Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Buying chemicals

thechemdood - 11-3-2018 at 06:17

Hey dudes
Im from germany and im afraid of getting a house search when i buy watched chemicals.
Now my question(more on the german chemists here) is how is your opinion?
I would like to buy phthalic anydride,acetyl chloride and n-butylamin from amazon and a other internet website..
do i have to expect a home seearch if i buy that?

Sulaiman - 11-3-2018 at 06:52

By posting here on SM you are entitled to one free search - even if you do not buy any chemicals.

You are doomed to a life of paranoia.

OR

Buy, use, synthesize, keep and discuss all legal substances,
any more is at your discretion.

If any members do have means of obtaining 'questionable' chemicals,
they are unlikely to reveal sources to a stranger of unknown abilities.

Many chemicals can be sourced OTC, there are many discussions here.

The SM search engine is weak, to search SM I use Google,
in the search bar type
site:www.sciencemadness.org PutAnySearchTermHere

thechemdood - 11-3-2018 at 07:24

I dont now if you understand me right?!
I only asked for a meaning if i could get a house search if i buy this chems from the internet.

thechemdood - 11-3-2018 at 07:38

by the way
thanks for your answer

Reboot - 11-3-2018 at 12:38

This might be a good place to start:

https://echa.europa.eu/substances-restricted-under-reach

I would also research any chemical you are considering ordering and see if it is considered suspicious due to potential use in making drugs, poisons, or explosives. Research. Whatever the restrictions are in Germany, I'm sure you can find out what they are.

woelen - 11-3-2018 at 13:12

I doubt whether this is relevant information for a home chemist, wanting to use small amounts of certain chemicals. REACH is about the marketing and use of chemicals in consumer products or industrial products, such as cleaners, paints, fuels, photographics, and whatever hobby, domestic or industrial uses one can think of. Usually, such chemicals are not marketed as such to the public, but are (part of) a product under a brand name and a general product class. An example is CH2Cl2, used in paint stripper, or copper arsenate in wood treatment products.

The OP mentions phtalic anhydride and acetyl chloride. I see no issues in ordering these. Acetyl chloride is quite nasty (it is corrosive, due to its reaction with water which produces HCl and acetic acid), but if it is packaged well and shipped safely, then I see no problem for this as well. I myself ordered this online from a german seller: https://shop.es-drei.de/chloride/1299/acetylchlorid-min.-98?...

n-bytylamine I do not know. Is this a common drug-precursor? I don't know. If it is a drug-precursor, then I would be reluctant to order it. If it is not, then I would not expect much issues from it, provided it is well-packaged and shipped safely. I, however, would prefer the salt form (n-butylamine.HCl). The latter is much easier to keep around and certainly is less smelly.
The company Es-drei also has n-butylamine, listed as a category 1 chemical (meaning that no strict regulations apply), but if it is a drug-precursor, then be careful. Es-drei only looks at toxicity and environmental impact in its classification of chemicals. Category 1 chemicals only are minor toxins (they can be very corrosive, such as chlorosulfonic acid, but in the environment they are very quickly neutralized).

Assured Fish - 11-3-2018 at 22:13

Might i ask, what would be so bad about getting a visit from some nice gentlemen in blue.
What Sulaiman was trying to get at is that we have all had to deal with the cops from time to time, atleast those of us who peruse chemistry from a more practical perspective.
If you are not up to anything illegal and you keep a relatively clean workspace and are willing to share with the cops what you are doing and nerd them out a little bit, i think you will find they would rather just leave you alone.

Unfortunately dealing with the police has just become an unwanted necessity for us amateur chemists.
There are certainly ways around having to deal with them at all but then you would also be cutting yourself off from certain resources.
As for your list, phthalic anhydride is unlikely to raise any eyebrows if you order if from ebay, Acetyl chloride might but it would depend on the quantity, n-butylamine as far as i know has absolutely no use to clandestine chemistry beyond some exotic Synthetic cannabinoids and even then i dont think there are any regulations or anything on the material.

Why not just go ahead and buy them and then let the cops show up and show them your work space and talk their head off until they are itching to get out the door.

BJ68 - 12-3-2018 at 03:58

Quote: Originally posted by Assured Fish  

Why not just go ahead and buy them and then let the cops show up and show them your work space and talk their head off until they are itching to get out the door.


Because, they will not ask politely and they have a search warrant and if they find nothing, they will look for other things (in German: "Zufallsfunde"), because in the German Law there is nothing like "The fruit of the poisonous tree." which means that very thing what they find (and is against some laws) can be used against you. Additionally they will confiscate your computer and the stuff what belongs to it.
I know from at least one case, where a lawyer of the "victim" was present at the execution of the search warrant. As the lawyer complains about the search, one of the cops said to him, he should shut his mouth because otherwise they will evacuate the whole street and the bill will go to his client and in other cases they played the "waste-card"...if you give not consent to the seizure of the chemicals, than they will charge you for the disposal or they call the chemical unit of the firefighters, which will bill you.

Bj68

[Edited on 12-3-2018 by BJ68]

[Edited on 12-3-2018 by BJ68]

overvoltage - 7-4-2018 at 11:49

Quote: Originally posted by Assured Fish  
Might i ask, what would be so bad about getting a visit from some nice gentlemen in blue.


Police searches here in Germany are no joke.
They will never show up and ask nicley what you are up to. They will kick in your door at 3AM guns blazing, take everything that is remotley suspicious and your computer and your chances of getiting anything back even if nothing is found are slim.
Also if they dont find what they are looking for they will search for anything that is even remotley illegal, so you have to pay the police expences.
For example I know of a case where they found stickers with left wing solgans on them and took this as evidence that the person must be in a left wing terror group.



[Edited on 7-4-2018 by overvoltage]

aga - 7-4-2018 at 13:17

Pure Fantasy.

German Poilce are very professional, in the main.

A simple fact that Fantasists forgot to research is that Police do not put people in prison.

That's something that happens after legal stuff in a court.

Of course, if the 'suspect' offers reasonable offence, the police can kill them.

Basically Idiots get killed. It's Evolution at work.

Tsjerk - 7-4-2018 at 22:55

German police is terrible, if it comes to raids. They might not put you on prison but they will make sure you get a half year salary bill if they think you did something wrong.

The Germans have a terrible claim culture, not as bad as in the USA, but getting close. I know of a case of a guy pushing his car up the driveway of a closed car garage at night, because his car stopped working and he didn't want to pay for the night road service.

The car garage owner was a bit reluctant but let him in and he fixed the car for little money (mistake was made here), when the driver asked for the toilet he was send into the garage, told to turn on the light, and to watch out not to fall into the montage pit.

Ofcourse the guy didn't turn on the light, broke his leg in the pit, and because the garage owner was charging money for the repair it was seen as a working place accident.

The garage owner ended up paying everything from medical bills to salary of the guy being unable to work.

End of the story ; the garage owner went bankrupt and three employees lost their jobs. All because of one cheap ass idiot and the insurance companies who got the change to claim the damages with the garage owner instead of billing everyone in Germany 0.01 cent more to cover.

If a fire alarm goes of in an university building , ofcourse the fire squad will come. But if they find only one person who has a bit of alcohol in their blood, the person with the alcohol will have to pay (not that they make more expenses by coming; they where already there anyway). They don't charge the actual costs (some petrol and some wear and tear), they charge the man hours as well. They actually carry multiple breathalyzers and checking everyone is standard procedure.

Ok, you shouldn't be drunk in a laboratory, but it can get quite "funny". Sometime when I was celebrating a collegeau's successful PhD defense, we were drinking in between the labs, when an alarm went off because someone opened an autoclave a bit early.
The fire squad had us do alcohol tests, and actually filed a report stating we had to cover the costs.... Happily there were some big shot professors there and they made it go away, but it would have been a 100 euro bill for all twenty people there.

aga - 7-4-2018 at 23:43

Again, it is not the police who lay down those large fines/costs, it's a court.

What is a "PhD defense" ?
(i have no experience of how things work in a University)

Tsjerk - 8-4-2018 at 00:19

About the police and the court, you are wrong on both, it's the law maker ;) Trias politica.

After a PhD research you write your thesis, which as a very last step you have to defend against a certain group of professors, they will ask you questions about your work. After this defence you become Dr.

brubei - 8-4-2018 at 08:40

what is your name ?
what is your thesis ?
what is the color of bromothymol at ph 7 ?

aga - 8-4-2018 at 09:27

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
... as a very last step you have to defend against a certain group of professors...

WOW !

I never knew that you had to Fight for a PhD !


[Edited on 8-4-2018 by aga]

BJ68 - 9-4-2018 at 00:06

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
... as a very last step you have to defend against a certain group of professors...

WOW !

I never knew that you had to Fight for a PhD !


[Edited on 8-4-2018 by aga]



It´s a kind of oral exam....where you present the results of you work on the thesis and where you get questions from the professors.

See https://www.cc.gatech.edu/faculty/ashwin/wisdom/what-is-a-th...
https://www.gradschoolhub.com/faqs/what-is-a-thesis-defense/

Bj68

Tsjerk - 9-4-2018 at 03:41

After the fight you did to get to the point of defending your PhD it is a laugh, enough to get you nervous but nothing more than that, if everything went well you are the single person in the world who knows most about the topic.

@ brubei; I will tell you if you pm me. I didn't finish my PhD though. I stopped because I didn't want to stay in science; bad salary, bad secondaries, bad security. I do have one publication and (possibly) three publications to come.


Nice story; when defending in the Netherlands you get to bring "paranimpen". You can pick any two people who can answer questions for you when you black out. It is tradition though to bring the two strongest persons you know because in the early days a PhD defense could become violent because of strong opinions.

Blue

[Edited on 9-4-2018 by Tsjerk]

Mr. Rogers - 16-4-2018 at 07:02

Quote: Originally posted by Assured Fish  
Might i ask, what would be so bad about getting a visit from some nice gentlemen in blue.


Is this a serious post? You **want** to let police into your house when you've done nothing wrong?

What exactly would someone have to gain by doing this? Do you think any attorney would ***EVER*** advise ***ANY*** client to do this?

Very, very confused....

happyfooddance - 16-4-2018 at 09:03

Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers  
Quote: Originally posted by Assured Fish  
Might i ask, what would be so bad about getting a visit from some nice gentlemen in blue.


Is this a serious post? You **want** to let police into your house when you've done nothing wrong?

What exactly would someone have to gain by doing this? Do you think any attorney would ***EVER*** advise ***ANY*** client to do this?

Very, very confused....


Some people love men in uniform...

LearnedAmateur - 16-4-2018 at 14:04

Luckily I’ve never had to deal with the police about my chemistry, usually in the UK, it’s about complaints (strange smells or occurrences) unless you’re part of the very few that willingly invite them to look around.

As long as you’re not doing anything illegal, I have no reason to see why they should be involved. Like anything criminal, they should only be contacted when crimes are committed, IMO. Seeing as most chemistry is legal, and as long as you’re abiding by the local laws, it’s a waste of their and your time to contact them when they can be investigating actual and serious illegal activities.

[Edited on 16-4-2018 by LearnedAmateur]

roXefeller - 17-4-2018 at 08:44

Quote: Originally posted by LearnedAmateur  
Luckily I’ve never had to deal with the police about my chemistry, usually in the UK, it’s about complaints (strange smells or occurrences) unless you’re part of the very few that willingly invite them to look around.

As long as you’re not doing anything illegal, I have no reason to see why they should be involved. Like anything criminal, they should only be contacted when crimes are committed, IMO. Seeing as most chemistry is legal, and as long as you’re abiding by the local laws, it’s a waste of their and your time to contact them when they can be investigating actual and serious illegal activities.

[Edited on 16-4-2018 by LearnedAmateur]


As in science, not all conjectures hold true when tried in an experiment. Other factors show up at times that you didn't consider significant. I wish the world was always and everywhere as you described. Not all localities will behave to that standard and one chemist's experiences won't always match another's. I think my locality behaves well, but seeing what liberties are lost in some European nations, a German chemist can't project my model onto his domain. It would better suit the OP to benchmark his own locality, whether from German members or other German sources (with a keen eye on veracity if aga's fantasy conjecture is true).

PirateDocBrown - 18-4-2018 at 07:10

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
... as a very last step you have to defend against a certain group of professors...

WOW !

I never knew that you had to Fight for a PhD !


[Edited on 8-4-2018 by aga]


Oh, yes, this is true in the US as well. You spend years doing the work for and writing your dissertation, (usually on the basis of several peer-reviewed papers that you do the work for, but don't get the credit for), then you have to get quizzed on its conclusions by your own professors. Only then do you get a PhD. They don't let just anyone into the club.

At least in the sciences, anyway. I don't know anything about the liberal arts or other fields.