Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Help coding insecticide synth in video game.

EPDGaffney - 23-5-2018 at 07:30

Hello, everyone. This is my first post here. I'm browsing these pages for a while learning about chemistry (I have no prior knowledge) as I work on my mod for Fallout: New Vegas, and I think I need to ask some specific questions. Thank you in advance.

So, the situation is the player needs to navigate a cellar filled with giant aggressive insects. To avoid standard combat, they can fill the cellar with an insecticidal gas based primarily on DDT. This takes place on a deserted farm and there is a machine that was once used to spray this mixture on the crops.

The machine has no insecticide left, but there is a tiny chemistry lab that used to be used to make the mixture. This lab contains the following substances:
Ammonium hydroxide
Bleach (with chlorine)
Drain Cleaner (with sulphuric acid)
Grain Alcohol
Ice
Water
Window Cleaner (intended as a red herring substance, don't know what should be in it)

1. The player is intended to distil Benzene from another item in the game, Flamer Fuel.

2. Next step is to make Chlorobenzene, which I don't know how to do exactly but I gather is feasible with the chlorine gas from the bleach and drain cleaner.

3. Then make Chloral Hydrate by turning the grain alcohol anhydrous, chlorinating it, adding sulphuric acid to it, heating it, and taking the chloral hydrate from the top.

4. I'm a bit lost on the next bit but I think I need to combine the chlorobenzene and chloral hydrate with more sulphuric. I don't know what to do after that.

So, I need help with a few things:
1. Do I have the above right and what steps would satisfy a knowledgeable person playing a computer game?

2. If the player combines any of the materials not intended for this, what happens?

3. Are there any by-products that are part of these operations that I should be aware of?

4. And finally, what flasks do I need?

I'm a little afraid no-one is going to be interested in reading all this, but I'm hoping. Thank you in advance.

12thealchemist - 23-5-2018 at 08:01

Question 1:
Step 1: Infeasible in real life, but for a game believable
Step 2: Entirely workable; though using pool chlorinator (TCCA) is easier practically. You'll also need a catalyst, like iron wool or filings. Aluminium can also be used, along with many other possibilities, but those'll be easiest to work with in the game
Step 3: Plausible for the game
Step 4: Mix the chlorobenzene, chloral hydrate and concentrated sulphuric acid, heat, then pour the result into water. The DDT would precipitate out. You'd need to concentrate the sulphuric acid by boiling it for a bit first though. More complicated in real life, but for the sake of the game believable again

Question 2:
Ammonia and bleach is bad news, chloramines and hydrazine are possible products
Ammonia and sulphuric acid just form ammonium sulphate, a fertiliser
Bleach and alcohol will form chloroform
Sulphuric acid and ethanol will form ether at lower (~130°C) temperatures and ethylene at higher temperatures (150+°C)

Question 3:
Step 2: Overchlorination is possible, but the final product would have a similar effect. You'd want to use dry benzene and dry chlorine to reduce side reactions.
Step 3: Potential formation of chloroform as byproduct; this would not be usable for making DDT

Question 4:
Step 1: Fractional distillation apparatus
Step 2: Reflux apparatus, using either single-neck flask with a tube going all the way into the bottom of the flask or two-neck with the tube going into one of the necks. The product would then be distilled out
Step 3: Chlorine generated in one flask, various apparatus arrangements possible. Basically, slowly add the acid to the bleach or pool chlorine and use a tube to take the gas generated out and pass it into even a beaker of acidified alcohol. Other forum members may wish to correct me there, though. If you use concentrated sulphuric acid again (not loads), the ethanol can be distilled off, followed by the chloral hydrate
Step 4: Reflux apparatus

Precisely which flasks (round bottomed vs conical) is as far as I can tell a matter of personal preference and the reaction that is being carried out. For the purposes of the game, it isn't vital for these reactions to have one or the other.

Texium - 23-5-2018 at 08:16

Hi, interesting question you have here.

I would say that what you have so far is accurate enough for a video game that isn't primarily a chemistry game. Knowing that in Fallout, bullets are crafted from fertilizer and steel, I think it's alright if it isn't 100% accurate. Rendering the ethanol anhydrous can probably be omitted for simplicity's sake. Making chlorobenzene would require an iron chloride catalyst, but that can be made in situ by having the player throw a bit of iron in the pot. The chlorobenzene would have to be distilled afterwards to separate it from higher boiling polychlorinated compounds (this wouldn't be feasible in real life on a laboratory scale, but neither would distilling benzene from gasoline).

To simplify the glassware requirements, you could have a generic "gas generator," "reaction vessel," and "distillation apparatus," that the player can add components to. You can get ideas on how to make these look from pictures in threads here. Then the player would simply have to add each component to the correct vessel.

[Edited on 5-23-2018 by Texium (zts16)]

aga - 23-5-2018 at 11:26

For a Game you'll not need to be accurate at all.
Being so might Downrate the game anyway.

Just need sparkly bits that work if you put them in the right order, hopefully blowing up if you get the order wrong.

Maybe Nasty Gas or other lethal hazard depending on the incorrect-ness of the order in which things are done.

Got to be either an Erlenmeyer or RBF so people will recognise it as 'chemically'.

Don't bother about accuracy - aim more for visual appeal and you'll be right on the money.

Edit:

Harking back to alchemy days, you could have a small and nasty man appear in the glass - a Hormunculus.

Get the Order wrong, forget to put a stopper in the flask, said hormunculus leaps out and wreaks havok.

Might be a nice addition to the usual Gas, Boiling Foam, Explosion kinda scenario.

If you try to make it too accurate you'll end up coding long sequences of nothing interesting happening, tar removal and cleaning the glassware ;)

[Edited on 23-5-2018 by aga]

EPDGaffney - 23-5-2018 at 13:01

I really really really appreciate the responses. I'm starting to wonder have I bitten off more than I can chew, though. The combinations seem to be more or less infinite. I loved the idea of affording the player all these choices, but I may have to simplify it by using options like 'Distil off benzene' rather than 'Set the temperature' and allowing them to type whatever number they want.

The idea was to give the player a chance to mess up, and feel rewarded when they did it correctly (if they have the required stats, they get instructions representing their character's thoughts), but I don't know how to design this system. It would be convenient for me to code every wrong combination just to blow up the lab or otherwise remove the misused components from the game, but that probably sounds ridiculous to a chemist.

In any event, if anyone's willing, some very laymen-orientated instructions could really help me here. My understanding so far is this:

I. Benzene.


II. Chlorobenzene.


III. DDT.


III. Sulphuric Acid


IV. DDT.


Finally, the idea is that the machine fills the cellar with a gas. I suppose I can just have that all happen in the machine once the DDT is added. Any ideas on how to gloss that over? 'Insecticde Machine: Contains ______-based propellant and ______. The insecticide is missing.'


I want to give a heart-felt thanks to everyone that's responded. I know I'm a little ambitious for my own good, so it means a lot when people are willing to help me along with all the mad things I take on.
Quote:
...in Fallout, bullets are crafted from fertilizer and steel...

I have about 3,000 hours logged in this game and I didn't know that.

@aga
I really hate when games cut corners like that, and if this were my own game, I'd probably be more rigid, but because it's just a mod for New Vegas, I'm starting to wonder should I accept that you really do have a point, and simplify this process.
Quote:
If you try to make it too accurate you'll end up coding long sequences of nothing interesting happening, tar removal and cleaning the glassware

Hahaha, you don't know me; that sounds like an amazing game to me. Programming it sounds a little less enjoyable, though.

aga - 23-5-2018 at 13:35

It isn't working - the bit where you want people to assume you know nothing about chemistry and are actually making a video game.

Make a video game, surprise us all, maybe even yourself.

EPDGaffney - 23-5-2018 at 19:44

Oh, forgot Chloral Hydrate, somehow.

Chloral Hydrate.

Does that sound horribly wrong to anyone?
Quote:

It isn't working - the bit where you want people to assume you know nothing about chemistry and are actually making a video game. Make a video game, surprise us all, maybe even yourself.

I assume that's a compliment on my knowledge of chemistry demonstrated here? If so, thank you but I feel completely overwhelmed, though in fairness that has a lot to do with balancing the coding side with all the realistic possibilities of the chemistry and deciding where exactly to draw a line and just not code some things. Still wouldn't say I know much about chemistry, though, if I'm honest.

If it can be confirmed that I understand these operations, at least on a video-game-satisfactory level, I think I'll use this as a base and try to streamline the gameplay of it a bit (in an effort to finish coding this before we colonise Mars).

Thanks again.

Sulaiman - 23-5-2018 at 20:14

As the enemy is in a basement just mixing bleach with acid will produce chlorine gas,
toxic to all known lifeforms and denser than air.

If the DDT is of sufficient quantity to kill the enemy in a reasonable time frame, your player(s) will have difficulty getting past the DDT unless wearing suitable protection.

EPDGaffney - 23-5-2018 at 20:25

That's a good point, Sulaiman. For game balance, I'd prefer the player to have to do more than that. How much bleach would you need for the chlorine gas to spread throughout the entire cellar vs how much you'd need to make enough DDT to do the same?

The insecticide machine that the player is meant to use on the vent to the cellar has some potentially fudgeable workings that I may use as an in-game reason for requiring DDT. Maybe. It's supposed to have some propellant and something to make the DDT come out as a gas (I believe what I have here yields powder).

As for the player needing to wear something protective when going back down, I have that bit all worked out and I'm mad to put it into action. But thank you for mentioning it.

TheMrbunGee - 24-5-2018 at 02:27

Oh man, I am so willing to play this game already!! :D

Yes, DDT is a powder, practically insoluble in water but soluble in many non polar solvents.

May be gas (chlorine) could not be used because of some kind of active ventilation, so you must spray the thing directly on the bugs. hazmat suit and gas mask should keep you safe in the sprayed area.

As I found out Flamer Fuel is actually "ethanol mixture combined with the flammable properties of detergent to create a deadly fuel mixture." Benzene is not supposed to be there. :D


DrP - 24-5-2018 at 03:49

I MUST just say that I am a total fan of the 'Fallout' games.... amazingly brilliant computer game. One of the best rpg games imo - up there with the elder scrolls' Morrowind and Skyrim easy. Loved it. Don't know how to praise it enough! Starstruck fanboy gush over...

I'd have to agree with aga here for sure. It doesn't need to be real or too complex. Just as long as it sounds feasible and doesn't give players too much of a head ache working it out. Gameplay HAS to be key. If it is cool and fun but made up.... then that is much better than a real sim that is tiresome, boring and pointlessly accurate for the sake of realism and accuracy. Please don't spoil Fallout by trying to make it a sim. :-)

Did I mention I am a big fan of the game? :D



EPDGaffney - 24-5-2018 at 05:51

Quote:
Oh man, I am so willing to play this game already!! :D

Haha, well, if I survive long enough to finish it, next century you can check the Nexus for a mod called Gloomy Sunday Best.
Quote:
Yes, DDT is a powder, practically insoluble in water but soluble in many non polar solvents.

In that case, what substance should already be in the insecticide machine? I need a propellant (I think at least) and something that turns the DDT into gas. The machine can be made to alter temperatures if necessary.
Quote:
May be gas (chlorine) could not be used because of some kind of active ventilation, so you must spray the thing directly on the bugs. hazmat suit and gas mask should keep you safe in the sprayed area.

Thanks for the suggestion, but the enemies are extremely fast and there are a lot of scripted events that spawn them. The idea was to turn off all the events and lay carcasses all about the place and avoid the combat for players that want to use this method. Is there another reason I can use so that chlorine gas wouldn't work here?
Quote:
As I found out Flamer Fuel is actually "ethanol mixture combined with the flammable properties of detergent to create a deadly fuel mixture." Benzene is not supposed to be there. :D

That was scary. But I looked into it a bit and I think you were talking about the home-made variety of flamer fuel and its wiki entry. I don't remember where I found this out but I remember reading that the standard flamer fuel was petrol-based. The home-made one requires maize and degrades the weapon quickly.

Glad you're such a fan, DrP. Which of the games have you played? This mod is for New Vegas. The first two Fallout games were something special and obviously very different to modern ones, whereas the modern ones use that Morrowind engine (with some minor tweaks). Of the modern ones, New Vegas is the only one made by the people that made the first two. There's a bit of a divide in the community on this. Probably a bit of blood as well.

I tend to go for realism wherever possible, but gameplay is always my top priority. In this case, I'll take some liberties I wouldn't normally take, but it's more for coding time than gameplay. I am aware that Fallout bases its science as much on 1950s pop misconceptions of science as it does actual science, so that's something to fall back on.

So, my major questions are still the following:
What is my excuse for requiring this as opposed to simple chlorine gas?
What is inside the insecticide machine to be mixed with the DDT?

Cheers.

DrP - 24-5-2018 at 07:25

Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  
Oh
Glad you're such a fan, DrP. Which of the games have you played? This mod is for New Vegas.
Cheers.


I only played one of them.... 3 or 4 I think on the 360. Played it through several times as different characters. :-) My pal has the latest x-box and probably has the latest version. If I ever update my old consuls then I will get whatever versions of Fallout are available. I tend to use my PC now for gaming - might get another x-box in the future. :-)

I was a big fan of Morrowind also.

[Edited on 24-5-2018 by DrP]

[Edited on 24-5-2018 by DrP]

EPDGaffney - 24-5-2018 at 07:41

Fallout 3 and New Vegas are the only ones on the 360, so you must have played 3. 3 was a good game but really simplified a lot of what made the first two as great as they were. FO1 and 2 are much more realistic. Not that they don't have huge scientific gaps as well but FO3 and 4 are a good bit more gimmicky. Which is fine. It's really about personal preference.

FO1 and 2's publisher and development teams were disbanded and Bethesda bought the rights to Fallout, essentially turning it into an Elder Scrolls type of game with a Fallout-like setting. They let Obsidian make New Vegas, and the team that did so had several members from the Fallout 1 and 2 teams, causing New Vegas to be a different type of game from 3 and 4 and Elder Scrolls, in terms of design philosophy and lore, despite using the same engine.

New Vegas has more grounded story design, character interaction, science, weapons, &c. than 3 and 4. So that could be why it seems a little weird that I want this to be so realistic. Not that New Vegas is completely true to life, but it is more so.

Bert - 24-5-2018 at 08:08

Erm, there is a REAL, demonstrated, complete with pictures and stoichiometry process for producing chlorobenzene from commonly available ingredients with home made equipment at the beginning of the "Pentryl from OTC" member publication by Axt.

Pentryl

Sodium benzoate is used to preserve foods, might well be found on a farm (they made their own saussage?). The rest of the equipment and materials are drain opener chemicals (Sodium hydroxide, sulfuric acid), Copper plumbing bits and a common pool chlorination chemical (TCCA).

I should play video games again some day, apparently they now come with chemistry? Cool...

[Edited on 5-24-2018 by Bert]

CuReUS - 24-5-2018 at 09:50

Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16)  
Making chlorobenzene would require an iron chloride catalyst, but that can be made in situ by having the player throw a bit of iron in the pot.

Or just use an iron pot:D
Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  
What is my excuse for requiring this as opposed to simple chlorine gas?

don't give the player any protective clothing.Then chlorine can't be used since it will kill the player also whereas DDT won't
Quote:
What is inside the insecticide machine to be mixed with the DDT?

from wiki
Quote:
DDT has been formulated in multiple forms, including solutions in xylene or petroleum distillates, emulsifiable concentrates, water-wettable powders, granules, aerosols, smoke candles and charges for vaporizers and lotions

So you could mix it with flamer fuel and spray it.
But I think a more exciting idea would be to make a bomb that would disperse the DDT as an aerosol inside the room.:D
you could make a bomb using the drain cleaner-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdjR57GV0d8
aerosol produced by explosive detonation -http://home.agh.edu.pl/~km2007/misc/papers/21.pdf

[Edited on 24-5-2018 by CuReUS]

Texium - 24-5-2018 at 10:32

Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  
Quote:
...in Fallout, bullets are crafted from fertilizer and steel...

I have about 3,000 hours logged in this game and I didn't know that.
Well jeez, didn't mean to insult your experience... I guess that's just in Fallout 4.

EPDGaffney - 24-5-2018 at 17:54

Bert:
Thank you. I did know about this method and opted for flamer fuel because it's already in the game. I feel that it helps to integrate my additions more seamlessly if in addition to my chem lab filled with ingredients, one of the requirements is something the player is undoubtedly accustomed to seeing throughout the entire game world.

All the same, I found that write-up more interesting than a lot of what I've come across, what with all the details and images and the use of household items. Thank you for that.

On the subject of video games including chemistry, but on a broader note, I don't know when you stopped playing them, but they vary wildly and currently the worst traits of Hollywood abound in the mainstream. But looking at mainstream games from a few years ago or independently produced games now, you may be surprised at what details some of them include. If you get the right one, it's like playing a really good film instead of watching it, or in the case of games like Fallout (1, 2, and New Vegas), it's often like being in a really good book. Not to discount a well made action game, but that doesn't sound like what piqued your interest. Hellblade apparently plays really well and explores mental illness in a way that people with said illness(es?) belauded, so I'm keen to grab that one at some point.

Cureus:
I have the iron sorted out. Proud of the elegance of it as well.

Unfortunately for the idea of not giving the player protective clothing, it's already in the game in abundance. Radiation suits and 'power armour' and such. Also, I'd like to require that the player wear one of those in order to enter the cellar once this is done. You wouldn't have any other ideas on not using the chlorine gas, would you?

On the bomb ideas, I like them, but I may have to use them elsewhere (haha, now that I know chemistry stuff a bit, I'm going to put it all over this mod). See, there's this build-up with vents all over the cellar (also, the cellar is the size of the farm, as in, massive), notes about the vents, little hints dropped by records of the last expedition group recalling insecticide up top. And it's a good many hours I spent modelling the insecticide machine, so I'd love to use it. It looks like something out of Forbidden Planet.


Texium:
Looking into it, there's apparently a DLC for Fallout 4 that makes this possible. Crafting was so automated in that game that I don't really remember what I used to make anything, so I was assuming I'd just forgotten, but it seems I never saw it in the first place.

I don't know if there are Fallout 4 fans here but I'd like to clarify that I live in New Vegas and I like it, but I didn't mind my visit to Fallout 4, either. It was different, but once I stopped treating it like an RPG and started treating it like a post-apocalyptic exploration shooter, I did honestly have a good time of it.

----------------------------------------------

So, still looking for excuses not to let the player use chlorine alone as opposed to DDT or 'insecticide' as I'll call it, to give myself a bit of wiggle room.

And if I just have flamer fuel already in the insecticide machine, is that acceptable as a means of spreading a DDT-like substance about the place like a gas? I don't know that I made it clear but it's to be sent throughout the ventilation system.

Thanks again, everyone. You're all very helpful.

mayko - 24-5-2018 at 19:12

I don't play computer games much but I can think of a few where chemistry was built in or

Call of Cthulhu: Shadow of the Comet had a subplot where you develop photographs in a 1910 era dark room:

http://www.the-spoiler.com/ADVENTURE/Infogrames/shadow.of.co...

System Shock 2 had a mechanism where you could 'research' your enemies to learn backstory and improve damage against them. It required input of various elements which added a scavenger-hunt element but didn't have any underlying chemistry but it always seemed like a clever use of setting (a research spaceship)

EPDGaffney - 24-5-2018 at 21:03

My first exposure to direct chemistry in a game was funny enough the bit in Silent Hill 3 where you need to clear a corridor of insects by mixing bleach with what the game calls detergent but was probably meant to be ammonia. It's probably a translation error or something, as the in-game description of the 'detergent' is as follows:
It was next to the bakery sink. It's not for dishes, though -- It's for the bathroom.
They even make you turn off the giant industrial fans first so that when you leave the room to escape the vapours, the gas isn't blown over to where you are.

Besides that, there's the relatively well known SpaceChem.

And some of the Frogwares Sherlock Holmes stuff does it decently. It's not in-depth but it's passable I suppose. It's more about the puzzle-solving, letting Holmes do most of the heavy lifting in terms of chemistry. The trouble with video games is you kind of need to provide your player with everything they'd need to solve a puzzle, so science is hard to incorporate without doing it for them. Unless you market your entire game based on that and then follow through for said game's entirety.

For anyone interested in historical accuracy, the game I'm developing (completely separate from this mod) is called Road Fever. Takes place in 1898 in rural Ireland. It's extremely thorough. You can't reload your gun in combat without having your next clip/magazine/speed-loader already prepared, for example. Of course, it's a lot of work and it may take me most of my life, but it will exist some day. There will be some chemistry in that one as well.

LearnedAmateur - 24-5-2018 at 22:03

Quote: Originally posted by CuReUS  

Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  
What is my excuse for requiring this as opposed to simple chlorine gas?

don't give the player any protective clothing.Then chlorine can't be used since it will kill the player also whereas DDT won't


Yeah but if the player happened to be wearing a radiation suit (found in vanilla game) then that would, realistically, provide some protection against poisonous gases. Full body cover + respirator/gas mask = safety. Unless the chlorine gas is programmed to rapidly degrade the suit? Then again it is just a game after all, going back to how realistic it should be and how complex the coding is.

A9D78F22-A582-4563-B703-706E7E8011E4.png - 150kB

EPDGaffney - 24-5-2018 at 22:56

Indeed. My code is going to check for anything that is equipped to any head slots and offers radiation resistance, and any equipped item that modifies breathing ability (for underwater swimming). This should account for any item added by any mod, as well as everything in the game already.

What I really want is to flood the cellar with insecticide, then on interacting with the cellar door warn the player to equip something for their breathing safety. If they don't, their health will drain rapidly on entering.

This is all for my game design perspective. However, I'm still looking for a good reason to force the player to make this more complex insecticide as opposed to the chlorine gas. I'm thinking I'll place a warning on the machine that says pure chlorine would break it. I've seen what corrosion damage it can cause, so I'm hoping that would be reasonable.

CuReUS - 25-5-2018 at 01:04

Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  

And if I just have flamer fuel already in the insecticide machine, is that acceptable as a means of spreading a DDT-like substance about the place like a gas?

I don't see why not.You can't call it a gas exactly.A better term would be aerosol.
Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  
I'm thinking I'll place a warning on the machine that says pure chlorine would break it. I've seen what corrosion damage it can cause, so I'm hoping that would be reasonable.

That's a great idea.Not only Cl2,even the HCl formed from reacting with moisture can corrode circuitry.http://www.er-emergency.com/technical-bulletin-effects-of-sm...
speaking of chemistry in games :D -
https://www.reddit.com/r/chemistry/comments/88n0x8/found_in_...

[Edited on 25-5-2018 by CuReUS]

EPDGaffney - 25-5-2018 at 08:10

Thanks for the links. I find stuff like that really interesting. Even read all the comments on the reddit page, haha. I think the reddit thread is interesting because they managed to put in something that works on several layers. It doesn't require any prior knowledge, but it communicates to the player that there is somewhat complex chemistry in action. On the other hand, it seems that if you do have a background in it, you'll be impressed. Still doesn't amount to much chemistry on the part of the player, but it's nice to see all the same.

There's a bit of chemistry in L.A. Noire somewhere. But what that game does best is historical accuracy (in most ways) and its unique approach to police questioning where you have to pay attention to the motion-captured body language of each interviewee.

So, I would call it aerosol in the machine, but would a toxic gas still linger in the cellar? This is what I'm trying to achieve.

aga - 25-5-2018 at 11:24

Carbon Monoxide would.

Dips in the landscape surrounding bubbling volcanoes tend to collect it.

Anything that goes into the dip dies unless it's breathing holes are above the CO layer.

Any heavier-than-air gas would collect in the cellar.

Edit:

If the player is slightly above cellar level, they could 'unlock' a huge store of beer.

Then, given time, they could gradually consume the entire stock of booze and flood the cellar with very dilute urine and the occasional upchuck while randomly shouting abusive/sympathetic/belligerent nonsense at the imaginary occupants before passing out, possibly ordering a kebab or pizza just before.

The occupants of the cellar would be disabled physically and mentally, with a huge mess to clear up , then the Player could wake up later with a hangover and continue on with the next level : Hyper Market Booze-Out.

... a bit like like a shoot-out but the players have to choose how much of the beer to drink to ensure the correct weight before hurling the can at the enemy ...

The 'Big Boss' scene is clearly going to involve industrial volumes of Vodka.

[Edited on 25-5-2018 by aga]

EPDGaffney - 25-5-2018 at 14:37

Interesting, but would carbon monoxide be used in something like this? Also, would it not eliminate the need to make insecticide if that were already in the machine?

CuReUS - 26-5-2018 at 22:59

Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  
So, I would call it aerosol in the machine, but would a toxic gas still linger in the cellar? This is what I'm trying to achieve.

Again, aerosol and gas are not synonymous.I think some of the aerosol would still be dispersed in the air if the player entered soon after spraying.But overtime the particles will settle down.
Anyways,this would make no difference because DDT doesn't kill someone immediately.
another example of chemistry in games -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CZbf1KrxVs

EPDGaffney - 26-5-2018 at 23:24

Wow, I really wanted to play that game based on the praise it was getting, but I hadn't looked at any of the gameplay. Looks really interesting.

Yes, I know aerosol is just air particles. What I would like to do is to make whatever insecticide is the result of all the lab work, on being sprayed from the insecticide machine, become a gas. If that's mythological just let me know. I was under the impression DDT was used as a gas at times.

I'm not going to call it DDT and it doesn't need to be. Using whatever vague language I need to use, I would like the player to be at risk if they enter the room without breathing protection. If there's nothing that makes this feasible, I'll just use 'game logic' and make the particles never settle. Time already passes completely unrealistically in that game anyway.

I am specifying a lot of the process of making the insecticide, and I am naming chlorobenzene and chloral hydrate. I'm hoping that whatever is inside the insecticide machine can be specified or even glossed over in a way that makes it plausible for there to be a health risk on entering the cellar.

Would an extremely high concentration be good enough or should I try t find an alternative?

CuReUS - 27-5-2018 at 00:43

Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  
What I would like to do is to make whatever insecticide is the result of all the lab work, on being sprayed from the insecticide machine, become a gas. If that's mythological just let me know.
I don't think that's possible because
a)DDT doesn't exist as a gas(it decomposes at high temp)
b)agricultural insecticide machines release it in the form of aerosol
If you are so hell bent on using a gas,you could use this -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_cyanoformate
reacting this with water creates HCN,which is a gas.Methycyanoformate is a liquid,so you could spray it into the room,before turning on the fire sprinkler system inside the cellar,or you could just mix both in the machine itself and pump the "gas" into the cellar.
Quote:
I'm not going to call it DDT and it doesn't need to be...
....I am specifying a lot of the process of making the insecticide, and I am naming chlorobenzene and chloral hydrate.

this is completely contraindicatory.Why would you take the effort to cross all the T's and dot all the I's if at the end you are just going to call it XYZ ?
Quote:
Would an extremely high concentration be good enough or should I try t find an alternative?

just because it doesn't kill you instantly doesn't mean its not toxic in the long run.The player could wear protective breathing gear to make sure he lasts till the next installment:D

TheMrbunGee - 27-5-2018 at 02:01

Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  


This is all for my game design perspective. However, I'm still looking for a good reason to force the player to make this more complex insecticide as opposed to the chlorine gas. I'm thinking I'll place a warning on the machine that says pure chlorine would break it. I've seen what corrosion damage it can cause, so I'm hoping that would be reasonable.




Those are some kind of mutant insects, maybe they are immune to chlorine?

Maybe you have some kind of squirt gun, witch requires liquid to be used.

Maybe the cellar is too big to be filled with deadly concentration of chlorine.

Maybe the cellar is filled with something that reacts with chlorine so it would use up quickly.

Maybe you can code a possibility to fill the cellar with Chlorine, but the ceilings are high an bugs are flying above the chlorine, which sinks to the bottom of premises and proves to be ineffective.

That's all I got. :D

EPDGaffney - 27-5-2018 at 06:23

CuReUS:
Ah, see, I did think it was used as a gas at times. That's fair enough. I have a plan. A really good, Fallout-y plan: the cellar is filled already with 'radiation', a term so nebulous that it could be referring to anything. What I will do is have my insecticide cause a reäction of some kind that results in a high toxicity after killing all the bugs.

Your methyl cyanoformate idea is really good. I'm too far along on this route to change what I was planning, but I like that concept a lot, with the sprinklers and all.
Quote:
this is completely contraindicatory.Why would you take the effort to cross all the T's and dot all the I's if at the end you are just going to call it XYZ ?

Well, I'm just going to be vague and call it insecticide is all. But to answer your question more properly, it feels fantastic to play through at least what I have so far of the chemistry-based processes with all the proper language to back it up and science that checks out if you research it. Game design and realism are often at odds with each other (like film plots and realism, among other things), and game design does have to take precedence, but I try to find the sweet spot where neither side needs to compromise much or at-all.

TheMrbunGee:
Quote:
Those are some kind of mutant insects, maybe they are immune to chlorine?

I don't know the science but I suspect that's implausible. But then, so are Fallout's ghouls and most of its other species. A better reason for not doing this is perhaps that I can put the warning label on the machine when the player interacts with it, but I wouldn't know where to communicate the information about these insects.
Quote:
Maybe the cellar is too big to be filled with deadly concentration of chlorine.

Oh, can I do that? I asked about this but it must have got lost in the thread as no-one mentioned it again. Because of the warning label I mentioned, that still may be the best way to handle this, but I may try to incorporate the cellar's size into a secondary reason somewhere.
Quote:
Maybe the cellar is filled with something that reacts with chlorine so it would use up quickly.

Em...radiation?

[Edited on 27-5-2018 by EPDGaffney]

EPDGaffney - 27-5-2018 at 06:30

Does this sound like real chemistry or is it obvious that I have no idea what I'm doing:
Quote:
You combine some Bleach and Drain Cleaner to produce chlorine. Using Iron Shavings as the catalyst, you induce a chemical reaction, causing the Benzene to chlorinate. The specialised filter allows you to distil Chlorobenzene from the resultant compound. You store it in another flask.

CobaltChloride - 27-5-2018 at 11:11

That does sound like chemistry to me. There's nothing that sounds really wrong there.

TheMrbunGee - 27-5-2018 at 13:05

Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  


Quote:
Maybe the cellar is filled with something that reacts with chlorine so it would use up quickly.

Em...radiation?



Radiation would not destroy chlorine.

EPDGaffney - 27-5-2018 at 14:57

Quote: Originally posted by CobaltChloride  
That does sound like chemistry to me. There's nothing that sounds really wrong there.

Thanks.
Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee  
Radiation would not destroy chlorine.

I was partially joking, as Fallout's treatment of radiation is fairly ridiculous and all-encompassing. But the bit I meant seriously was that whatever substance is producing the radiation can interact with the chlorine as you suggested.

The cellar was a covered-up lab where they conducted biological experiments before the Great War that turned the world into a post-apocalyptic dystopia (though most of that portion is blocked off to the player and they can just get hints of that). Meaning basically anything you tell me would cause what you had in mind, I can use.

But I'm a little more interested in something that can turn DDT or a DDT-like substance more immediately toxic. Or the propellant can be what becomes toxic (if I do need one, which I think I do). Flamers use a nitro-based one if I recall. Would that work with DDT or would that cause problems once the two interact and before it hits the insects (or crops, as it was intended to do years before the player ever gets to this place)?

If anyone knows, the answer is welcome, but I may be able to find out myself what they actually used when DDT was more prominent.

aga - 27-5-2018 at 15:04

DDT is a boring choice.

Younger players (i.e. your Market) will not even know what it is/was.

This fabrication was really thin from the start.

If you really are making a game, take what you got and make a game.

Do we get a sneak-preview of an actual screenshot ? Thought not.

Nothing in this thread was un-findable with a few hours on google.

Sulaiman - 27-5-2018 at 15:35

Maybe chlorine would cause fire-extinguishing stuff to go off,
chasing the enemy out of the cellar ?
Or more evilly,
it would damage the locking mechanism to get through/out of the cellar :P

EPDGaffney - 27-5-2018 at 15:36

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
DDT is a boring choice.

Younger players (i.e. your Market) will not even know what it is/was.

This fabrication was really thin from the start.

If you really are making a game, take what you got and make a game.

Do we get a sneak-preview of an actual screenshot ? Thought not.

Nothing in this thread was un-findable with a few hours on google.

Wait, you were serious before? Your comment did read as a little insulting and I thought I was reading too much into because when I posted on an architecture forum for some help a few years back, some people were happy to help but a lot of them just kept insulting me in an effort to make me feel like an outsider and get out of their house.

Right so, why would I be here? I mean, really? What is the thing you think I'm doing instead of 'making a game'? I happen to be making a different game that I put on hold to make this mod for a Fallout game, something people do fairly often.

And sorry but I came here as a last resort after spending about a week doing my head in with what I was finding on Google. Maybe if you understand chemistry already, it makes sense, but I don't, so I had to learn a lot of basic stuff just to understand the bare minimum of what was on any given page regarding what I was trying to understand.

DDT was chosen because the game is set in a 1950s-based future, the one that a lot of people in the '50s expected would come to pass after the next nuclear war.

What 'fabrication'? Why would I be here? I really don't understand what you think I'm actually doing here.

I don't know what 'take what you got and make a game' even means or why you would be encouraging someone to put less science in a game if you are on this forum because you like science.
Quote:
Do we get a sneak-preview of an actual screenshot ? Thought not.

Em, did you want one? Why did you not just ask? I was actually planning to make a video of this part of the mod when it's all done in hopefully a week, as a sort of thanks to everyone that's doing their best to help me with it, on what I thought was an off-chance someone would be interested in what little auld me was doing.

I was actually a little afraid that it would seem like showing off when I did that, but if that's what you want, I mean...what would you like a picture of? Do you play Fallout: New Vegas? Will you recognise what's modded in and what's already part of the game?

CuReUS - 27-5-2018 at 19:39

Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee  
Maybe you can code a possibility to fill the cellar with Chlorine, but the ceilings are high an bugs are flying above the chlorine, which sinks to the bottom of premises and proves to be ineffective.

how would it matter if the gas was lighter or heavier than air if the whole cellar was filled with it?
Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  

Quote:
Maybe the cellar is too big to be filled with deadly concentration of chlorine.

Oh, can I do that? I asked about this but it must have got lost in the thread as no-one mentioned it again. Because of the warning label I mentioned, that still may be the best way to handle this, but I may try to incorporate the cellar's size into a secondary reason somewhere.

that depends on how much bleach and acid the player has access to.Theoretically you could fill the whole earth with chlorine if you had that much reagents.Each mole of chlorine formed occupies 22.4L.You would then have to calculate lethal concentration and whatnot.That's why the better explanation is that Cl would destroy the spraying machine because of its corrosiveness
Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  
Or the propellant can be what becomes toxic (if I do need one, which I think I do). Flamers use a nitro-based one if I recall. Would that work with DDT or would that cause problems once the two interact and before it hits the insects (or crops, as it was intended to do years before the player ever gets to this place)?

compressed air is the propellant -https://ag.umass.edu/greenhouse-floriculture/fact-sheets/spr...
Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  
I was actually planning to make a video of this part of the mod when it's all done in hopefully a week, as a sort of thanks to everyone that's doing their best to help me with it, on what I thought was an off-chance someone would be interested in what little auld me was doing.

Yes please :)

[Edited on 28-5-2018 by CuReUS]

EPDGaffney - 28-5-2018 at 00:49

Thanks, Sulaiman and CuReUS.

I'll use damaging the machine as the reason not to use chlorine here.

What chemical spill in the cellar could have a reäction with the DDT that would cause the whole cellar to become highly toxic afterwards? Even if it's non-specific, if I have something general I can use to sell the idea, that's great. Otherwise, I think I have something vague I can use as a back-up plan.

When you chlorinate anything, you need a catalyst, is it? I was hoping to require the iron shavings for the chloral hydrate as well as the chlorobenzene. Does this make sense?

Thanks again to everyone that's really giving my questions thought. It means a lot. For anyone that's interested, I'm hoping to have a video in about a week.

EPDGaffney - 28-5-2018 at 06:20

How's this one? Is it like real chemistry or just a load of (can we curse here?) ?
Quote:

You distil the Alcohol until anhydrous. You combine Bleach and Drain Cleaner to produce chlorine. Using Iron Shavings you catalyse a chemical reaction, chlorinating the Alcohol. It is further distilled. You render 98% Sulphuric Acid from the Drain Cleaner and mix it with the crystalline compound. The Chloral Hydrate is distilled from this. You store it in another flask. Will you attempt to synthesize the Chlorobenzene now?|Yes|No

CuReUS - 28-5-2018 at 06:31

Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  
What chemical spill in the cellar could have a reäction with the DDT that would cause the whole cellar to become highly toxic afterwards? Even if it's non-specific, if I have something general I can use to sell the idea, that's great. Otherwise, I think I have something vague I can use as a back-up plan.

Quote: Originally posted by CuReUS  

just because it doesn't kill you instantly doesn't mean its not toxic in the long run.The player could wear protective breathing gear to make sure he lasts till the next installment:D

Quote:
When you chlorinate anything, you need a catalyst, is it? I was hoping to require the iron shavings for the chloral hydrate as well as the chlorobenzene. Does this make sense?

it depends on what you want to chlorinate.Chlorinating benzene requires a catalyst,but phenol can be chlorinated by bleach alone.Also there are different reaction mechanisms at work here.Chlorination of benzene is a electrophilic substitution reaction whereas chorination of ethanol to make chloral is probably a free radical + intramolecular rearrangement.
HCl and SbCl3 have been used as catalysts -http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2535#p...
chloral hydrate synthesis -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnwuKRMGyh4

EPDGaffney - 28-5-2018 at 08:35

Thank you. In a bit I'll look into how to integrate these catalysts.

I've seen that video, yeah. I was under the impression that the gas generator/aerator a few people were using was just to make the process easier but wasn't strictly necessary and that the right catalyst could work well enough for our purposes. Does that make actual scientific sense or am I really far off the mark there?

More pointedly, do I need to use a machine like that and if I do, should it be involved in any way in the Chlorobenzene synthesis?

I see what you're saying about long-term toxicity, and in real life, that would work, but because it's a game, and because it's an RPG, I feel the effects need to be more immediate to carry weight. Actually, even in real life, people know smoking cigarettes will kill you and they do it anyway, for example. I mean, I could maybe try to think of something to code in much much later in the game, which may actually be interesting...

But leaving that thought aside, if I didn't do that, and I just gave the player a warning telling them they can't enter the cellar because of long-term effects, it would feel like a betrayal of the 'role-playing' aspect of an RPG not to let them have the freedom to take that risk. If for example they're role-playing as someone that hasn't long to live, they probably wouldn't care much about long-term effects.

So, I either need to think of something to have happen much later in the game, or have a way to make the chemical spills in the cellar turn the whole place toxic when they interact with DDT. I think I'd prefer the latter option for this 'section' of the game, though the idea of coding an effect that occurs gradually and starts much later is on its own merits interesting.

aga - 28-5-2018 at 12:45

Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  
... Wait, you were serious before? ...

I'm a cranky drunken old bastard, hence the monica (see left).

I really do wish you the best with your game thing.

EPDGaffney - 28-5-2018 at 20:04

aga:
I don't really know what to do with that. It's not really an apology. Is it remorse? I can't tell. What I've inferred based on the amount of time you're a member of this forum, the number of posts you've contributed, and the lack of negative comments I see you levelling at other forum posters, is that it has something to do with me personally, and my guess is that it has something to do with a lack of respect for video games. All I can say to that is that you don't owe me any help if you don't want to offer me any, but I don't see what you gain by actively impeding me. That and a more scientific approach may be to research these games a bit more and realise that some of them are extremely intellectual and others are mindless tripe; they run the gamut.

The main reason I'm writing this to you is that whilst I happen to be fairly unemotional and I don't really care about any of the negative stuff you've been saying, that kind of an attitude can snuff out the drive of some people and have any number of unfortunate consequences. If I may, I'd urge you to try to avoid that by being more pleasant towards people for whom your contempt may be undue, or simply refrain from interacting with them.

Regarding the last bit, thank you for your kind wishes.

anyone:
What I'm trying to do is to use a catalyst that can be made from something that's already in the game. It's weird that the HCl and SbCl3 catalysts don't always seem to be mentioned. I'm still doing a little research, like on how the bleach and drain cleaner combination compares to the TCCA in that video.

I was using this frog's instructions for a while, and they didn't seem to use any catalyst. Is this accurate? Some of it's a little vague but at least to me, it seems to be written by someone that knows what they're doing:
http://www.carolinashootersclub.com/threads/homebrewed-ddt.5...

[Edited on 29-5-2018 by EPDGaffney]

CuReUS - 28-5-2018 at 20:46

Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  
I was under the impression that the gas generator/aerator a few people were using was just to make the process easier but wasn't strictly necessary and that the right catalyst could work well enough for our purposes. Does that make actual scientific sense or am I really far off the mark there?

its just a way to ensure a steady stream of dry chlorine gas.It has nothing to do with the actual reaction
Quote:
More pointedly, do I need to use a machine like that and if I do, should it be involved in any way in the Chlorobenzene synthesis?

Yes and Yes -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2WV52P3eus
Quote:
So, I either need to think of something to have happen much later in the game, or have a way to make the chemical spills in the cellar turn the whole place toxic when they interact with DDT.

I can't think of any scientific way the DDT or the flamer fuel could be converted to something more toxic.The only thing I can think of is that you could replace all the O2 in the room with the insecticide,then the player would have to wear a breathing apparatus
Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  
I'm still doing a little research, like on how the bleach and drain cleaner combination compares to the TCCA in that video.

it wouldn't make a difference.You just need something to give Cl2.You can use either bleach or TCCA
Quote:
I was using this frog's instructions for a while, and they didn't seem to use any catalyst. Is this accurate?

Yes,you don't have to use a catalyst to make chloral.I just mentioned them since you were interested in chorination catalysts.

[Edited on 29-5-2018 by CuReUS]

Bert - 29-5-2018 at 09:19
Quote:

Carbon Monoxide would.

Dips in the landscape surrounding bubbling volcanoes tend to collect it.


I thing you may mean Carbon dioxide? The monoxide is lighter than air, although quite toxic. The dioxide is heavier than air but not terribly bad for you, except as it might displace the breathable air.

There have been CO2 mass releases from bodies of water which DID kill the life nearby by blanketing the area with a layer of mostly CO2.

There have also been man made events of the same type, some regretably caused by idiots trying to work in my field.

Really, my main job is safety. There are so many ways to do spectacular effects offered up to those so inclined by the "good ideas fairy", which someone more experienced has to explain why NOT to do in real life...

EPDGaffney - 29-5-2018 at 10:28

Thanks a million, CuReUS. Most here have been helpful, but you've consistently gone above and beyond and I really appreciate it.

That video and the source it has in the description formed a major part of my research before coming here. I think there was a crucial misunderstanding on my part in that I thought a gas generator was some electric device, but from what I can tell, it can be but is just as often the name for any arrangement of flasks and tubes that routes a gas efficiently from the initial point of interaction between the substances producing the gas. And an aerator seems to be the same thing but specifies that it routes, I suppose 'air' normally?

Whatever it is, if both chlorination processes require it, it doesn't really impact the gameplay side, so I'll let that alone and maybe mention it in the description of the chemical manipulations as the player 'does' them.

I was mostly interested in chlorination catalysts as I thought somehow that they were required for this. If I could work in a way to make one from an already extant game item, I would probably require it for the player here, but I didn't see anything that would help me there. But for the chlorobenzene, was the iron catalyst required or simply a way of making it more efficient? If the latter, I should probably do the same for the chloral.

I think I'll just be vague about the chemical spills in the cellar and say the insecticide caused them to release toxic particles or toxic gas or whatever. In this setting, it's entirely plausible that there have been chemical discoveries that are not extant or even possible in our world. It should be grand. Also, I'm probably going to use both our ideas, and make it so that players that survive the rapidly draining health have an affliction that will drain 1 HP from their maximum every day or so until they cure it. Just have to come up with what that cure should be. Going to the doctor would be too simple. I'll have a think...

So, how does this sound?
Quote:
You distil the Alcohol until anhydrous. You combine Bleach and Drain Cleaner to produce chlorine. The Grain Alcohol is chlorinated and then further distilled. You render 98% Sulphuric Acid from the Drain Cleaner and mix it with the crystalline compound. The Chloral Hydrate is distilled from this. You store it in another flask.%r%rWill you attempt to synthesise the Chlorobenzene now?|Yes|No



Bert:
Thanks. You know, funny enough, that was my first thought, but I assumed I wasn't remembering right as I don't really consider myself knowledgeable on chemistry. It's a good job I'm programming my dangerous experiments into a computer game and not real life, haha.

And I meant to tell you last time you came round, I really love your signature. Anatol Rapoport has gained a new fan.

aga - 29-5-2018 at 10:46

[rquote]... carbon dioxide...[/rquote]
DOH !

That'd be the one. Cheers.

[Edited on 29-5-2018 by aga]

CuReUS - 29-5-2018 at 19:35

Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  
Would an extremely high concentration be good enough

You were right,high dose of DDT can kill.All your problems are solved now:)
Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  
And an aerator seems to be the same thing but specifies that it routes, I suppose 'air' normally?
correct.Also an aerator doesn't generate O2,it just takes it from the surrounding air,unlike a gas generator.You don't have to dry or purify the O2 coming out of an aerator,but you must for the gas coming out of a gas generator.
Quote:
But for the chlorobenzene, was the iron catalyst required or simply a way of making it more efficient?

it was required

[Edited on 30-5-2018 by CuReUS]

EPDGaffney - 29-5-2018 at 23:14

Fantastic. Thank you for everything. The code for the chemical operations is all more or less finished. I'm redoing some of the models, adding a fume hood, and then I'll just need to do the code for when the player actually interacts with the insecticide machine. That's going to be tedious, combing through a lot of other code to make sure none of that code gets called once the insecticide is used (I should have planned this better). But after that, all finished.

When I make the video, anyone is free to critique the chemistry in it. Or anything else really. Besides graphics. Not much I can do about a game made almost a decade ago using a slightly modified engine from 1996.

Video's done.

EPDGaffney - 6-6-2018 at 16:44

I tried to play like someone that was unfamiliar with this section of my mod, even though I've play-tested it hundreds of times. The video consists of the situation leading up to the chemistry section, which provides context for why you may prefer to avoid combat if possible. So, apologies but the video is long.

The chemistry stuff starts at 20 minutes, so skip to that and watch for a moment or two if that's all you want to see. I'd appreciate any ways to refine the language used there.

Also, not sure who here quite got it but although my initial vision was basically a simulation of chemistry operations, with infinite possibilities I'm afraid it was just too much to code. So, as you're role-playing in this role-playing game and you have to be proficient in science and medicine (or have the Chemist perk) to do any interacting with the chemistry stuff, it does stand to reason that your character would know what to do even if you didn't. I just hope the writing sells that feeling to players.

Here it is:
https://ufile.io/rx9ac

PS Her hair goes through the radiation suit because the game's engine is a little terrible to begin with. So, sorry for that weirdness. I should have had smaller hair.

Thanks again, everyone.

EPDGaffney - 8-6-2018 at 07:47

I didn't realise the file was that big. Here's a streamable one:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=11B-AWJ8AgeTWTDWw0Yi5QspL9p...

It's not the best quality in the world as I'm still learning about video codecs and such, but there's a HD button that makes it look decent, and it now has some annotations.

TheMrbunGee - 8-6-2018 at 08:20

I love it, it's simple, but people playing it could catch some chemistry!

Only thing I would change is "drain cleaner" to just "sulfuric acid", because if you have barrel of that stuff - I doubt it's for cleaning drains. There is less need for clean drains in fallout era in my opinion! And also sulfuric acid is quite common name for non chemist people. I think its more confusing when its called drain cleaner.

Good job! :)

EPDGaffney - 8-6-2018 at 10:55

Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee  
I love it, it's simple, but people playing it could catch some chemistry!

Thank you. That became the eventual goal, once I realised how many years it may take me to code real chemistry for this five-minute bit. My thinking was that I was after learning so much about chemistry for this that I could maybe spark a genuine interest in it for people playing my mod, and casually cram some of that knowledge into even those players that weren't going to pursue it actively but had the attention span to read what their character was doing. Fortunately, players of this type of RPG are a little more interested in that type of stuff (reading about the world and their character, that is).
Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee  
Only thing I would change is "drain cleaner" to just "sulfuric acid", because if you have barrel of that stuff - I doubt it's for cleaning drains. There is less need for clean drains in fallout era in my opinion! And also sulfuric acid is quite common name for non chemist people. I think its more confusing when its called drain cleaner.

All this is true. However, this was supposed to be from before the Fallout era of post-nuclear dystopia, when people did have drains. Just in this case, the stuff is derelict. The people operating the lab last may have relabelled the barrel and collected drain cleaner there, potentially not ever succeeding in filling it. I honestly didn't think it through 100%, so I'll consider changing it, but I do like the idea that players can learn a little about the chemistry of their household products, and that was the major reason behind using drain cleaner instead of sulphuric acid.

Thanks for watching. I really appreciate it.

TheMrbunGee - 8-6-2018 at 11:04

Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  
Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee  
I love it, it's simple, but people playing it could catch some chemistry!

Thank you. That became the eventual goal, once I realised how many years it may take me to code real chemistry for this five-minute bit. My thinking was that I was after learning so much about chemistry for this that I could maybe spark a genuine interest in it for people playing my mod, and casually cram some of that knowledge into even those players that weren't going to pursue it actively but had the attention span to read what their character was doing. Fortunately, players of this type of RPG are a little more interested in that type of stuff (reading about the world and their character, that is).
Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee  
Only thing I would change is "drain cleaner" to just "sulfuric acid", because if you have barrel of that stuff - I doubt it's for cleaning drains. There is less need for clean drains in fallout era in my opinion! And also sulfuric acid is quite common name for non chemist people. I think its more confusing when its called drain cleaner.

All this is true. However, this was supposed to be from before the Fallout era of post-nuclear dystopia, when people did have drains. Just in this case, the stuff is derelict. The people operating the lab last may have relabelled the barrel and collected drain cleaner there, potentially not ever succeeding in filling it. I honestly didn't think it through 100%, so I'll consider changing it, but I do like the idea that players can learn a little about the chemistry of their household products, and that was the major reason behind using drain cleaner instead of sulphuric acid.

Thanks for watching. I really appreciate it.


And the fact, that you wanted to make the mod this way so passionate - that's amazing!


Yea, I got your idea, but where I live drain cleaner is never sulfuric acid, it is sodium hydroxide and sometimes some additives (like aluminum, to make it look like it is working better, when it actually uses up hydroxide and renders the cleaner less effective).

You do how you think works, it just looked weird for me to see a barrel of drain cleaner. :D

EPDGaffney - 8-6-2018 at 11:38

Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee  
And the fact, that you wanted to make the mod this way so passionate - that's amazing!

Thanks. That's kind of what I do. It has its good points and its bad points. It's a compulsion that drives me mad and leads to 95% completion on almost everything I do, never quite finishing anything. But when I do finish things, people tend to be impressed. So there's that.
Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee  

Yea, I got your idea, but where I live drain cleaner is never sulfuric acid, it is sodium hydroxide

Well, I didn't even know there were different types, really. I just thought they were all 'drain cleaner'. My recent research says there are two main groups, that you should never mix them, and that one of these groups is mostly sulphuric acid.
Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee  
and sometimes some additives (like aluminum, to make it look like it is working better, when it actually uses up hydroxide and renders the cleaner less effective).

Oops, haha.

MJ101 - 18-6-2018 at 07:05

I would put protective gear in a locker and have the player find an odd looking key.
They would have to save it and use the key to open the locker to get at the protective gear.

Of course there would be small tears (cuts) in the suit. ;) They would have had to have picked up the roll of duct tape to repair the suit.

And once they realize it, they would go back, only to see a small insect taking the tape into a burrow in the ground, never to be seen again. :P

Best of luck with everything. :)

EPDGaffney - 18-6-2018 at 12:48

Haha I like it.