Firstly, thanks to everyone who helped me out on my previous question. If one were to smoke bracken fern, could its active carcinogen, Ptaquiloside,
still be carcinogenic...or does heat denature it?....i ask this because i find that carcinogens when heated gvenerally become more powerful, but i
cant understand how something can be completely burnt up and still be able to perform the mechanism which alters DNA. Thanks againUnintentionalChaos - 22-3-2007 at 22:44
Smoke? As in there is some crazy theory going around that it's a drug? If so, I can't possibly concieve what in it would have any effects. People
worldwide eat this as a food. This would be as bad as the whole banana peel rumor and the sassafras leaf crap (its the thickening agent in Louisiana
gumbo for crying out loud). Maybe that isn't what you meant, so I'm sorry if it wasn't.
I looked up the structure and I'm not sure too sure if the molecule would be easily susceptible to heat damage or if the compound can vaporize and
enter the body that way. Seeing as how it is half glucose, it would probably burn instead of vaporizing, though. As for carcinogens, hell, grilled
food is carcinogenic. Smoke is carcinogenic. Bracken is not really high up there on the list to start with anyway.
[Edited on 3-23-07 by UnintentionalChaos]
[Edited on 3-23-07 by UnintentionalChaos]chochu3 - 22-3-2007 at 23:07
Substances all have different vapor pressures, so when heated they go into gas form. They can be over heated and turn into carbon which in that case
will leave them unactive (alkaloids).DrP - 23-3-2007 at 02:28
Quote:
Originally posted by Cerberus
i cant understand how something can be completely burnt up and still be able to perform the mechanism which alters DNA.
I've always understood it as the free radicals in the smoke that are so reactive they damage and alter things (like lung tissue). When a substance is
burnt the molecules are all smashed to bits leaving lots of reactive broken radicals which are very bad for you. Ok, in compleate combustion of
hydrocarbons for example we get get CO2 and water, but nothing is really that perfect - the smoke always contains lots of broken half reacted
molecules just waiting to further react with something.
I was wrong about nicotine being a carcinogen (just highly toxic) so I am suddenly lacking confidence in my knowledge of this, but I am pretty
confident it's the free radicals that are to blame in the smoke.
As an after thought - The fact they are in the smoke may also suggest that they are hot - thus this will further inrease their reactivity (faster
moving molecules) and their ability to damage.12AX7 - 23-3-2007 at 08:19
Yeah, but the smoke cools down and reacts with itself.
If free radicals and heat were the concern rather than anything in the tobacco, mouth cancer would be much more common in smokers than chewers.
Timunionised - 24-3-2007 at 06:07
There are lots of carcinogenic compounds in smoke; formaldehdyde, benzopyran and N nitroso amines for a start.
There's no good reason to assume that the ptaquiloside from bracken would be totally destroyed (after all, enough nicotine survives smoking to keep
people hooked) so that would add to the brew. Breathing smoke is bad for you, starting with a toxic plant won't help.Pyridinium - 25-3-2007 at 08:23
Quote:
Originally posted by Cerberus
but i cant understand how something can be completely burnt up and still be able to perform the mechanism which alters DNA.
Quite simple: it's not completely burnt up.
There's a big difference between a smoldering cigarette and a roaring, oxygen-fed incinerator.
Example:
Pyrolysis of benzene -----------> biphenyl + other products
Complete combustion of benzene ---------------> CO2 + H2O
Tell me you're not really going to smoke a fern.
If it's a friend, please discourage him.Cerberus - 25-3-2007 at 22:39
Pyridinium
Certainly not....i ask in relation to a research project im currently doing.....im just trying to find information on various aspects of the
substance......Pyridinium - 26-3-2007 at 09:29
Quote:
Originally posted by Cerberus
Pyridinium
Certainly not....i ask in relation to a research project im currently doing.....im just trying to find information on various aspects of the
substance......
I wasn't trying to be condescending, I just couldn't resist. The title of the thread was like a beacon.
A study of the pyrolysis products of bracken fern would be quite interesting. I'd love to hear the results of spec analysis, if available. Keep us
posted on your results.Cerberus - 28-3-2007 at 22:23
an enormous amount of information can be found on pubmed....i have another question, but ill create a new posting...have a lookPyridinium - 29-3-2007 at 11:49
Quote:
Originally posted by Cerberus
an enormous amount of information can be found on pubmed....i have another question, but ill create a new posting...have a look
I'm not sure what "pubmed" you're using, but a search for "bracken" and "pyrolysis" on pubmed returns 0 results.
It makes me wonder why you asked us about this, if you didn't need the information in the first place?
Ptaquiloside is a glucoside, which gives a good starting place for the chemistry of heat breakdown. But you already knew that.
