Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Laws regulating chemicals for a tiny home lab

pharm-phreak - 23-4-2018 at 03:22

Hi,

Can anyone shed some light on what are the legal factors to keep in mind for setting up a tiny lab space in my rented home? No hazardous waste to be generated, no chemicals from DEA List I to be used. Just want to have a very basic setup with a hotplate, glassware, DI water (pre-purchased), GRAS chemicals and some bases.

I'm based out of CA. Am I allowed to store, handle and experiment with these chemicals on a purely non-commercial basis in the comfort of my home? Any pointers / advice would be hugely appreciated! :)

[Edited on 23-4-2018 by pharm-phreak]

LearnedAmateur - 23-4-2018 at 03:40

Welcome to the forums, as long as what you’re doing is legal then you shouldn’t have anything to worry about - check local laws as to which glassware and reagents/products you can own without a license and all will be fine. I know that some places ban certain bits (like that stupid law in Texas where you can’t own some flasks and other equipment without a permit), but you’ll be able to find that information easily online.

For general experimenting, science away! I’m not familiar with US laws but Cali seems like a pretty relaxed place so I wouldn’t get stressed out about police busting down your door after ordering an RBF or some potassium nitrate.

woelen - 23-4-2018 at 04:16

Good to read that you want to do some experimenting at home. Enjoy it!

As stated above, no need to worry about the police lifting you from your bed in the middle of the night, as long as you don't do any stupid things.

Try to work on a microscale (test tubes, a few ml per experiment). That reduces the amount of waste produced in your experiments and if smelly gases are produced, then at least the amounts are small. It also reduces risks of poisoning, fire, or other nasty things which can happen.

VSEPR_VOID - 23-4-2018 at 04:51

You should be fine in California but it really comes down to what you are making or working with. If you are storing explosive compounds than you are more likely to be harassed, searched, or investigated than if you are making copper salts.

JJay - 23-4-2018 at 05:54

I have read stories about the police obtaining search warrants over nothing more than solvent and glassware purchases, but things are a little different when you purchase ether in 20L drums or buy 50L 3-neck flasks with heating mantles.

woelen - 23-4-2018 at 07:17

@JJay: This is fear-mongering. If you order general solvents, general chemicals, or glassware in normal amounts/sizes for private use (e.g. 100's of ml, 100's of grams), then there is no reason to be worried.

This is the case in every (more or less) free nation. Police has something better to do than checking out on persons who order a few 100 ml flasks and a few 100's of grams of chemicals. Only if there also are other indications/flags (e.g. past drug-abuse, being active on drugs-forums, ordering machines for making tablets, ordering specific illegal items), the ordering of glassware or chemicals may trigger a request for getting more info.

Where I live, there are no restrictions on glassware at all, except for very large things. If I want to buy a 20 liter flask with a suitable heating mantle and a suitable big size receiver, then I will have to fill in some paperwork.

Sulaiman - 23-4-2018 at 07:52

I'm in UK so different but similar;

I imagine that large quantities (gallons) of flammable solvents would invalidate rental and/or fire rules/regulations.

Consider what would upset/annoy/concern you if neighbours had similar hobbies
- apply those considerations to yourself and you should be OK.

Until you get to the stage where refluxing and/or distillation is required,
chemistry can be performed in normal soda-lime glass unless heating is required
in which case Pyrex would be better but not necessary.

In my case, the most important things to consider with kitchen chemistry are;
NEVER (unless you are really sure) use chemistry stuff for cookery.
Unless no one else uses the kitchen, keep all of your chemistry stuff in one area, and crucially,
take care to not make stains or burn marks - financial and/or emotional costs can be high !

LearnedAmateur - 23-4-2018 at 08:34

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  

take care to not make stains or burn marks - financial and/or emotional costs can be high !


Oh yes, my mother was never pleased to discover many tiny holes in my clothing items and strange bits of damage to pieces of furniture/the stovetop. One of the most important things to consider when you get started with chemistry, especially with more corrosive reagents..

Bert - 23-4-2018 at 13:01

Check your lease. It says things about activities forbidden on the premises, READ THE FINE PRINT.
Quote:

I’m not familiar with US laws but Cali seems like a pretty relaxed place so I wouldn’t get stressed out about police busting down your door after ordering an RBF or some potassium nitrate. 


(Coastal, urban) California is relaxed about- Hemp? Expressing your non standard gender/religion/politics/form of artistic expression? Maybe.

Chemicals? Not so much.

It's not quite Texas, but they ARE nervous about chemicals, explosives, synthesis of meth or other street drugs- and most particularly, FIRE dangers (whole state catches fire if you give it a cross look) unlicenzed HazMat storage or activities which relate to toxic waste issues.

CA residents go to AZ if they want to build fireworks, that's why the Western Pyrotechnic Association winter blast is in Lake Havasu AZ, but most people there are from CA. They can do hands on stuff at the convention, at home they risk prosecution.

BromicAcid - 23-4-2018 at 13:47

My contract to purchase my house specifically has a clause forbidding 'dangerous' chemicals in the home, if such chemicals are found then I am required to pay the balance of my mortgage immediately. My homeowners insurance has a similar clause on dangerous chemicals voiding my insurance. My renters insurance in my previous apartment also had something similar. Read carefully, basically if something happens you're screwed.

aga - 23-4-2018 at 14:08

Quote: Originally posted by pharm-phreak  
... No hazardous waste to be generated ...

I think that's the main one.

Wanting to Phreak Pharm is worrying.

Presumably that's why the username was chosen.

Well, whatever you do, try not annoy your neighbours

aga - 23-4-2018 at 14:12

Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid  
My contract to purchase my house specifically has a clause forbidding 'dangerous' chemicals in the home, if such chemicals are found then I am required to pay the balance of my mortgage immediately. ...

Out of interest (no pun intended) what would happen if you did breach the Terms and not pay immediately ?

Bert - 23-4-2018 at 15:04

You are good friends, that's why they gave you a loan. You go out for a beer with the lender, explain your side of the story and have a few laughs, then everything is normal again.

Oh wait. A bank?

Being in default on terms of a contract usually = the bank owns the property, you lost the payments made so far, and depending on the fine print, are probably liable for any profits the bank didn't make that they were expecting to make.

If the bank turns around and sells your place quickly at a loss to get out from under, they still want to be made whole of their loss from the contract.

The bank gets paid off by insurance. Then the insurance company lawyers come looking to get what they can out of you... They were on retainer anyway, might as well make them do some work.

You are declaring bankruptcy.

[Edited on 4-23-2018 by Bert]

zed - 23-4-2018 at 16:16

Avoid the appearance of impropriety.

Chemical sales are recorded and monitored. Assuming each of your suppliers has a Chemical Handlers License; their books are periodically inspected.

Depending upon your geographical location, and the control agent making the inspection, your purchases may or may not, attract attention.

If and when, the government comes a-calling, they may have paperwork for every chemical purchase you have ever made.

A large variety of chemicals, can pass though your hands, over the course of years. To the suspicious eye, it might look like you are making Quaaludes, or GHB, or some other obscure material that you had never really considered. Might be some agent has a bug up his butt about napthtalene..... You don't know.

On paper, you can look like a bad guy, even if you aren't.

Behave accordingly.



[Edited on 24-4-2018 by zed]

[Edited on 24-4-2018 by zed]

Reboot - 23-4-2018 at 17:14

Interestingly, most chemical safety laws in the US only apply to workplaces. Home labs are one of those odd little niche areas where it just hasn't occurred to lawmakers that they might want to regulate it. We have a responsibility to keep it that way by being careful and respectful of our neighbors/environment.

Pollution laws do apply, and can be a complicated thing to comply with. If you run a reaction that produces waste mercury, then throw it in the trash or dump it down the drain, you can be sure the wrath of the gods will fall on you if word gets out. Limit reactions sizes. Avoid highly toxic reagents. If you have a fume hood, think about whether the exhaust from it might be toxic. Dumping toxin laden air into the open atmosphere may or may not be legally OK, depending on substance, concentration, and local laws.

The good news though is that, on the personal hobby level, there's remarkably little regulation. Equipment and chemicals (except for some things like obvious drug precursors) have never been easier to get. And as long as you don't bother anybody (including giving them a reason to worry about what you might be up to) you can pretty much do as you please in most jurisdictions.

On the practical side, be sure your experiments are appropriate for your work space. If you want to grow copper sulfate crystals in your rental apartment, go for it. If you want to do a potentially violent reflux with smelly solvents, I strongly advise waiting until you own your own home. Be ready for spills (and even fires.)

Bert - 23-4-2018 at 19:10

Quote: Originally posted by Reboot  
Interestingly, most chemical safety laws in the US only apply to workplaces. And as long as you don't bother anybody (including giving them a reason to worry about what you might be up to) you can pretty much do as you please in most jurisdictions.

<snip>

On the practical side, be sure your experiments are appropriate for your work space. If you want to grow copper sulfate crystals in your rental apartment, go for it. If you want to do a potentially violent reflux with smelly solvents, I strongly advise waiting until you own your own home. Be ready for spills (and even fires.)



This can be reduced to a much shorter set of instructions:

Don't wave your dick in their face. ("They" being the authorities having jurisdiction)

Don't piss off your neighbors. (That would include not putting them at risk)



[Edited on 4-24-2018 by Bert]

LearnedAmateur - 23-4-2018 at 21:59

Quote: Originally posted by zed  
Avoid the appearance of impropriety.

Chemical sales are recorded and monitored. Assuming each of your suppliers has a Chemical Handlers License; their books are periodically inspected.

Depending upon your geographical location, and the control agent making the inspection, your purchases may or may not, attract attention.

If and when, the government comes a-calling, they may have paperwork for every chemical purchase you have ever made.

A large variety of chemicals, can pass though your hands, over the course of years. To the suspicious eye, it might look like you are making Quaaludes, or GHB, or some other obscure material that you had never really considered. Might be some agent has a bug up his butt about napthtalene..... You don't know.


Surely that depends on what you’re buying and where you’re getting it from though? I mean ordering a couple of hundred grams of potassium permanganate from some independent seller on eBay for domestic use wouldn’t be recorded compared to ordering like 5L of concentrated nitric acid. As we all know, ‘chemicals’ is a broad term so there must be some quantitative/qualitative limit to what can be investigated? Like what are you going to do illegally with 10 kilos of baking soda?

[Edited on 24-4-2018 by LearnedAmateur]

zed - 24-4-2018 at 13:58

I'm not saying you "will" have trouble. I'm just saying..... consider it as a possibility.

E-bay sellers, who are not Chemical Handlers, are not required to co-operate with the government, or keep records. None-the-less, E-bay documents your every transaction, and THEIR records are an open-book to government agencies.

Dual use, is kind of the rule in chemistry. Many seemingly innocuous items, can be diverted obnoxious uses.

So..... Something you buy (or some combination of things) may arouse alarm.

A while back, we here at ScienceMadness, were being bombarded with questions about acquiring (or making) Phenol. I thought nothing of it. Might have been helpful in my own obtuse way.

Within the year, Federal Agents had detained a suspect for purchasing a fairly modest quantity of Phenol.
Toluene is converted to TNT with difficulty. Phenol is converted to the explosive Picric Acid, with relative ease.
It was suspected the gentleman in question, had evil intentions.

Buy a hundred reagents, amongst them, over the course of time..... H2O2, H2SO4, Acetone..... Stuff every, high school, university, or amature lab might have. Just stuff. But, to an alert agent, quiet possibly dangerous stuff.

Not impossible someone might want to talk to you.

JJay - 24-4-2018 at 14:58

In general, there is a duty to abstain from infringing upon your neighbor's right to quiet enjoyment of their own property. That means no catching their homes on fire, no waking them up in the middle of the night with explosions, no smells, not poisoning the water, etc.

Different jurisdictions may have fire codes that you may be required to obey. I'm not exactly sure what the penalties are for breaking them, but I am told that they can be severe. While most environmental regulations don't apply to a home lab, a few do.

pharm-phreak - 26-4-2018 at 00:47

Thanks a lot everyone for your valuable inputs! Like I said, its nothing heavy, nothing hazardous, nothing noisy, nothing smelly, nothing toxic, nothing violent or exothermic. Pretty safe GRAS stuff, with no dangerous acids or solvents. If I go ahead, I'll only be experimenting in milliliter scales. I know agencies/neighbors/landlords tend to get paranoid on the slightest whiff - so just wanted to know the laws before deciding to venture in this direction. Thanks again! ;)

LearnedAmateur - 26-4-2018 at 03:44

You should be fine then, I’m kind of in the same boat, scale wise anyway and only buying a couple of hundred grams/up to a litre of reagents at a time. I live in a rented flat and do some pretty dangerous reactions when performed on larger scales (ones that generate noticeable amounts of NO2 and are strongly exothermic for instance) and have stuff like 96% sulphuric acid and highly volatile/flammable solvents, but nothing that is overly hazardous when I’m only adding in 10 or 20 millilitres at a time.

If you were to do these sorts of reactions then from experience I’d say that they’d be undetectable to anyone outside of your lab space, I’ve been living at the same place and doing chemistry there for a couple of years and nobody has raised any concerns. It’s not like you’re throwing out massive quantities of gas or creating grams of explosive compounds so there really isn’t much danger involved outside of potential equipment failure. Even when generating, for instance NO2 or HCl, on the g/mL scale, you’d have a hard time detecting the smells yourself unless you put your nose right up to the flask.

Melgar - 26-4-2018 at 04:22

Quote: Originally posted by LearnedAmateur  
Like what are you going to do illegally with 10 kilos of baking soda?


Ever heard of crack cocaine? ;)

Seriously though, if you're not causing problems for anyone, you'll probably be fine. However, sometimes nosy neighbors will call the police. Or you'll be moving into a new place, and keeping your chemistry stuff in your car because you aren't able to set up a lab yet, then you'll get pulled over by a cop who sees the chemistry stuff, gets suspicious, and tears apart all your stuff looking for something illegal. Or maybe you have an annoying roommate who finds some of your chemistry stuff in the garage, calls the fire department to ask what to do about it, and then it escalates into a terrorism scare. Some of these things have happened to me. If anything like that happens to you, it's important to keep everything neat, and make sure all your chemicals are labeled. Unlabeled chemicals cause police to become much more concerned than you'd expect.

Phosgenetimemachine - 29-7-2018 at 03:45

Once more,congrats on your new hobby of interest.I live in Northern CA,and have purchased a fair amount of both assorted glass and various chems,although I have not recently checked(been probably 10 years since i last did)any flask that you may transport yourself(final purchaser)with a volume of 1000ml or more should be accompanied by its receipt.....and that is the only information given to me by a somewhat renowned chem distributor out of Sacramento....,but beware I have been investigated,but that was an entirely different situation,with persons who had less than innocent intentions..good luck!enjoy!

[Edited on 29-7-2018 by Phosgenetimemachine]

S.C. Wack - 29-7-2018 at 06:47

The relevant laws would be fire codes and the lease which I imagine wasn't written to violate conditions in the owner's mortgage and insurance.

MJ101 - 29-7-2018 at 07:16

@pharm-phreak: You need to figure out if what you intend to do in your home lab can become dangerous.

If you're not producing toxic / noxious fumes, then you should be fairly safe. The problem arises when your neighbors find out.
They may panic and call the authorities because they think you have a drug lab. Or worse.

That will force the landlord to act, and possibly evict you because of insurance regulations. (As S.C. Wack mentioned)

Be careful. And be prepared to be questioned about it by Law Enforcement.

Doped-Al2O3-fusion - 31-7-2018 at 08:04

I'm in the same situation. I live in a rented town home/apartment and my lab is in my home office. I talk to my apartment management on a near daily basis, so they know me well and they know my activities. I apologized for the smell I produced recently from making copper sulfide, which was a pretty brief incident. I normally contain the fumes quite well, but a little accidental slip caused the fumes to escape. However, the smells I produced were annoying upstairs to my wife and kids because the balcony door was open. The smell that the apartment management smelled wasn't me, but a dead animal. They told me they didn't smell anything and none of my neighbors were bothered.

Just work on micro-scale as suggested by everyone else. I typically do everything in test tubes or small flasks.

Also, be EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS and aware of how each chemical will react.--especially peroxides and organic solvents. Read up on MSDS literature for everything you handle.

I'll again express extreme caution when it comes to peroxides and organic solvents. Here's a video of what can happen completely by accident. It also demonstrates why working micro-scale is much more safe.

Short video demonstrating the power of an accidental byproduct.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2WSAgKFjrk

This video has more explanation as to how this mistake happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMKmHJf2T0Y&t=137s

So far, the feds have not raided my home for those videos. LOL. Seriously though, be safe.

CaptainPike - 2-8-2018 at 12:47

Good stuff, this thread.

I out right inquired of a friendly-neighborhood-chemical-supplier, "do you report sales of this kind of thing"? (Stuff like benzene and sodium borohydride)

He said that he absolutely does not. However, if the DEA were to put a person under investigation, everything he had bought online would be not only obtainable to them but flashing red in their internal documentation(and bullet points in their forthcoming indictments, etc.)


And in America, [previously land of the free] there is the "DEA orange book" A lengthy document, but the last few pages show a threshold which is "allowed" which is interesting reading. Most reasonable things that you might have a Liter/kilo or less of, are refreshingly tolerated. Things like ephedrine show a zero, ninguno está permitido.

https://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/schedules/orangebook/oran...


[Edited on 2-8-2018 by CaptainPike]

AJKOER - 3-8-2018 at 12:10

Good idea have a lab book and record all your innocent work (which can otherwise be easily misrepresented to a jury of total science empty heads general full of biases, fears,...).

I do recall a local state regulations requiring all produced chemicals to be labelled (an infraction which makes it easy to arrest drug cooks and the like, and even innocent you, if do not label stuff).

If you make anything energetic, produce in small quantities and use it up immediately as you need a bunker to legally store such items especially in more than small quantities.

[Edited on 3-8-2018 by AJKOER]

titansupply247 - 1-11-2018 at 10:54

america has to many rules! I from east Europe and can have large lab with no problem. If I lived in USA I would be out of business! :cool: