Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Securiflame fire-starter: what is it?

Securiflame fire-starter: what is it?

Magpie - 19-2-2007 at 17:14

Somehow a small (~50g) packet of "Securiflame" fire-starter found its way into my house. Probably a free sample in the mail. No one seems to know....

I searched the internet but could only find out that Securiflame is a French company and is apparently marketing this "fire-starter" through Joseph Enterprises, Inc of San Fransisco. These are the fine folks who also have brought us the "Clapper" and the "Chia" plant dogs.

It is a white solid and looks like it might be hexamine. I hesitate to break the seal just yet as it might have volatile components. Is anyone familiar with this or know its composition?

[Edited on 20-2-2007 by Magpie]

not_important - 19-2-2007 at 18:29

The French Securiflame is a chimney cleaning product. Poked around on their site a bit, couldn't find anything that leapt out as to what's in it but it isn't going to be pure hexamine.

The_Davster - 19-2-2007 at 21:19

Give it a squeeze...hard pellet or a crumbly styrofoam like material?

I have some 'zip' firestarter for camping. It is a lightweight white block that has a 'flammable liquid' odour. No idea what it is, but it sure is not hexamine.

Ozone - 19-2-2007 at 21:23

Trioxane?

Wild ass guess,

O3

Magpie - 19-2-2007 at 22:25

Davster I gave it a squeeze. It broke and crumbled. Like a somewhat hard styrofoam I suppose.

My dad brought back some German souvenirs from Italy after WWII. Among them was a helmet, a bayonet, a Luger like pistol, and a small folding stove that must have been an Esbit. As children my brother and I would play with the helmet and the stove. That was that last time I have seen what must have been hexamine fuel tablets, right ? I remember them having a distinct smell.

Ozone - 19-2-2007 at 22:42

It seems that some Esbits were a combination of hexamine and trioxane (at least in Wiki

). The hexamine tabs I got when I was younger (surplus) seemed quite hard. Anyhoo, how about some tests?

Is it soluble in water? Acetonitrile? Either way, does acetate buffer (pH 5) and 0.5% 2,4-dinitrophenylhydrazine (in AcCN) give long yellow crystals (this may take some time)? Can you get DNPH (if not, there are other things to try)?

Does it smell of formaldehyde when acidified in water (perhaps at reflux)? When basified (fishy)?

Hmm.

Reverse engineering,

O3

[Edited on 20-2-2007 by Ozone]

The_Davster - 19-2-2007 at 23:19

Does it dissolve in water?
Does it make a ppt with 70% nitric?

Hexamine burns with a clean orange flame, the 'zip' type firestarters burn with smokey orange flames.

Just go to your local military surplus store and ask for hexamine and trioxane fuel tabs. Go to safeway and get the solid 'zip' firestarter.
Smell them each

Compare. Mystery over!

[Edited on 20-2-2007 by The_Davster]

Levi - 19-2-2007 at 23:37

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Davster
Just go to your local military surplus store and ask for hexamine and trioxane fuel tabs.
[Edited on 20-2-2007 by The_Davster]

Great idea! While you're out make sure you swing by the pharmacy and ask for a years supply of pseudoephedrine. Although, it may just be easier to drop by the police department and ask one of the officers there to take you into custody while you're waiting for the FBI to arrive.

The_Davster - 19-2-2007 at 23:47

Last time I was there on other business they had a bucket of packages of each next to the cash register.

And even if the surplus guys know what it could be for, they as a group are the least likely sic the powers that be on anyone.

But hey, if you want cover, just buy some ammo at the same time...

[Edited on 20-2-2007 by The_Davster]

Sauron - 20-2-2007 at 01:38

@Magpie, "Luger like pistol"?

Very few pistols are Luger-like. If it really looks like a Luger is IS a Luger. Lugers (that is, Pistole '08 Parabellum) have an anggled grip and an exposed barrel and a characteristic knee-type toggle action with knurled knobs. A lever safety on left side that says Gesichert when safety is ON. A mushy trigger, single action, and no exposed hammer.

The other main handgun of WWII German military and paramilitary forces was Walther P.38 which has a much straighter grip, a double action, revolver-like trigger for first shot, and a safety that drops the exposed hammer when applied (if hammer was cocked.) Early P.38s are very fine, late war P.38s can be rather dubious.

About the ONLY pistol that really resembles the Luger is the Finnish Lahti but it is a bit heavier, and mechanically different, and unless your Dad operated in Scandinavia with OSS it would be an unlikely souvenir. Lots came in later as surplus in the 40s, 50s, and early 60s till the anti-gun hysteria took hold.

not_important - 20-2-2007 at 05:00

This site sells a product that looks a lot like the Securiflame product. The MSDS for it lists wax, sawdust, ammonium sulfate, phosphorus pentoxide, copper sulfate, and amorphous silica; the last three are only a fraction of a percent. The ammonium and copper sulfates match what I've seen in powders meant to be tossed into fireplaces and stoves to clean the chimney.

Magpie - 20-2-2007 at 09:53

The pistol was a P-38. I just couldn't remember the name until Sauron mentioned it. It must have been a late model as we fired it a few times and couldn't hit anything with it!

We sold the pistol and the helmet. I still have the bayonet and a cool knife with a blade that slides into the handle. I take it camping for self-defence.

I don't have any DNPH (wish I did) or acetonitrile. I will open the package and see what I can learn.

Magpie - 20-2-2007 at 11:54

I opened the package and broke off a chunk. It had the consistency of swiss cheese without the holes. It smelled of hydrocarbon: like kerosene.

I laid a match on a piece and it readily caught fire and burned with a somewhat sooty flame. Burned for some time - quite alot of heat value. It left a residue of a soft carbon chunk.

Solubility testing:

water: no (floats)
10% NaOH: no
95%EtOH: no
6N HNO3: no
Coleman stove fuel (mostly hexane): no

It appears to be some kind of soft, porous polymer soaked in kerosene or other such hydrocarbon. The original blob looked like it might have been formed from a melt poured onto a flat surface.

12AX7 - 20-2-2007 at 13:11

What of aromatic solvents e.g. toluene?

garage chemist - 20-2-2007 at 14:16

You should also try to heat the solvents you try, especially the hydrocarbons.

In germany, every firestarter for chimneys or charcoal barbecue grills is like the one you described: some kind of porous polymer soaked with hydrocarbon. They aren't really interesting.

Magpie - 20-2-2007 at 15:03

I tried some crude benzene and with some vigorous stirring it did dissolve. So Tim...what was your clue?....that sooty flame?

Magpie - 20-2-2007 at 15:26

My test tubes were still sitting in the rack so I tried heating them all. This didn't seem to help. The 6N HNO3 tube was clear, however, without the heating. It either dissolved or digested the polymer with time.

I then tried acetone: no dissolution

The tube with the benzene is cloudy. I'm not sure if the polymer is dissolved or just finely dispersed. Possibly some of both.

12AX7 - 20-2-2007 at 21:26

Floats in water, foamy, insoluble in weak solvents (like alcohol) and kerosene-like stuff, sounds like styrofoam to me.

I'm suprised acetone didn't affect it.

Tim

[Edited on 2-21-2007 by 12AX7]

Misanthropy - 23-2-2007 at 21:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron
@Magpie, "Luger like pistol"?

Very few pistols are Luger-like. If it really looks like a Luger is IS a Luger.

As a kid, I once had a 7 or 8mm (?) WW2 Japanese Nambu that was similar in shape & dimention. The rotating safety on the rear of the slide was the most overt difference IIRC.

Quote:

Originally posted by Magpie
I still have the bayonet and a cool knife with a blade that slides into the handle.

Seems the Nazi youth were supplied with 'gravity knives' that operate in a similar sounding way. Heavy & substantial. Built to last. I used to have one of these as well.

[Edited on 2-24-2007 by Misanthropy]

The_Davster - 23-2-2007 at 23:00

Magpie, it sounds very similar to the firestarter product I mentioned earlier. I think mine smells like kerosene, problem is I have not smelled kerosene in years.

(but lets try to keep this on topic, if someone wants to make a thread to talk about your guns in whimsy thats fine

. All I will say is lugers are illegal up here for some perverted reason, otherwise I would own one)

Magpie - 24-2-2007 at 10:11

Misanthropy says:

Quote:

Seems the Nazi youth were supplied with 'gravity knives' that operate in a similar sounding way. Heavy & substantial. Built to last. I used to have one of these as well.

Yes, the knife is impressive: both for design & workmanship, and also how heavy it is..."built to last."

Davster, I'm not really a gun afficionado, but if you start a thread in whimsy I promise you a special treat.

richard - 24-2-2007 at 13:52

Not 100% but I believe these white blocks are solid white parafin.

The_Davster - 24-2-2007 at 17:50

Richard that is a different product the product we are discussing is flammable and crumbly. Parrafin blocks are completly different.