Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Industrial level chemical refining

Yttrium2 - 26-12-2017 at 23:04

So, with the meth scare and all, which might actually be legitimate, I've been wanting to know, what parts of a meth lab are dangerous? Is it the HCL gas or, as I think, are the phosphorous compounds/phosgene. Why does decontamination cost so much? What's the scare?


How is/are phosphorous compounds dealt with industrially? It seems a small accident or spill or grain that lands on a hot surface or cigarette ember could cause an entire refinery to .... I don't even know, smoke, sputter, explode and poison everyone in the vicinity. All jokes aside, this is serious stuff. (I should edit the bullshit)

So how is it dealt with industrially? On such a large scale?



Also, are there any old production sites in America for things like steel and "crude chemicals"? What are crude chemicals?

Any new production sites?


What if things hit the fan and we go to war with China, how would we compete when all are starting materials come from those countries?

Which other countries produce starting materials and why? Is it typically sweat shop countries where they don't mind the smog for a couple bucks or what?

When did production get phased out?

How much money can one get out of a person before they collapse? How efficient can some people work and why?



How can we compete with such s high cost of labor? Higher prices?

RogueRose - 26-12-2017 at 23:37

Not asking much are you, lol :)

There are a lot of other countries that make chemicals besides China. India, Germany, France, probably old eastern bloc countries and Russia.
Norway is a big fertilizer producer as well as some middle east countries. I beleive Iran & Pakistan many have a healthy chemical industries as well. Brazil and possibly Argentina and Spain also come to mind for some domestic production of many of their chems and export some indigenous extracts.

A lot of chemicals are petro based, even ethanol can be made from petroleum. Most of what is made from oil can also be made from coal or even natural gas, although the process can be more difficult and time consuming.

Assured Fish - 26-12-2017 at 23:44

There are a hell of a lot of questions here, too many for one thread.
Also this belongs in misc or whimsy.

Phosphine is only really an issue with the old pseudophedrine reduction utilizing hydriodic acid and phosphorous.
The other methods may or may not have their own risks.
Bromo acetone route for example involves dealing with a chemical weapon.

However, i am fairly confident that all the decontamination they are talking about is the actual methamphetamine residues.
This as we more educated individuals would know is a complete over exaggeration for toxicity or danger.

I have no doubt that they are in fact able to accurately detect small quantities of methamphetamine residues on wall paper and ceilings and even carpets. Although i have my serious doubts about any being detectable in the air we breathe, given how much it circulates.
When in contact with UV light for extended periods of time i doubt the molecule would survive particularly well.

My assumption was that all this decontamination bull shit is precisely that, Bull shit.
Fueled by propaganda and superstition and ignorance.

Methamphetamine gets a terribly bad wrap from our society, don't get me wrong im not saying its a compound you should be developing a relationship with, but the stuff really isn't anywhere near as toxic as the general public has been lead to believe.

Phosphorous compounds are rather easily oxidized/hydrolyzed to phosphates.
This is coming from someone who has never even seen the insides of a large scale chemical plant beyond the sulfuric acid one that is close to me.
Most if not all chemicals come with their own individual hazards and depending on which chemical is being produced, the hazards and means of dealing with those hazards will differ significantly.

I don't think phosphine is produced very often in industry and when it is, its more often a side product and i would suspect it would be burnt to destroy it.
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Also, are there any old production sites in America for things like steel and "crude chemicals"? What are crude chemicals? Any new production sites?

Not gonna answer most of this question as i really have no idea. However crude chemicals i think just refers to impure chemicals, whether these get purified or sold/used as is will again depend entirely on the actual chemical.
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What if things hit the fan and we go to war with China, how would we compete when all are starting materials come from those countries?

Political question really. I doubt america would go to war with china no matter how retarded each others leadership may be, a war would likely mean a few hundred million dead if not a few billion.
I suspect no one will be the victor and society will collapse in which case there will be no industry.

The only war that would not mean the annihilation of both countries would be a cold one, which would mean trade between both countries would cease.
We cannot truly predict the future so this question is kinda like asking - "what happens if world war 3 happens", The question answers itself really.
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When did production get phased out?

It didn't, some of it may have been changed to fit regulations or technology though.
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How much money can one get out of a person before they collapse? How efficient can some people work and why?

Depends on the person and how much value you are giving to their work.
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How can we compete with such s high cost of labor? Higher prices?

Easy, bring back slavery.

WangleSpong5000 - 27-12-2017 at 02:34

Sorry but I don't think this belongs in Detrious at all.

The danger from home meth laboratories; and I use the word 'laboratory' very loosly. Primarily come from highly flammable substances used as solvents which are utilized for different purposes when making Methamphetamine. The biggest danger; at least in the immediate vicinty, is labs exploding and/or catching fire from the ignition of these solvents due to incredibly poor safety practices... these people are usually uneducated, (as in have little more than grade school levels of education) unintelligent and are definately meth junkies. Meth is NOT demon the authorities make it out to be. It is when you do the drug everyday as you wont eat, drink or sleep and lack of sleep severely effects your ability to do pretty much anything. In my country lots of people do meth and the vast majority have jobs or go to university (or both) and lead quite normal lives.

You will not get hooked after having it once... it's not actually physically addictive at all. You'll crave it, you'll feel low on energy if you don't use it and are used to using it but it is not like alcohol, herion or benzos where your body physically needs it and you go into a state of withdrawal which in the case of alcohol and benzos can kill you if you stop it abruptly. This is usually due to seizures... a hospital or clinic actually has to give to give you the drug or can die. They must be slowly reduced over a period of time to get off them... opiates are a bit different, the withdrawal will make you feel like you're dying but will not actually die. It's overdose that kills herion addicts due to respitory depression ie your body will no longer automatically breath for you and this kills you. Stimulants do no such thing... if you have waaaaaay too much it may induce psychosis but this effect in a stimulant addict is usually due to lack of sleep. A small number of ppl go into a psychotic state due to any amount of dopaminergic drugs like meth. These ppl rarely become addicts because they flip out everytime they do the drug.

Back to the danger of the synthesis. Non polar solvents are required for the extraction phase ie getting the pseudo out of the tablets. (This is actually very difficult to do know, a complex array of inactive ingredients make extraction essentially pointless) The dangerous part is when they have done the reaction. It's the acid base phase where one of the solvents (and they're doing large amounts) where things like mixed hydrocarbons, ether, and other things are used. Labs blow up because they are using huge amounts of flammable materials in a unventilated space using open flames for heating and dumb shit like smoking cigs all the while...

That was the case in the old days where only a couple of methods were really utized.

Don't believe the hype around meth. Can it be bad? Yes very but not the way they make it out to be. These people are dirt poor as the US has basically 0 welfare, no public health system and a policy that fucks you for a job for life if you have a drug charge. So these people do the only thing they have left... drugs and lots of them because drugs will ALWAYS make you feel good no matter how shit your life is.

unionised - 27-12-2017 at 03:30

Quote: Originally posted by Yttrium2  
So, with the meth scare and all,


What meth scare?

WangleSpong5000 - 27-12-2017 at 04:11

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Quote: Originally posted by Yttrium2  
So, with the meth scare and all,


What meth scare?


In the UK? lol

Why take meth when cocaine is literally everywhere over there and costs an absolute pittance.

Sigmatropic - 27-12-2017 at 04:31

I believe the clean up is to remove residues of mercury. I believe an aerosol is produced in the aluminum-mercury amalgam reduction of some organic substrate. This would spread both the product and mercury around the "laboratory".

[Edited on 27-12-2017 by Sigmatropic]

mayko - 27-12-2017 at 11:21

Quote: Originally posted by Yttrium2  

How is/are phosphorous compounds dealt with industrially? It seems a small accident or spill or grain that lands on a hot surface or cigarette ember could cause an entire refinery to .... I don't even know, smoke, sputter, explode and poison everyone in the vicinity. All jokes aside, this is serious stuff. (I should edit the bullshit)

So how is it dealt with industrially? On such a large scale?



Very carefully. Phosphorus production is also pain to clean up after:
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The closed plant is a 150-acre moonscape of radioactive slag dunes, evaporated tailings ponds, and skeletonized industrial structures visible from Interstates 15 and 90. But the site's most dangerous feature isn't so visible: a 500,000-gallon concrete tank filled with white phosphorus sludge. If the sludge ever touches the atmosphere, it will explode and release a toxic gas.

Currently the dangerous sludge is kept under control by a cap of 2 to 3 feet of water and, on top of that, rows of black plastic "bird balls" to keep migrating fowl from landing. Solvay project site manager Dan Bersanti said last month that if there is any water loss in the tank, an automatic system kicks in and replaces the lost water, so the tank always maintains the 2-to-3-foot water mark.


Hope the power never goes out for an extended period of time....

http://mtstandard.com/natural-resources/the-waste-site-that-...

WangleSpong5000 - 27-12-2017 at 22:51

Sorry. I just realized I kinda derailed this thread... my bad.