I don't know maybe both are carbon disulfide. But lithium is in both.

morganbw - 10-8-2018 at 10:48

Quote: Originally posted by Deathunter88

Why are the Energizer Li cells 1.8V? Most (all?) other Li cells are right around 3V.

I'm pretty sure it's because they use different chemistry, and hence the reason it contains lithium metal rather than just ions.

I am not deep into this thread but do be aware that lithium metal batteries vs lithium-ion batteries are two very different beasts.
The first allows you to pull lithium metal out directly, the second means that if you are not a wizard, you will get exactly zero lithium metal.

Abromination - 12-8-2018 at 13:01

Quote: Originally posted by morganbw

Quote: Originally posted by Deathunter88

Why are the Energizer Li cells 1.8V? Most (all?) other Li cells are right around 3V.

I'm pretty sure it's because they use different chemistry, and hence the reason it contains lithium metal rather than just ions.

Good point. I am unfortunately not a wizard. I thought he was talking about the 3v lithium button batteries.

symboom - 12-8-2018 at 15:46

Wow thats alot of inquotes its pure lithium metal you can scrape it off with a screwdriver it acts like clay except when it is on fire.
It is really stuck to the inside casing atleast the casing holds the lithium under mineral oil.
Im surprised others dont use 3v lithium button batterys
Not much lithium but it is a great sample size
nail clipers can be used to pry open lithium button batteries takes some practice but it only takes a few seconds and tge lithium is out.

[Edited on 12-8-2018 by symboom]

Abromination - 12-8-2018 at 16:28

Quote: Originally posted by symboom

Wow thats alot of inquotes its pure lithium metal you can scrape it off with a screwdriver it acts like clay except when it is on fire.
It is really stuck to the inside casing atleast the casing holds the lithium under mineral oil.
Im surprised others dont use 3v lithium button batterys
Not much lithium but it is a great sample size
nail clipers can be used to pry open lithium button batteries takes some practice but it only takes a few seconds and tge lithium is out.

[Edited on 12-8-2018 by symboom]

Button batteries are the first kind I ever dismantled. Agreed, a good sample size.

Sulaiman - 8-11-2018 at 07:19

Although under oil in a test tube with a (not perfectly sealing) stopper,
my lithium sample shown at the top of this page is corroding away

I am glad that I kept the rest of the batteries intact

Would some kind person please suggest an easy interesting use for the
foil from one cell ?
or
a lithium salt suitable for storage and future use ?

fusso - 8-11-2018 at 07:50

Although under oil in a test tube with a (not perfectly sealing) stopper,
my lithium sample shown at the top of this page is corroding away

I am glad that I kept the rest of the batteries intact

Would some kind person please suggest an easy interesting use for the
foil from one cell ?
or
a lithium salt suitable for storage and future use ?

Dismantle the cells just before you need it? Like making LDA, Li alkoxides & RLi?
Or make LiOH/Li2CO3?

CrimsonRed - 8-12-2018 at 20:29

I remember getting some lithium out of a button battery and it was very exciting, I remember looking up the lithium content for each type of button cell and I ended up concluding that CR2032 (contains any where from 0.05g to 0.07g of lithium metal) was the most common and the most cost effective one but recently I found that you could buy a pack of 10 CR2477 (contains 0.25g to 0.30g) for about 6$ on aliexpress which is very cost effective although you do have to wait for like 20-30 days for it to arrive, I might buy it

Ubya - 9-12-2018 at 02:09

Quote: Originally posted by CrimsonRed

I remember getting some lithium out of a button battery and it was very exciting, I remember looking up the lithium content for each type of button cell and I ended up concluding that CR2032 (contains any where from 0.05g to 0.07g of lithium metal) was the most common and the most cost effective one but recently I found that you could buy a pack of 10 CR2477 (contains 0.25g to 0.30g) for about 6$ on aliexpress which is very cost effective although you do have to wait for like 20-30 days for it to arrive, I might buy it

30$ for 1g doesn't seem that cost effective... you can buy it on ebay 15.50$ for 20g

CrimsonRed - 9-12-2018 at 15:18

Well when you get roughly 2.5 to 3 grams for 6$, 6$ for a pack of 10 cells and I've seen a few people who bought lithium from ebay which came oxidized and stuff, also I said It was cost effective when I found out that cr2032 was the cheapest at the time a few years ago as they were the cheapest (I think like 2-3$ for a pack of 10 or something like that) but not any more now that they have the CR2477 selling in a pack of 10 for only 6$ and each cell atleast contains a minimum of 0.25 grams. Also they are on aliexpress just so you know.

I don't think I can buy lithium metal directly from ebay without getting into some trouble unless they mask the lithium into some other item so that it can pass through customs easily. It did happen with my magnesium rods that I ordered from dhgate that were labelled as clothes.

[Edited on 9-12-2018 by CrimsonRed]

Ubya - 9-12-2018 at 16:29

even if half of the lithium from ebay was oxide it would still be better than extracting it from batteries. as for problems with customs i didn't know lithium could be a problem, maybe because it could be used to make meth

CrimsonRed - 9-12-2018 at 17:33

well the thing is its a 50 / 50 that u even get some form of lithium, half the time its not even lithium and u can find some posts that question ebay seller's quality, i think the batteries are a safer alternative

Ubya - 10-12-2018 at 00:17

if you buy from ebay and get scammed you can ask a refund, maybe the seller will cooperate, if not just ask ebay directly, i got a refund for table salt sold as potassium iodide, the seller proposed to refund me just 2$ out of 6$ that i paid, i asked ebay and got full refund in less than a day

DoctorOfPhilosophy - 10-12-2018 at 17:37

Two suggestions to the lithiumheads here:

1. If you want a clean sample but don't have fancy equipment (argon / vacuum pumps), sparge the oil you are using for storage with helium from a balloon tank. Also you can "getter" the oil with sacrificial lithium from one battery, remove the corroded lithium, and add fresh lithium (presumably for display, since for storage you would just keep it in the battery.)

2. Don't try to fuse (melt) the lithium into a blob using a ceramic crucible. It will explode and hurl molten alkali metal at your face. Theo Gray has confirmed my result. The lithium reacts with the silicon and aluminum oxide and you get a nasty thermite-like bang.

Regarding this: