Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Suggest some experiments

Suggest some experiments

R0B0T? - 26-2-2007 at 16:06

for a beginner.

pyromainiac420 - 26-2-2007 at 16:55

make acetoen peroxide...but only if your going to be very carefull with it alot off people say its REALLY sensitive..i have no problem with it but its powerfull and potentially dangerous but also easy, thats probably the only problem..its too easy it was the first HE that i made and other things seemed alot harder. Maybe HMTD or i think NC would be a great idea cuz then you'd be ready to try other nitrations although a runaway may scare you or more likly to occur cuz your a beginner look around and find a few you think would be good and then ask again we will probably be abble to help you more then

GhostofUnintentionalChaos - 26-2-2007 at 17:51

Terrible idea. That's the last thing you should suggest to a beginner. Check out Woelen's webpage. It has some excellent experiments that won't kill you. http://oelen.net/science/

If you're looking for energetics-themed experiments, reactions like simple thermites, good old sugar-KNO3 engines/smokescreens (really basic), and some of the less sensitive flash powders may be good to try. If you don't have much background in chemistry, I suggest reading up on redox reactions so you understand what you are doing. Limb loss is much less likely if you are well informed.

[Edited on 27-2-2007 by GhostofUnintentionalChaos]

BromicAcid - 26-2-2007 at 18:03

This question comes up from time to time and I know lots of wonderful comments and suggestions have been brought up before but for some reason I can't readily find the threads.

Nevertheless, you posted in Energetic Materials so I would think that you have some sort of fondness towards them. Even if energetics are you preferred area of interest you should likely start out with some basics to get your feet with with techniques and such that will help you in the future.

First off though, you determine your own level of involvement in chemistry. How much time and money are you willing to invest in it? What country do you hail from, and what chemicals do you already posses if any? These are all important questions to consider.

Just take the time to explain what you want to do, you don't have to be specific, but chemistry is a huge pervasive field, you can do pretty much anything so focus and help out the people that might be trying to help you, and also check out the link that GhostofUnintentionalChaos provided above to Woelen's site, it's a gem.

Best of luck!

nitro-genes - 26-2-2007 at 19:01

A nice and relatively safe experiment is the first energetic material that I made, namely H2/O2 mixtures by electrolysis of water with a small amount of natrium sulfate and a 12 Volt battery in a small 50 ml glass beaker (ware safety glasses!). I added some dishwash detergent to produce bubbles filled with a balanced mixture of the two gasses. Scared the hell out of me the first time I ignited a large one. These are really earringingly loud and you can feel the pressurewave. It will give a nice idea of how powerfull even small amounts of energetic materials can be...

Blackpowder would also be a good starter, it's chemistry is relatively straightforward and it's tame enough to allow some "mistakes" when manufactured in small quantities...

[Edited on 27-2-2007 by nitro-genes]

R0B0T? - 26-2-2007 at 19:28

Thanks everybody.

I've already done the electrolysis experiment, and I started making/using my own black powder about a year ago. I made myself a ball mill, and have been in need of a new motor for quite some time, and i have a stockpile of black powder in my room, so I'm looking for something new. I've also been arrested for goofy little hydrogen bombs.

Chemicals i already possess:

Potassium Nitrate
Sulfur
Carbon
Sulfuric Acid (30 - 40%)
Hydrochloric Acid (30%)
Hydrogen Peroxide (3%)

Chemicals available:
Sulfuric Acid (90%)
Acetone
Ammonia
any other chemical listed on eBay or www.unitednuclear.com.

I live in the Southern United States, and I am looking for cheap experiments considering the fact that I have over $300 in tickets to pay within the next month. In the summer I should be working again, and will have more money. I would rather not pay $50 for some chemicals that I'm not ready to use (because of the lack of knowledge/experience with high explosives.), so cheap, easy experiments are right up my alley. I also would like to keep all of my fingers/eye sight/hearing, so I'm a little weary to make/use AP.

I was fearful that I would get a hundred people telling me to make AP, but I know there are a lot of knowledgeable/experienced chemists/pyros on here, so I was hoping they (knowledgeable in both real life and text) could recommend some explosives to make or any other fun experiments.

I also did search for threads similar to this one, but I did not get a single result.

Thanks.

Mumbles - 26-2-2007 at 19:45

If you're interested in straight chemistry, I'd suggest picking up a copy of Vogel's Practical Organic Chemsitry. There are lots of fun things in there. It will help learn a lot too.

As far as energenic compounds, if that is your desired focus, I usually recomend Nitrocellulose. It's fairly simple and straight forward. It's also relatively safe, and helps get your feet wet in nitrations. It's pretty hard to mess up, and the product is easy to test for quality from burn testing. Mononitronaphthalene is also one of the few things I started off with as well.

woelen - 26-2-2007 at 23:48

Very nice experiments with energetic materials can be done with the flame colors of different metal salts. Try to get some potassium chlorate, or even better potassium bromate, and mix this with sulphur and other metal salts (e.g. barium carbonate, strontium carbonate).

Potassium bromate is fairly easy to make at home from KBr (I did this, see my webpage) and with this as a starting point, you can make other bromates, such as Ba-bromate, Sr-bromate, Ag-bromate. These bromates have very cool flame colors with only sulphur as fuel. When you confine yourself to sulphur as fuel and no powdered metals or red phosphorus, then the mixes are fairly safe, especially if made in small quantities. I noticed that bromates have much more saturated flame colors than the similar nitrates and also more than the similar chlorates, although in the latter case, the difference is less pronounced. I do not know why, it is one of my observations.

Sickman - 27-2-2007 at 00:02

This website is probably all you need to get going, it includes pics and specific details of amounts of chemicals used.

Powerlabs

Unfortunatley, it descibes the synthesis of picric acid using phenol instead of good old bayer aspirin (which is at a store near you)! The synthesis of picric acid is descibed and worked out to perfection in the following thread:

Picric Acid

Please read the entire thread (it has multiple pages) and carefully think through all the safety concerns and advice about those safety concerns! All in all I'd say Picric Acid is a good way to go, you already have all the chemicals you need (sulfuric acid (boil it to concentrate it) and potassium nitrate), you just need some aspirin and some solvent (I recommend isopropyl alcohol) for the purification of the aspirin first.

Picric Acid is a good choice, because it is stable for long term storage, it is relatively safe to handle, it has outstanding acidic properties which allows it's use as a precursor for the synthesis of many weak, but useful primary metallic picrate explosives. Also essential in the synthesis of powerful secondary picrates such as ammonium picrate ( ammonium hydroxide + picric acid), which is used in armor piercing shells , because of it's great insensitivity to impacts. Picric acid itself is a powerful explosive which is more powerful than TNT.

Picric acid is however toxic and will stain everything, including your skin, yellow. Some red fumes can and likely will be produced during it's production which must not be inhaled, the synthesis should be performed outdoors and a very small batch should be made first on the order of say 20 grams to start with. You will not be able to detonate the picric acid with black powder, but will need a real primary explosive such as mercury fulminate or lead azide to get it to detonate. Mercury fulminate and Lead Azide are very sensitive to impacts, friction and static electricity, you should read alot about them and use every precation and only make in very very small quantities. Picric acid, once made, can be detonated by taking a small pinch of it in a rubber gloved hand and placing it between a fold of aluminum foil, this folded aluminum foil containing a small amount of picric acid is placed on a hard surface and then given a hard hit with a hammer(wear safety glasses and maybe some ear plugs and only fold the aluminum foil over once to contain it and to avoid dangerous fragments of aluminum). A very sharp, loud, bang can be produced by doing this which will put your black powder to shame.

[Edited on 27-2-2007 by Sickman]

quicksilver - 27-2-2007 at 06:42

I agree with both the idea of using of Vogel's Practical Organic Chemsitry and attempting some of the Powerlabs experiments. Black Powder allows a lot of variety with deflagrants (oxidizers/fuels) and that's a fun thing to start with.
However there is a subtle difference between preforming chemistry and learning chemistry. Learning chemistry is wonderful as it will never stop and it can take you places that you can't go if you simply live for lab representations of phenomenon. Labs are fun as can be - However, -you NEED TO HAVE A LAB IN WHICH TO WORK. The kitchen will soon prove to be too constraining (as well as an excellent opportunity to make everyone sick as a dog).
Speaking only for myself, I think that studying chemistry will yield the labs in which you find the interest and ability level that will provide the best common ground for you. There is a certain diffulty in suggesting experiments in that what interests one person, another would find less interesting. But studying chemistry will provide you will books in which to continually dig up things of interest. The thing I have found consistently with hobbys is that -it's the INFORMATION that becomes most valuable. With the info you can dig up the chemicals most anywhere. With the information you can continue to find new things of interest. The things I treasure the most is the information, the books, etc. The lab equipment and chems come and go but the books are invaluable. If you browse the forum you will find a lot of discussion on Over The Counter sources for chemicals (as well as certain labware). That in itself is a neat thing to accomplish. Sourcing the materials will often yield experiments that can be preformed anywhere.

[Edited on 27-2-2007 by quicksilver]

nitro-genes - 27-2-2007 at 08:31

Seen your available chemicals and your budget there is not very much you can do with them. Though I found a nice challenge in trying to make blackpowder as fast as possible by using homemade charcoals from certain woods, dampening techniques and granulation. Producing blackpowder that burns as fast as good flashpowder is quite a challenge and much more difficult than mixing some hydrogen peroxide and acetone to produce something as dangerous as acetone peroxide. In fact, I would say that fast blackpowder is about one of the most difficult pyrotechnical mixtures to be made at home. The manufacture of good charcoal is really key, and I've found no commercially available charcoal even remotely as good as specially produced homemade ones. It really is amazing to see what dramatic effect the small chemical compoistion differences in H, O and ash content in the charcoal have on the burnspeed of blackpowder...

[Edited on 27-2-2007 by nitro-genes]

gregxy - 27-2-2007 at 09:57

Making chlorate in an electrochemical cell is interesting. Then you can make pyrotecnics with the cholrate when you are done. You can buy nice graphite plates for this on Ebay.

KMnO4 makes good flash powder, or you can add some glycerine and watch it spontaneously combust.

highvalley chemical has lots of supplies and is in the southwest usa.

Rosco Bodine - 28-2-2007 at 08:00

Quote:

Originally posted by R0B0T?
I am looking for cheap experiments considering the fact that I have over $300 in tickets to pay within the next month.

Reducing the lead content in your right foot is an area
of experimentation which would put you in a lower tax bracket

You must really love the local police since
you donate to them so much of what was your own money .
They probably recognize you at a distance as a willing
contributor having deep pockets and a generous nature ,
even to the point of flagging you down just so they can give you their card and another invitation to make a contribution ,
seeing you as another philanthropist

Gives you that good feeling right in the old bank account though , and
what could substitute for that special feeling you get from
helping people in need ? How could keeping the money
that is yours possibly compare with the personal satisfaction
of a benevolent unselfishness towards those who serve and protect

The deep sentimentality of it all must be so
emotionally replenishing , that even as you are reviewing
your bank account ...you can't help but get choked up about it

R0B0T? - 8-3-2007 at 07:11

heh.
I also just got quite a bit of potassium permanganate and sodium hydroxide.
So far I've made dimanganese heptaoxide (in extremely small quantities, I'm talking pea sized amounts ot the stuff) and flash powder with it. Any other ideas?
[Edited on 8-3-2007 by R0B0T?]

[Edited on 8-3-2007 by R0B0T?]

[Edited on 8-3-2007 by R0B0T?]

[Edited on 8-3-2007 by R0B0T?]

quicksilver - 8-3-2007 at 07:45

How about utilizing the existing resources and purifying them? Get your H2SO4 up to 98% via heat. Develop some acid resistant glass-ware and utilizing your KNO3 & H2SO4 make some nitric at above aziotropic strength. For that matter make all sorts of lab materials like a stir machine or a fine distilltion set-up. It CAN be done with home materials and once you have both workable lab-ware AND reagent grade materials you can work with much more interesting things. How about simply FINDING Over-The-Counter sources? There are ways to get together a few grams of red P from OTC sources or various elements (an element collection?). Making KCLO3 with a car battery and water purification salt, etc. In other words, actually make a little lab.

grndpndr - 20-12-2009 at 06:46

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

How about utilizing the existing resources and purifying them? Get your H2SO4 up to 98% via heat. Develop some acid resistant glass-ware and utilizing your KNO3 & H2SO4 make some nitric at above aziotropic strength. For that matter make all sorts of lab materials like a stir machine or a fine distilltion set-up. It CAN be done with home materials and once you have both workable lab-ware AND reagent grade materials you can work with much more interesting things. How about simply FINDING Over-The-Counter sources? There are ways to get together a few grams of red P from OTC sources or various elements (an element collection?). Making KCLO3 with a car battery and water purification salt, etc. In other words, actually make a little lab.

Thats were I began,and while Ive learned a good deal w/very minimal equipment/OTC chems-improvistion Im still a rank novice.Never the less With that equipment I was able to successfully synthesise many of the peroxides,fulminates.mixed acid nitrations specifically Picric acid,Roscoes OTC Urea Nitrate.(Binarys and commercial caps dont count,but the devices made with them might get me extra credit?)
Ive added to the basics I began with gradually as finances allow
and equally important an area to call your own where you can set up your equipment with some expectation of privacy.
Im working on an overhead mixer now as well as improvising a vacum for my distillation set-up.Adding a few needed chemicals depending on need, best case OTC or synthesised as long as absolute assurance purity is met in those cases where safetys a consideration
Main thing I think is being safe and sane both synthesising and disposing of the finished lab not endangering yourself or others.

franklyn - 20-12-2009 at 11:17

When your girl friend is feeling amorous you could invite
another woman over and suggest a threesome.
You didn't specify what sort of bang you have in mind , but as
fireworks generally go the outcome is all in the chemistry.
Caution , performing this experiment can cause multiple contusions
- see - Tiger Woods.

.

grndpndr - 20-12-2009 at 19:17

Tiger as of yet hasnt lost any IMPORTANT appendages that we might risk that Im aware of. But I would love to have just a very small % of the cash he has lost just so far.Still,Id rather be
in his position that my own, financially and in other areas.

My apologys for the breach in site etiquette.

Formatik - 21-12-2009 at 13:30

Quote: Originally posted by R0B0T?

for a beginner.

Guncotton is always good. The high nitrogen kind, made from red nitric acid and conc. H2SO4. Watch a regular cottonball transmutate into a cottonball with a whoosh when lit.

Cellulose perchlorate is good for show too. Put a drop or two HClO4.2H2O onto the end of a small cardboard match. Let it absorb. Then put under a flame and enjoy. But don't ever store it, since it's unstable.

ChrisWhewell - 22-12-2009 at 16:20

Ag acetylide. But only after thorough study and under qualified supervision.

[Edited on 23-12-2009 by ChrisWhewell]

entropy51 - 22-12-2009 at 17:52

Quote: Originally posted by ChrisWhewell

Ag acetylide.

I thought you said to stay away from the organic stuff?

ChrisWhewell - 22-12-2009 at 19:08

Acetylene doesn't count, because one of my inorganic profs included a test on an exam relating to it.

Come to think of it, maybe its really a carbide, otherwise Union Carbide would have been called Union Acetylide

Anyone messing around with anything known to decompose would do well to read a bunch, and if ever tempted to prepare any such compounds, only make very tiny quantities, less than a gram and preferably under experienced supervision. I knew a fellow who blew off his arm with NG. I know of another one who was killed. I knew another guy with a completely scarred arm, from blending red P and chlorate. Years later I read about the hazards of red P and ClO3- and had an opportunity to mix the two. I laid about a teaspoon of chlorate in a crucible, and plopped a peanut sized clump of red P on top of it, fortunately with eye protection on. I took a glass rod and attempted to cocomminutate the two but had no such luck for as soon as I agitated the P ever so slightly, a silent shower of what appeared to be fifty or so white hot plasma ball lightning blobs filled the air. Imagine the poor fool who would attempt same with larger quantities and less knowledge. I look back at the shenanigans we did as kids and think I'm lucky, but I was always overly cautious and respectful of the materials. Sometimes weird things can happen that one has no way of predicting which is good reason to stay away from this stuff. Remember, Nobel lost his brother and I think his fiance to an NG explosion and those guys supposedly knew what they were doing.

woelen - 23-12-2009 at 04:42

What you call tiny quantities I still find quite a large quantity. A teaspoon full of chlorate and a peanutsized clump of red P makes a big boom if mixed well. I would suggest at most 100 mg of such dangerous mixtures. A gram easily can rip off fingers, 100 mg cannot do real harm, but still 100 mg can make painful burns (I know from personal experience when a mix of K3CrO8, red P and Al-powder set off in a hot white flare on the touch with a little wooden stick).

quicksilver - 24-12-2009 at 10:38

Gun-cotton is not as lightweight as it seems: remember the original Monroe experiments? That is another ester that MUST be free from acid. Be ultra cautious in how you store you experiments. No glass, metal, or even heavy plastic. I used to write to a guy who got very severely cut from a film can!!!! I shit you not! If ever using a screw top get a bit of Teflon plumber's tape and coat the threads. It will put the breaks on friction. Stoppers (rubber, cork) can be the source of enough friction to get it going.
Always think: "if the worst happens, what damage will be done". - And you will make the best decision. Never store materials where you may eat, etc. The high likelihood is that one day you may be working with a serious poison. get in the habit of using gloves. Buy Nytrele, they are a bit loose and don't rip that easy. They also have a fair chemical resistance.

I once saw a "firecracker" made from a cardboard tube and a fuse dipped in a NC lacquer silver acetylene blob, sheathed from the NC by a section of Aluminum foil. The whole thing weighed a few grams but was capable of the detonation "thump" you feel more than hear! I was very impressed. My point is never under estimate those materials that appear so simple. More thumbs, fingers & eyes are lost to TATP & flash than anything like CL20.
Be safe.

Formatik - 24-12-2009 at 15:33

Even just a few guncotton balls made from the cotton balls can need several hours of work up bicarbonate wash, regular water wash, tireless stirring, straining, agitation and repeating. I think that's good enough for a few cotton balls which aren't going to be stored up, but used right away for demonstration.

There are books covering stability of nitrocellulose, one is Die Schiessbaumwolle (Nitrocellulosen) by Richard Escales, Die Schieß- und Sprengstoffe by Alfred Stettbacher. Federoff and Urbanski also likely cover lots of information on this especially newer information. The former have some points like:

* Stettbacher points out after nitration, the acid-drenched guncotton tends to ignite spontaneously a lot, and so quickly must be washed with a lot of water. Stabilization is also more complex than simply washing with soda and water and some agitation. Abel noticed that early methods where NC pulp was boiled with weakly alkaline solutions (for stabilization) was a bad idea, what would happen is the alkaline compounds would cause hydrolysis and decomposition of nitrocellulose so products of lower stability would result which remain in the nitration product and as catalysts cause the decomposition processes of nitrocellulose. So boiling was done with slight acidity still present which would decompose problem impurities. This also being tricky, because if overdone the acidic boiling causes decomposition. Stettbacher says it would be a "disastrous error" if one were to believe that the washing process and day-long boiling would ever remove all of the traces of acid. The fibers will stubbornly trap a certain amount of it. This can first be removed by reducing it to smaller pieces internally and then following stabilization. Stettbacher breaks the stabilization process down into three parts: work in the milling machine, secondly the work in the wash- or strain machine. And third boiling in the test boiler. The process and engineering might have changed a lot since then but this is how it was done around the beginning of the 20th century.

* NC can be stabilized more quickly the more water-rich or also the more less sulfuric acid is present in the nitrating acid.

* Hake and Bell have claimed the storability of guncotton depends strongly on sulfate content, that is, the fibers of the remaining sulfate rest which lead to delayed decomposition. Nitrite esters are also more easily destroyed by the stabilization (boiling) process than sulfate esters which can't be removed by boiling. From several experiments, H2SO4 content was lowest with 1:1 H2SO4:HNO3 nitration ratio.

* There are plenty of stability tests. The oldest qualitative test of chemical stability is the Abel-Test. This is a fairly simple test using potassium iodide-iodine starch paper. Stettbacher describes it and how to make the KI paper, there are plenty of references on this.

* There are compounds that heighten the stability of guncotton or colloxylinum when added in very small amounts, like diphenylamine.

* Highlight other issues, like wet nitrocellulose getting attacked by bacteria and respective drying process, etc.

Cellulose nitrate isn't as harsh as the perchlorate though, which is inherently unstable and will ignite or explode when it wants to and is more shock sensitive.

With small enough amounts and right saftey precautions though, both of their energetic properties can be demonstrated safely.

[Edited on 24-12-2009 by Formatik]

ChrisWhewell - 25-12-2009 at 08:42

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

Gun-cotton is not as lightweight as it seems: remember the original Monroe experiments? That is another ester that MUST be free from acid. Be ultra cautious in how you store you experiments. No glass, metal, or even heavy plastic. I used to write to a guy who got very severely cut from a film can!!!! I shit you not! If ever using a screw top get a bit of Teflon plumber's tape and coat the threads. It will put the breaks on friction. Stoppers (rubber, cork) can be the source of enough friction to get it going.
Always think: "if the worst happens, what damage will be done". - And you will make the best decision. Never store materials where you may eat, etc. The high likelihood is that one day you may be working with a serious poison. get in the habit of using gloves. Buy Nytrele, they are a bit loose and don't rip that easy. They also have a fair chemical resistance.

I once saw a "firecracker" made from a cardboard tube and a fuse dipped in a NC lacquer silver acetylene blob, sheathed from the NC by a section of Aluminum foil. The whole thing weighed a few grams but was capable of the detonation "thump" you feel more than hear! I was very impressed. My point is never under estimate those materials that appear so simple. More thumbs, fingers & eyes are lost to TATP & flash than anything like CL20.
Be safe.

If you look at the balanced eqn and do the math for NG decomp, if it happens stoichiometrically, you get something like 1156 ml of gas from a 1 ml vol. of liquid NG, instantaneously. Yikes.

ChrisWhewell - 25-12-2009 at 09:00

Quote: Originally posted by Formatik

Even just a few guncotton balls made from the cotton balls can need several hours of work up .... Die Schiessbaumwolle (Nitrocellulosen) by Richard Escales, Die Schieß- und Sprengstoffe by Alfred Stettbacher.

Tenney Davis of MIT wrote a good book once. I always wondered about using chitin and chitosan as a nitration substrate, but never pursued it other than the conception stage, although surely some others must have. The azote in the molecule could possibly be of value in controlling the acid levels in the reaction product. A while back I filed a patent for isethionyl nitrate, but didn't pursue it as much as I would have liked to because I lack the lab resources, I filed it partly in hopes that the publication of the application might inspire others better equipped than I to do further work. Having an amino, carboxylate, or sulfonate group in a nitric ester molecule could afford opportunities for acid neutralization, but adds MW which undoubtedly slows down propagation speed, although the material may have potential as an initiator. I didn't investigate in depth any of the heavy metal salts of isethionyl nitrate but would do so if I had time and a proper facility, etc. Some are probably not stable but if one were, such as the Al, Mg salt (one that gives a reaction product with a lot of CFSE), it could prove to be more human or environmentally-friendly material than materials currently in use. When I used to go to indoor pistol ranges, I hated the smell and wondered how much lead those guys are breathing, same when I used a .22 calibre Ramset(TM) nail shooter to lay some plywood on concrete. It would be nice to have clean priming material. I still wonder about ammonium isethionyl nitrate's potential utility in such regard........ titanium salt ? Definitely not something for a beginner to do without some study and experienced supervision, but a potentially ripe area for development for a good team.

[Edited on 25-12-2009 by ChrisWhewell]

The_Davster - 25-12-2009 at 09:42

Quote: Originally posted by ChrisWhewell

Some are probably not stable but if one were, such as the Al, Mg salt (one that gives a reaction product with a lot of CFSE), it could prove to be more human or environmentally-friendly material than materials currently in use. When I used to go to indoor pistol ranges, I hated the smell and wondered how much lead those guys are breathing, same when I used a .22 calibre Ramset(TM) nail shooter to lay some plywood on concrete. It would be nice to have clean priming material. I still wonder about ammonium isethionyl nitrate's potential utility in such regard........ titanium salt ? Definitely not something for a beginner to do without some study and experienced supervision, but a potentially ripe area for development for a good team.

Patent number?

Also while a primary containing Al or Ti could theoretically find use in initiatory roles, I really doubt it would be adapted for use in small arms primers due to the abrasiveness of the alumina or titania that would invariably form; not good for the barrel at all.

ChrisWhewell - 25-12-2009 at 10:48

publication 20060293384

you're right about the abrasiveness, I forgot for a moment that corundum is #9 on Moh's scale. tin or bismuth perhaps instead

[Edited on 25-12-2009 by ChrisWhewell]