Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Cyanide & other poisons strictly controlled while 990mg/ml nicotine isn't!

RogueRose - 28-2-2018 at 18:45

So I thought that 100mg/ml nicotine was too toxic to sell to the general public, especially online where the only age verification is a drop down check box where you identify your birth year. Now I just came across 990mg/ml nicotine in quantities from 10ml up to 1500ml! This just seems like asking for trouble since it can pass through skin (and IDK what the solvent being used is as it isnt' listed - it may make it more permeable on the skin - hopefully not DMSO). So what happens when a drop gets on the skin, that would be about 20-60mg which is enough to kill a 155lb person as per the LD50/50 numbers.

So when are we going to see major issues with this? It always astounds me what compounds are focused on while other more deadly/dangerous ones are left alone. Could it POSSIBLY be the lobbying behind the product?

Corrosive Joeseph - 1-3-2018 at 02:36

I would put it down to the fact that the people who make laws about 'chemicals' actually know nothing about them


/CJ

LearnedAmateur - 1-3-2018 at 03:29

Cyanide dosing has been a common route of poisoning in the past and has been implicated in several high profile murders like the Chicago Tylenol incident, whereas nicotine isn’t really viewed in the same light. That’s the only reason I can think of really, plus the fact that cyanide doesn’t really have any ‘legitimate’ uses outside of industry, one of the reasons why so many chemicals are banned or heavily regulated for individual sale, and can be replaced by other methods (e.g. gold extraction which uses starch instead of cyanide). On the other hand, nicotine is used as a commercial additive and as an insecticide thus in a way can be seen as more valuable to society, one major example being e-juice formulations since many people make it themselves.

Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention that the use of cyanide for gold mining is incredibly damaging for the environment, even on small scale (like a small private team) hence why governments see it as necessary to limit its use as much as possible. It is especially prevalent when you look at illegal mines who obviously aren’t subject to regulation and don’t care about the secondary effects, from where they dispose of extremely hazardous waste into rivers and pits, where it leeches into the groundwater thus killing aquatic life and seriously damaging the local ecosystems.

Edit: what is with my spelling today?

[Edited on 1-3-2018 by LearnedAmateur]

Tsjerk - 1-3-2018 at 12:52

Nicotine toxicity is highly exaggerated, and fatal intoxications are rare.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3880486/
Quote:
The literature reports on fatal nicotine intoxications suggest that the lower limit of lethal nicotine blood concentrations is about 2 mg/L, corresponding to 4 mg/L plasma, a concentration that is around 20-fold higher than that caused by intake of 60 mg nicotine. Thus, a careful estimate suggests that the lower limit causing fatal outcomes is 0.5–1 g of ingested nicotine, corresponding to an oral LD50 of 6.5–13 mg/kg.


[Edited on 1-3-2018 by Tsjerk]

phlogiston - 1-3-2018 at 13:23

In Europe, only solutions containing up to 20 mg/mL may be sold to the public.

This is still enough that a 10 mL bottle of e-liquid contains more than a lethal dose, but as Tserk said fatal intoxications are still rare. One of the reasons is that one of the bodies first reactions to ingesting a large dose of nicotine is vomiting. Reports from poison centres clearly show that accidental and intentional cases of poisoning have increased a lot since e-cigarettes have become popular though.
It is very difficult to absorb a lethal dose through the skin.

aga - 1-3-2018 at 13:30

Nicotine is soluble in both water and fats.

Human skin's natural water/fat layers pose absolutely no barrier to it.

Only the outer, and dead epidermis slows it down to any extent.

Once past that, it definitely will enter the underlying tissues/bloodstream.

Tsjerk - 1-3-2018 at 13:34



[Edited on 1-3-2018 by Tsjerk]

Tsjerk - 1-3-2018 at 13:38

Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston  
....solutions containing up to 20 mg/mL may be sold to the public.

This is still enough that a 10 mL bottle of e-liquid contains more than a lethal dose....


I don't think 200 mg would be lethal, even when absorbed. In the article it is stated the lower limit is around 4 mg/ml in the plasma, which corresponds too 0.5-1 g of absorbed nicotine.

In a cigarette there is between 10-20 mg of nicotine, I guess absorption in the stomach is quite effective, and one cigarette didn't make me nauseous or dizzy or anything (yeah, I ate one).

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Nicotine is soluble in both water and fats.

Human skin's natural water/fat layers pose absolutely no barrier to it.

Only the outer, and dead epidermis slows it down to any extent.

Once past that, it definitely will enter the underlying tissues/bloodstream.


About anything that is not charged or highly hydrophobic/hydrophilic passes the skin, but that doesn't mean a gram would easily pass.

I wouldn't be too afraid of nicotine saturated DMSO. Maybe phentanyl or something, but nicotine... no.

4 mg/ml actually is 0.4 promille, which makes it just a bit less toxic than ethanol, as 0.4 promille of ethanol is not to far of the lethal dose.

[Edited on 1-3-2018 by Tsjerk]

phlogiston - 1-3-2018 at 13:40

Of the 10 mg in a typical cigarette, only about 1 mg ends up in the smoke that you inhale. In fact, 1 mg is the maximum allowed by European law. The rest escapes in the smoke that escapes between drags, and some remains in the butt.

edit: I missed that you -ate- one, lol. What the story? A bet?

For adults, 200 mg not being lethal is probably true. The law regarding the maximum concentration of 20 mg/mL and a maximum volume of 10 mL in a refill container was meant to prevent fatal accidental poisonings of children. For a child 200 mg might be a lethal dose, especially because nicotine is more toxic to children than to adults.

[Edited on 1-3-2018 by phlogiston]

Tsjerk - 1-3-2018 at 13:42

Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston  
y because nicotine is more toxic to children than to adults

[Edited on 1-3-2018 by phlogiston]


Do you have a reference for this?

Yes, I ate one, we were curious ;)

[Edited on 1-3-2018 by Tsjerk]

clearly_not_atara - 1-3-2018 at 15:08

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Nicotine toxicity is highly exaggerated, and fatal intoxications are rare.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3880486/

Quote:
The literature reports on fatal nicotine intoxications suggest that the lower limit of lethal nicotine blood concentrations is about 2 mg/L, corresponding to 4 mg/L plasma, a concentration that is around 20-fold higher than that caused by intake of 60 mg nicotine. Thus, a careful estimate suggests that the lower limit causing fatal outcomes is 0.5–1 g of ingested nicotine, corresponding to an oral LD50 of 6.5–13 mg/kg.

This report discusses oral administration, not transdermal administration. I have observed a case of accidental oral ingestion of a large quantity of nicotine; the primary outcome was vomiting. In the case I am referring to, the equivalent of roughly 20 cigarettes was ingested.

Also, the report says the lethal level in plasma is 4 mg/L, not 4 mg/mL as you later stated.

Melgar - 1-3-2018 at 15:56

Quote: Originally posted by LearnedAmateur  
Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention that the use of cyanide for gold mining is incredibly damaging for the environment, even on small scale (like a small private team) hence why governments see it as necessary to limit its use as much as possible. It is especially prevalent when you look at illegal mines who obviously aren’t subject to regulation and don’t care about the secondary effects, from where they dispose of extremely hazardous waste into rivers and pits, where it leeches into the groundwater thus killing aquatic life and seriously damaging the local ecosystems.

You're probably thinking of the other method of gold mining, the one that uses mercury to dissolve it out of sediment. That shit is what's screwing up the environment. Cyanide is the safe alternative, since it can easily be neutralized by oxidizing it to cyanate.

That being said, I can buy NaCN and KCN OTC, but the only place I know of that sells it is in midtown Manhattan. It's used by jewelers for precious metal reclamation. The only reason the rest of you can't get it is because it can't be shipped. The store that sells it in Manhattan has it delivered by a private service from the factory in New Jersey that produces it.

[Edited on 3/1/18 by Melgar]

violet sin - 1-3-2018 at 17:49

Isn't cyanide only used in massive leach piles of lower grade ore over years.... Not likely to be used small scale in that manner.

Seems like a good source of mining facts.
http://www.miningfacts.org/environment/what-is-the-role-of-c...

"Canada, more than 90% of mined gold is extracted from ore using cyanide. [3]

The concentration of cyanide used in this process is normally in the range of 0.01% and 0.05% sodium cyanide (100 to 500 parts per million). [2] As part of their best practices, mines use as little cyanide as possible for environmental, safety, and economic reasons"

------------

As for the nicotine thing, I used to chew the gum when I was still trying to quit. Highest concentration I could get locally was 4mg/piece. I was always leery of the liquids, for that reason specifically. Quit without anything so fancy; no need to worry about it now.

I do however fear the common availability of that juice, with only a pop-up asking for you to release them from liability.

LearnedAmateur - 2-3-2018 at 01:44

From what I’ve read over the past 10 minutes, it seems as if both mercury and cyanide present similar hazard levels both legally and illegally - legitimate mines are usually responsible for disasters when they fail in some way, such as a leak or inadequate storage, whereas illegal mine waste is simply dumped and the equipment is moved on. The environmental impacts, especially in South American and African countries, is what is used to detect illegal mining, where soil and human tests can reveal high mercury and/or cyanide (usually both) levels. Combining this with gold ‘titration’ during routine testing can help to predict where a mine may pop up, but is still extremely difficult, especially when you look at a region like the Amazon for instance.

The issues with both reagents are also slightly different so affect the environment in different ways - cyanide is a short term problem but is far more harmful, whereas mercury will bioaccumulate at low concenctrations thus can potentially affect a local region for decades. Combine the two, and you’ll have a quick punch to the ecosystem which then drags on for a long time, making it a very difficult problem to remedy so prevention becomes the key fix.

Most of the studies on environmental impacts revolve around legal mining since they do have a responsibility to safe practices in order to keep operating and to avoid heavy fines, plus a single incident can have far reaching and higher death tolls than a small mine due to the vast size in comparison. Illegal mines on the other hand are pretty much always tucked out of the way in some obscure area, so it is unlikely anyone will actually die outside of the group itself.

Here’s an interesting article I came across:
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/acid-drainage-gold-...

Tsjerk - 2-3-2018 at 02:12

Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara  


Also, the report says the lethal level in plasma is 4 mg/L, not 4 mg/mL as you later stated.


Oeps... That makes nicotine around 1000x more toxic compared to ethanol... I was so proud of myself making this comparison yesterday....

ZetekitoxinAB - 4-8-2019 at 13:14

Nicotine is in fact highly acutely toxic; acute toxicity is associated with strong repeated vomiting so if ingested, a great part of it would be eliminated. It is absorbed through skin, though you would need quite a spill in order to be lethal.

I have experimented quite a lot with it, testing its effects after diluting the pure stuff in saline. Intramuscular injections (Very dangerous, not recommended !) of 1-3 mg produce strong but short lived effects. I have once accidentally injected an undiluted stock solution, estimated 10-15 mg and got extremely sick: Intense nausea, vomiting, profuse sweating, cold shivers. After about 5 to 10 minutes or so I was better and fell asleep with vivid dreams.

I would asses 100 mg parenterally to be fatal, with almost certainty, to most people.

Vomaturge - 4-8-2019 at 16:46

Quote: Originally posted by ZetekitoxinAB  
I have once accidentally injected an undiluted stock solution, estimated 10-15 mg and got extremely sick: Intense nausea, vomiting, profuse sweating, cold shivers.


Please, please be careful, and stop trying these kinds of experiments.
Human errors and accidents are one of the reasons I think amateurs should not do human experimentation, even on themselves. That, and experiments can unearth unexpected side effects. Whether someone else has discovered something incredibly dangerous before or not, if YOU don't know about it when conducting an experiment, you can subject yourself to some extreme risks.

As far as why nicotine isn't regulated, even in highly concentrated form, I think that has less to do with its true toxicity and more to do with the fact that it's not associated in the public mind with acute toxicity, and, as learned amateur aptly pointed out, the authorities tend to control chemicals much more strictly if they do not have a common household use. They will control chemicals "individuals don't need acess to" even if the chance of abusing them is very small. This is all very frustrating for us experimenters, and likely doesn't cut down on crimes and accidents by much in the big picture.

mayko - 4-8-2019 at 17:01

Transdermal absorption is an occupational safety concern for tobacco pickers. I don't know of any deaths attributable to "green tobacco sickness", but it sounds pretty unpleasant:

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/greentobaccosickness/defaul...