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New information For UK chemists

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NEMO-Chemistry - 14-12-2017 at 07:20

This is not speculation, nor is this scare mongering. I have been on the phone to a large chemical supplier who has given me a great deal of information.

Apparently Acetone and 30-40 other common chems like Formaldehyde are either now on, or going on the poisons list next year.

However since June of this year, ALL chemical suppliers have been sending customer order lists to the police. These lists contain all transaction details for around 60 chemicals. The list includes Acetone,Iodine, hydrogen peroxide (12%) etc etc.

The point is the list they are ALL sending to the police, contains chemicals that are not officially controlled, apparently this has become a requirement in order to smooth commerce for the company.

So basically any that refused found it hard to trade. This isnt made up, this was information given to me from a Director of a chemical company, he was genuinely trying to help me out when ordering.

I tried to order Acetone and 12% hydroxide, while not controlled at all, he advised against it. He told me that in conjunction with some other chemicals i had ordered recently, it would likely flag me as a person of possible interest.

He also knows my area, being rural the police dont get much excitement, so i would be ideal fun early one morning (his words).

I am 17 1/2 now, he advised to start a Limited (incorporated company), that does research work. I said i did this as a hobby, he remarked many people who do gold recovery as a hobby have now registered businesses.

So looks like I will go this route, not sure if its worth it, after all it will cost to run a business, especially one that isnt selling anything!!!

BTW Sodium Hydroxide is now, or will be in Jan (cant remember) A class 2 poison and restricted. Poor old soap hobby!

NEMO-Chemistry - 14-12-2017 at 07:52

Rather than edit i decided to do an update.
Since writing the above I thought about everything, then decided I am sick oh hiding in shadows. I am fed up feeling like i am buying anal toys every time i order Acetone, so I called Police Scotland for advice.

They are getting a local inspector (police inspector) to call me tonight, i have asked for contact after 11pm. To cut a long story short, the advice i have had so far is the following.

Discuss what I am doing with the inspector, invite them around to take a look at my lab. Allow them access now and register as a company, they will advise me on anything they feel would flag me up to them. So that is exactly what I am going to do!

Part of me has the fight club mentality (say nothing, admit nothing), but finding out some details about another member here, has made me change my mind. I have nothing to hide, i have spent alot recently getting my lab in shape.

Ok its a hobby, but although i wont be trading as such, it makes sense to do everything as professional as i can.

Further information, while the person i spoke to wasnt sure about some things, they did confirm the following....
Yes chemical companies do supply a weekly list to there local police, they wouldnt say which chemicals exactly, but i have been told that sales of hydrochloric acid etc are watched now, and rules for purchase are likely to change.

This looks like it will get complicated, i dont want time inside so I am going to go the pro route and see what happens, i will update any FACTS i find out. I wont speculate in this thread, just post what I get told, or rather what i am allowed to tell. Something tells me they wont be the same thing!

So lets see exactly what is the best way to practice chemistry in the UK, anyone else in the UK who would like to do things properly, feel free to ask questions. I will put these forward when i get my visit. Thx to Bert for kinda spurring me to do things correctly.

I figure if we want to do chemistry then we are going to have to comply and co operate, if one of us (me) acts as a Guinea pig, then it shouldnt be so bad for others. Pyro stuff i havnt decided what to do yet, cant hurt to discuss it as i dont have anything really pyro yet anyway. Keep in mind many more chemicals are watched and reported than you realize.

That is probally the biggest shock to me of the day, I didnt realize that everyone who uses any kind of legit source is automatically passed on even for non officially watched chemicals. I shouldnt be surprised though, look at the last year in the UK...... Makes sense they are doing this i guess, so i want to be on the right side. I want the visits at a time i know about in advance, i want the visits without the sirens and riot gear and all the vans!

So lets see what happens

DrP - 14-12-2017 at 08:21

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

To cut a long story short, the advice i have had so far is the following.

Discuss what I am doing with the inspector, invite them around to take a look at my lab. Allow them access now and register as a company, they will advise me on anything they feel would flag me up to them. So that is exactly what I am going to do!



Good luck. I would say that being as open an honest as possible would be the way to go - You are doing nothing illegal (I presume) so don't hide it. Although - I have never had a home lab so I am speculating, but I do not see how you could be in trouble for having a home lab if it isn't being used to make explosives or drugs. If you DO make explosives for fun then I might hide that fact, lol.

QUESTION: Acetone is going on the poisons list? Has there been some new studies done under REACH or something - I wasn't aware it was that poisonous... although I think it can be an accumulative poison if it builds in the kidneys or something... I'll have to look it up again.

Magpie - 14-12-2017 at 09:24

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  


However since June of this year, ALL chemical suppliers have been sending customer order lists to the police. These lists contain all transaction details for around 60 chemicals. The list includes Acetone,Iodine, hydrogen peroxide (12%) etc etc.

I tried to order Acetone and 12% hydroxide, while not controlled at all, he advised against it. He told me that in conjunction with some other chemicals i had ordered recently, it would likely flag me as a person of possible interest.

BTW Sodium Hydroxide is now, or will be in Jan (cant remember) A class 2 poison and restricted. Poor old soap hobby!


This is sad. Europe's spate of bombings has put their governments into Orwellian mode.

Although there is nothing like this in the US (that I know of) I have always looked at the events in Europe as an ominous indicator of what will happen in the US at some point. It depends on how intimidated the citizenry becomes due to bombings. So far, we have had very few on a per capita basis. Nobody talks about bombings or drug use where I live.

If I want NaOH, acetone, muriatic acid etc I just go down to Ace hardware and buy all I want, cash, no questions asked.

I recently ordered a pound of P2O5 from Skylighter, no questions asked.

NEMO-Chemistry - 14-12-2017 at 09:38

Quote: Originally posted by DrP  
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

To cut a long story short, the advice i have had so far is the following.

Discuss what I am doing with the inspector, invite them around to take a look at my lab. Allow them access now and register as a company, they will advise me on anything they feel would flag me up to them. So that is exactly what I am going to do!



Good luck. I would say that being as open an honest as possible would be the way to go - You are doing nothing illegal (I presume) so don't hide it. Although - I have never had a home lab so I am speculating, but I do not see how you could be in trouble for having a home lab if it isn't being used to make explosives or drugs. If you DO make explosives for fun then I might hide that fact, lol.

QUESTION: Acetone is going on the poisons list? Has there been some new studies done under REACH or something - I wasn't aware it was that poisonous... although I think it can be an accumulative poison if it builds in the kidneys or something... I'll have to look it up again.


Its slightly unclear if its already class 2 or going to be class 2, there is an extensive list. The reason isnt because its a poison as such, the reason is simple to track ALL chemicals that could/might be used for bad purposes.

While we all know this isnt going to work, the Gov is trying to fight terrorism the best they can, we moan they dont protect, we moan they are invasive.

I suspect they are profiling heavily, or i would have had a visit already. But the point is considering what one member is in prison for.....

It makes sense we stop trying to think out 500ml of Acetone wont be of interest, ironically i have been told small amounts attract the most interest.

I suppose the thinking is, why would a terrorist order 100 ltrs of Acetone to make a bomb? Well TBH he wouldnt would he!
Most order 500ml - 10 ltr.

Bang in the middle of what most of us order, so we naturally attract attention. To me it makes sense that most of us in the UK are already flagged to some degree, how much more we need to do to get a uncalled for visit i dont know.
I think if you have certain surnames etc your more likely than others, lets be honest how would you start to track bad intent?

So personally I am going to see how this all works out, worse case scenario I loose £12 for starting a company, i get all my chems and equipment taken away.

But i dont care, my main concern is i dont ruin my life with a prison sentence, its no longer a case of not doing bad things, alot of it i suspect we are unaware we are doint it wrong, so lets find out! Lets be pro active and actually make an effort to be legal!

I am not suggesting we all do this, i am suggesting I pass on the info, then once we know the facts from that, each can decide if they are going to use the info or not.

j_sum1 - 14-12-2017 at 13:10

Sounds like a good course of action.
You make enough soap to look like a business. Who knows: with a crackdown on KOH your artisan soap made legally may suddenly become extremely profitable.

unionised - 14-12-2017 at 13:23

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  


Although there is nothing like this in the US (that I know of)



You know about Texas' legendary views on a 3 neck flask, don't you?

woelen - 14-12-2017 at 14:01

It is remarkable that there are such large differences between different EU-countries.

I live in NL and regularly order online from dutch or german suppliers. Some chemicals indeed are very hard to find (NH4NO3, NaClO4, KClO4, KClO3, NaClO3, HNO3, H2O2 (> 10%), and increasingly so also NaNO3 and KNO3), but most other chemicals still can be purchased without too much hassle, also stuff like HClO4 (60%), SO2Cl(OH), H3PO4 (98%), red P, I2. Another class of chemicals which are hard to find are inorganic acyl chlorides, like PCl5, POCl3, PCl3, SOCl2. There is no official restriction on these (except in very large quantities, because they can be used as chemical warfare agent precursors), but these are not sold to individuals because of their very risky nature and extreme corrosiveness. Most companies do not want to run the risk of selling these to possibly unknowing people and having reports of accidents with these.

Stuff like acetone, solid NaOH, diethyl ether, HCl (10% and 30%) are still OTC over here and can be purchased without any issues. Concentrated H2SO4 becomes more difficult, some companies want a declaration of use, but it still is sold to individuals more or less OTC.

I have the impression that in the Netherlands the bulk cheap chemicals which can be used for explosives are restricted severely, but that much more expensive, or chemicals one step further away from a bomb still are available. So, KClO4 as a bulk oxidizer is not allowed anymore, but the expensive 60% HClO4 (EUR 50 per liter or so) still is. Terrorists will need a lot of money and a lot of preprocessing if they want to use that chemical for an explosive device. With bulk stuff like NH4NO3 they could make a powerful bomb for EUR 1000 or so, simply by mixing a few compounds. If they want the same with e.g. HClO4 as a basis for making KClO4, then they would need appr. EUR 50000 for a bomb of similar strength and a lot of work to convert the hundreds of liters of HClO4 to dried and finely powdered KClO4 before it can be mixed into a bomb.

But of course, also here in NL things are changing. As soon as I have the impression that I really cannot safely do chemistry experiments anymore without fear of the police running into my house, then I quit. Right now I do not store certain chemicals anymore (one of them is HNO3), but if I need them, I make them in small quantities to be used up quickly. I have a small stock of 90% HNO3 (I think it's around 40 ml), which I made myself and with my microscale experiments this goes a long way. If this is nearly used up I may make a little more and use that again, but I do not store a few liters of HNO3 anymore. It is not allowed anymore. The same is true for KClO3. I made some by means of electrolysis (see my webpage) and I still have some (I think appr. 100 grams), but buying it and keeping a kilo of it around is not done anymore.

The only real annoyance is that I cannot easily make 30% H2O2. I can buy 10% H2O2, but making it more concentrated without big losses has proven to be less trivial than many people think it is. CH3NO2 is another hard to make yourself thing, but that chemical is not very important. When it was still available, I hardly used it, I can do perfectly fine without it. Na- and K-Perchlorates also are not very interesting for me. I do no pyrotechnics (not allowed at all in NL) and for aqueous chemistry I can use neutralized HClO4 (albeit at high cost) and NH4ClO4 (also at fairly high cost) which are interesting for making certain transition metal complexes which can be crystallized easily.

aga - 14-12-2017 at 14:19

Sadly he UK will likely crack down MORE after the Brexit disaster, as the powers that be seem to have the idea that all terrorists make their own explosives in a soup tin in their kitchen.

The rest of Europe knows that the terrorists do not make their AK47s or C4 that way, so focus less on the availability of chemicals.

Personally i think the UK being OUT of any EU decision-making is a good thing.

Sad for UK businesses maybe, but better for the much larger EU as a whole.

Some member states clearly have their own Agenda, which is why we see craziness in Holland and England and not in Spain etc.

NEMO-Chemistry - 14-12-2017 at 14:24

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
It is remarkable that there are such large differences between different EU-countries.

I live in NL and regularly order online from dutch or german suppliers. Some chemicals indeed are very hard to find (NH4NO3, NaClO4, KClO4, KClO3, NaClO3, HNO3, H2O2 (> 10%), and increasingly so also NaNO3 and KNO3), but most other chemicals still can be purchased without too much hassle, also stuff like HClO4 (60%), SO2Cl(OH), H3PO4 (98%), red P, I2. Another class of chemicals which are hard to find are inorganic acyl chlorides, like PCl5, POCl3, PCl3, SOCl2. There is no official restriction on these (except in very large quantities, because they can be used as chemical warfare agent precursors), but these are not sold to individuals because of their very risky nature and extreme corrosiveness. Most companies do not want to run the risk of selling these to possibly unknowing people and having reports of accidents with these.

Stuff like acetone, solid NaOH, diethyl ether, HCl (10% and 30%) are still OTC over here and can be purchased without any issues. Concentrated H2SO4 becomes more difficult, some companies want a declaration of use, but it still is sold to individuals more or less OTC.

I have the impression that in the Netherlands the bulk cheap chemicals which can be used for explosives are restricted severely, but that much more expensive, or chemicals one step further away from a bomb still are available. So, KClO4 as a bulk oxidizer is not allowed anymore, but the expensive 60% HClO4 (EUR 50 per liter or so) still is. Terrorists will need a lot of money and a lot of preprocessing if they want to use that chemical for an explosive device. With bulk stuff like NH4NO3 they could make a powerful bomb for EUR 1000 or so, simply by mixing a few compounds. If they want the same with e.g. HClO4 as a basis for making KClO4, then they would need appr. EUR 50000 for a bomb of similar strength and a lot of work to convert the hundreds of liters of HClO4 to dried and finely powdered KClO4 before it can be mixed into a bomb.

But of course, also here in NL things are changing. As soon as I have the impression that I really cannot safely do chemistry experiments anymore without fear of the police running into my house, then I quit. Right now I do not store certain chemicals anymore (one of them is HNO3), but if I need them, I make them in small quantities to be used up quickly. I have a small stock of 90% HNO3 (I think it's around 40 ml), which I made myself and with my microscale experiments this goes a long way. If this is nearly used up I may make a little more and use that again, but I do not store a few liters of HNO3 anymore. It is not allowed anymore. The same is true for KClO3. I made some by means of electrolysis (see my webpage) and I still have some (I think appr. 100 grams), but buying it and keeping a kilo of it around is not done anymore.

The only real annoyance is that I cannot easily make 30% H2O2. I can buy 10% H2O2, but making it more concentrated without big losses has proven to be less trivial than many people think it is. CH3NO2 is another hard to make yourself thing, but that chemical is not very important. When it was still available, I hardly used it, I can do perfectly fine without it. Na- and K-Perchlorates also are not very interesting for me. I do no pyrotechnics (not allowed at all in NL) and for aqueous chemistry I can use neutralized HClO4 (albeit at high cost) and NH4ClO4 (also at fairly high cost) which are interesting for making certain transition metal complexes which can be crystallized easily.


So far everyone i have spoke with, have been extremely frank with me. In the UK we have had more attacks than most EU countries, so i think the Government is very jumpy, plus politically its a weak government.

A recent report on the Manchester bomb, concluded it may have been possible to stop it. So now everyone is wanting more action, few realize that action = loss of rights.

I had no idea that most chemicals not even restricted, were now routinely reported to the police weekly. Yes I make alot of soap, so for me apart from paper work, it might be a good idea to form a company (actually i am now incorporated as from today).

I think in some ways its time to come out the shadows, the more we hide the more things are misunderstood. Maybe if more home chemists come forward, then just maybe licenses would get handed out.

I honestly dont know, i dont know most the questions, let alone the answers! So i have decided its worth trying a different approach. So far the police have been really friendly and surprisingly in favor.

I spent a long time talking to them soon the phone, i have one calling back later. But my impression is certainly different from previous experiences with the local police.

When i suggested they visit me and see what i was doing, the response was really positive. So much so i honestly think its the way forward. We dont have anything to hide, the more we are open the less reason to hound and restrict us.

We have a license system, so i figure its worth showing we can be granted licenses. I am not suggesting everyone do this yet, there could be a sting in the tail. But i am willing to stick my head up and see what happens.

I think recent events have shown we need to be careful, clearly they have no issue locking people up. If i can develop a decent relationship with the police (never thought i would ever say that!) then it can only help.

Yeah the soap thing occur to me :D, time to think about upping production :D. The new rules if they go through, will kill off home chemistry. Acetic acid >10% will be a no no.

Magpie - 14-12-2017 at 14:44

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  


Although there is nothing like this in the US (that I know of)



You know about Texas' legendary views on a 3 neck flask, don't you?


Yes, I am well aware of this ridiculous law. Thank Science I don't live in that state. However zts16 doesn't seem to worry about it.

I was specifically commenting on the control of common hardware store chemicals. We have our own ludicrous rules against iodine and red P, however.

[Edited on 14-12-2017 by Magpie]

NEMO-Chemistry - 15-12-2017 at 18:36

Well no one has called me back yet, but its the weekend and near Christmas, so I am not surprised it might be a few days before they do call. I have found some cheap Haz Chem Cabinets online, a good price and a couple are flammable ones.

I have started downloading all the files for storage etc, there is loads more than i realized! Even if I end up just making soap, i dont think I got much choice but to do things properly. Only people being an arse so far is a couple of low grade chem companies that most amateurs use.

I called Fischer today, they are happy to supply a small start up but no credit for 3-6 months (they want a history first, i dont want/need credit anyway). Give me until next week and I will upload all the relevant info i have found, its upto the individual how they do there hobby, but lets face it, the more accurate info we have the better.

Also called the fire Brigade, they will come up when i ask and have a look. The guy i spoke with was really helpful, i managed to talk to the nearest station to me as well, they have even offered to supply a couple of blankets and extinguishers if needed.

Actually the fire people have been really good, there attitude is one of prevention and assistance. The guy in charge locally has said they would rather help and advise than drag dead people out a building. I am sure its not going to be this smooth all the way, but so far i have been surprised how much help has been offered.

As a side note..... Anyone know of a simple image editing program for an android device? I got some pics to upload but cant get them onto the pc?? Before i upload them they need a tweak size wise.



[Edited on 16-12-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

j_sum1 - 15-12-2017 at 20:07

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

As a side note..... Anyone know of a simple image editing program for an android device? I got some pics to upload but cant get them onto the pc?? Before i upload them they need a tweak size wise.


I use a thing called Photo Editor (imaginative name). It is surprisingly powerful and works well.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.iudesk.and...

NEMO-Chemistry - 15-12-2017 at 20:36

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

As a side note..... Anyone know of a simple image editing program for an android device? I got some pics to upload but cant get them onto the pc?? Before i upload them they need a tweak size wise.


I use a thing called Photo Editor (imaginative name). It is surprisingly powerful and works well.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.iudesk.and...


Great thx for that. The tablet has a cam but i wasnt sure about image software for android.

NEMO-Chemistry - 19-12-2017 at 04:00

The police have been, somewhat a strange experience. They are apparently coming back in the new year, i didnt get much information out of them, but i dont think they were expecting what they found.

So next visit is with someone higher up and an expert apparently.

I will post up more detail later, it wasnt what i was expecting however.

BJ68 - 19-12-2017 at 23:26

Quote: Originally posted by aga  


Personally i think the UK being OUT of any EU decision-making is a good thing.


Sorry to disappoint you, but do you really believe that the collaboration in that issue will be cancelled?

For example adding "sulfuric acid with more than 40%" to Annex I of the Regulation 98/2013 (Forbidden to own, to prepare and use for private citizen) http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=23212&...

Or matchsticks http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=23212&... and the moron of New York https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/11/nyregion/port-authority-b... used them.

It will be clear for me, that this GB behavior will be adopted to other countries....okay it can be that real implementation will differ, but under the line it will get at the same level, because it will be forced through the EU.

Bj68

NEMO-Chemistry - 24-12-2017 at 09:59

The UK is bringing ALL EU law into UK law, so nothing will change from our perspective, plus a trade deal will certainly involve parity with the EU. Its a shame, but i have to agree and say that we will still get the shitty end of the EU law wise.

The Sulphuric acid and other chemicals that are set to change in 2018, are being altered when they bring EU law into UK law. This is something I have been warned about, one of the bigger chem companies has given me alot of info on this. Many chemicals will be illegal for people to use,own or buy before 2018 is out. they expect it to happen as the EU law bills go through.

They have been warned about the changes already, the real bastard of this is the declaration you sign as a company when buying, you have to list ALL uses. No longer can you simply list a chemical as general laboratory reagent!

The problem with this is going to be the wording of the law, it means you can only use the chemicals for the uses you signed it for. Plus new rules will mean you have to keep records of what is used and how much, as well as what it was used for. There are a few ways to get some leg room on this, but i wont post those until i am sure.

What is really going to hit is sodium Hydroxide, this will be limited to 3% solutions. The home soap market is massive, this will restrict home soap makers to using pre made bases only (melt and pour types). The list of chemicals being added is around 147 more so far.

NEMO-Chemistry - 24-12-2017 at 10:41

The other thing I will add to the above in the next couple of days, is information on going the business route and/or informing the police, this isnt as simple as it seems. Yes starting a business is £24, but there are some pitfalls including planning permission etc, apparently the police have a planning official for labs etc, the guy that came out was also the local police planning guy.

Already there is a small dispute between us over planning, he thinks i need to apply for change of use certificate, i KNOW i dont need too as the building should be covered already. The other thing that cropped up was the small lab in my house, i can keep it for microscope work and a few other things, but it cant be a part of the 'business'!

I will explain more once I have gone back over the paper work, the other problem is the UK is four countries, dont be fooled into thinking that legally they are the same!! The biggest difference is Scotland to the rest of the UK, plus NI which is totally different again.

I can give information I am 99.9% certain is right for Scotland, but where needed I will warn if England may be different. Also we had a chimney fire (was really scary, but fuck all damage except to the chimney liner), the fire brigade turned up for a couple of hours so i had a chance to chat to them. They were excellent with advice etc, so I will pass this on as well.

They are dropping off a couple of free fire extinguishers for my lab FOC early in Jan!! Apparently after a fire they come back a week or so later anyway, they are going to sort out a plan with me. They will add my address to the system as B.A dwelling so in future if they turn up they will automatically know where the list of chems are kept and enter with BA gear on.

So far they have been the most helpful, the police have been OK, the ones you speak with in the office are more helpful than the general cops, the specialist thats coming out i have spoken to on the phone, he seems reasonable. The planning guy for the police is a bit of a nob, but the worse one so far is a real jobsworth. Lucky enough I dont think he will have much input.

Just as another snipit of info...electricity... Suddenly start using more than 20% more electric than those around you, or 20% more than is normal for you and you get flagged to the police. Now i am lucky, technically the place where I live is classed as an estate/farm, in my post code is only a few other homes and they are all farms, so electric use around here is pretty high.

I know we use alot less than most, also i have a generator, so this may be why i havnt flagged yet. But once this is sorted out i dont have to worry, i am aware the police helicopter knows we have two large poly tunnels and a couple green houses. I really want to know why this hasnt caused a visit before now, the info might be useful to others.

Also I think when Bloggers get back, it would be useful to hear his story, after alot of digging it would appear there were some good reasons he got on the wrong side. It isnt for me to say, but if others are worried they are on the wrong side, its unlikely many would get into his situation. BTW all court appearances are transcribed, you can get the information with a FOI request with a half decent reason (law research is good enough).

I didnt want to pry into others business, but it did concern me, i made some assumptions that concerned me. As it turns out i honestly doubt most would fall into the same trap that happened in that case. Lets hope he is back on here soon, i kinda miss the helpful but sometimes ascorbic replies he gave :D.

NEMO-Chemistry - 26-12-2017 at 05:53

The file attached is about chem storage rules, its a uni document however. Also note i havnt posted the actual rules and laws as this is about to change in the next couple of weeks. I might post the outdated version once i get a reliable copy that covers all the UK.

The PDF reads as advisory, but alot of it is about to get more teeth in law.

Added a couple more files, one has a good chart in it.


Attachment: chem-storage.pdf (238kB)
This file has been downloaded 2445 times

[Edited on 26-12-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

Attachment: chem-storage-gn.pdf (520kB)
This file has been downloaded 715 times

Attachment: DMEU_TDS_00320_EN_std.lang.all.pdf (2.8MB)
This file has been downloaded 702 times

NEMO-Chemistry - 26-12-2017 at 10:04

I have joined this for a free two week trial https://chemicalwatch.com/
I will join again once its more clear where the UK is heading rule wise with Brexit. So far the best place for accurate info is some the smaller chem companies in the UK, they are applying the law to the letter in most cases.

Not very helpful people, but Atom Scientific has several brands, the other main one is ACP Pure. look on the Atom scientific brand website at the chems, any listed as needing a declaration, will definitely (as it stands today date) be regarded as class 1 chems (maybe a couple will be class2) in 2018.

Keep in mind the whole brexit law transcribe thing wont apply to the letter with chemicals, read the above website i linked too for an explanation of this.

I will post COSHH info and REACH info, but be aware this is too be regarded as the bare minimum of what you need to do, it seems the police had a better understanding in 2015 than they do today (they are unsure how many of the changes are effective already, at least in Scotland).

Please try and comply with the storage standards, it isnt just you or me that is affected by bad practice. What each person does or dosnt do, will affect EVERYONE in the hobby. I will post the list from REACH as it stands now, notice that ALL class 3 chems (like Acetone) are reported on a weekly basis to the police.

So anyone selling you Acetone etc should be giving the details to the police, potassium permanganate is class 2, dont be fooled by the 10kg thing, buying 100g of it will get you reported, but unlikely you will get a visit.
At the moment the police seem reasonable if your proactive, this might change.

This wall chart is from the government site, however note its misleading!! ANYTHING listed on Atom Scientific as needing a declaration of use is reported weekly. This includes stuff like Chloroform.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...

This information from REACH is out of date, but look at items like potassium Dichromate and the sunset date that has just passed (sept 2017), then look at the other sunset dates for 2017.

In the UK at least, all these chemicals will be put into the new law when EU law is transferred into UK law.

https://echa.europa.eu/authorisation-list

[Edited on 26-12-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

[Edited on 26-12-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

The Volatile Chemist - 26-12-2017 at 20:18

This is a great resource - I'm not from the UK so most of it doesn't apply, but this is a wonderfully helpful read-through.

DavidJR - 1-1-2018 at 14:41

Very frustrating indeed.

If posession of KOH, NaOH, and H2SO4 is criminalized, then that'll make just about everyone with drain/oven/toilet cleaner a criminal.

I also find it entertaining that technically as an individual you now need an EPP license to legally possess mercury metal/compounds (I bet loads of people have old mercury thermometers lying about. What about tooth fillings?!) and oxalic acid (ok sure, it's poisonous, but so long as you don't go eating or snorting it it's really not a problem to handle it).

NEMO-Chemistry - 1-1-2018 at 15:09

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Very frustrating indeed.

If posession of KOH, NaOH, and H2SO4 is criminalized, then that'll make just about everyone with drain/oven/toilet cleaner a criminal.

I also find it entertaining that technically as an individual you now need an EPP license to legally possess mercury metal/compounds (I bet loads of people have old mercury thermometers lying about. What about tooth fillings?!) and oxalic acid (ok sure, it's poisonous, but so long as you don't go eating or snorting it it's really not a problem to handle it).


Well some of those you mention are still in the sunset period i think.
Mercury in thermometers is covered by the scientific instrument exemption, break the thermometer and store the Mercury however and then your breaking the law.

I am waiting on more information, which hopefully now the Holiday period is nearly over, i should be able to make more progress.

Its alot more complicated than it first appears, and yes alot of it is virtually unworkable. BUT I started the research because someone DID fall foul of the law.

Once i get alot more solid information, and keep in mind Brexit will have its own impact for the UK on the rules. I will post the facts on a website i am setting up, that way there will be an upto date resource available for the Uk. Much of it is likely to also help alot of the EU chemists here.

The sodium hydroxide and some the other chemicals wont have to be banned as such, they have a clever way of not needing a ban. The government is placing extremely tight restrictions on suppliers, the paperwork they have to keep and submit, means that most chemical suppliers are effectively policing the system for the government for free.

So i suspect, as is already the case for a large number of chems, they wont have to ban them, you just wont be able to actually get hold of them without a license or correct company SIC number.

Alot of chem suppliers are already asking for declaration forms etc for Sulphuric acid and such. There is a couple of companies that dont, but they wont last much longer and i wont be naming them.

DavidJR - 1-1-2018 at 15:37

I was curious as to how easy it may be to obtain an EPP license, so I have just submitted a FOIA request to the Home Office asking for statistics. You can follow the progress of it here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/explosives_precursors...

NEMO-Chemistry - 1-1-2018 at 19:52

I did the same a little while back, at the time the count was 0.

The police have suggestead a number of reasons for this, however maybe a few have been issued now. The problem however is knowing WHY they were granted.

The chances are if any have been granted, then its for business reasons... Thx for doing another FOI though, i will watch with interest

[Edited on 2-1-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]

BJ68 - 2-1-2018 at 21:50

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
oxalic acid (ok sure, it's poisonous, but so long as you don't go eating or snorting it it's really not a problem to handle it).


Sorry got something wrong....

Bj68

[Edited on 3-1-2018 by BJ68]

NEMO-Chemistry - 4-1-2018 at 19:02

Oxalic is a strange one, it isnt enforced currently, although it is reported and you do have to declare use. Oxalic acid is a double edge sword for the authorities. Its used a great deal in Bee keeping, there are few bee keepers considering the total number of hives.

So for those with a couple hundred hives some have thousands) 10% solution just isnt practical or economic to use, so if the government enforce it strongly, then the bees which are already in massive decline, will suffer even more.

So I think Oxalic acid is a bit of a stand off, at least where I am. I think its going to stay that way at least for this year and maybe next, Bees got hammered last year. I know one local keeper lost 120 out of 230 hives last year.

The wild hives we have in our wood have also decreased alot, so far I know of only one tree with live bees inside, its a real shame.

Magpie - 4-1-2018 at 20:07

I use oxalic acid (Bartender's Friend) almost daily to clean my sink and glass top stove. It's non-abrasive and an excellent cleaner. Why on earth would a country ban oxalic acid?

NEMO-Chemistry - 5-1-2018 at 01:44

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
I use oxalic acid (Bartender's Friend) almost daily to clean my sink and glass top stove. It's non-abrasive and an excellent cleaner. Why on earth would a country ban oxalic acid?

I think its an EU directive, so not sure but i think the entire EU is affected, however as I pointed out you can still get it with little trouble. I havnt been able to find out for sure if its banned, or simply on the watch list...

The list of banned substances is a little confused at the moment, but for now they wont enforce it because apparently Bees are in really bad shape.

NEMO-Chemistry - 6-1-2018 at 06:48

I have been given information from someone who has actually been granted a license! I dont know many details yet, one thing that was mentioned however, leads me to believe the granting is fairly strict. I do not want to give alot of detail yet, I need a little time to get the facts from the person concerned.

Also it would do us no good if suddenly everyone applies for the license using the same reasons etc. This is the third one I am aware of and the first one not connected with a business. So this is good news!

A big thank you to the person who contacted me, once I have had a chance to talk them, and if they agree, then I will post more details.

DavidJR - 8-1-2018 at 07:16

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
Oxalic is a strange one, it isnt enforced currently, although it is reported and you do have to declare use. Oxalic acid is a double edge sword for the authorities.


I have purchased oxalic acid recently and never had to declare the use.

NEMO-Chemistry - 8-1-2018 at 21:35

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
Oxalic is a strange one, it isnt enforced currently, although it is reported and you do have to declare use. Oxalic acid is a double edge sword for the authorities.


I have purchased oxalic acid recently and never had to declare the use.

Its currently easy to get, not 100% on sunshine date i need to check. But you can go look at the list yourself, its listed as a max of 10% solution only.

In reality I honestly think this is a blind eye one, the deaths were murders and it was a strange case itself. Considering its importance to bee health, i think you will be able to get this for a while yet. Be aware it is on the banned above 10% list without a license though..

In all honesty its the probaly the strangest chemical on the list.

This thread is about the law, not what you can get hold of, i know of two places still selling conc Nitric acid, this dosnt make it legal.

NEMO-Chemistry - 12-1-2018 at 09:54

Well had another visit.

This one not so good! The arrangement was for them to call me and arrange a day and time to come back. They just turned up, no expert with them. This time was slightly bizarre, the main policeman was one of the original ones, he had obviously been on google looking up the law.

First words out of his mouth were.............
Do you have Nitric Acid? Well yes obviously as it was on the list i gave him last time. He then asked if I had a EPP license, i replied NO.

All three stiffened and stepped forward a bit, so straightaway i said i dont need one. He asked why and i explained the Ltd company, this is where it gets really messy. He said my address is residential and therefore i couldnt have a business premise for chemicals.

Actually this isnt accurate for my address, it was a farm and then a dairy and then a workshop and so on. It also has a buildings a bit like a steding. These have running water and sewage and electric, they are also classed in part as commercial, this is because part of the Dairy used to be in one part of the building.

Apparently he is going to check this when he gets back, and also check to see if I have a change of use in place. I went and got the paperwork for the company and gave him both SIC numbers and the company reg number.

My original plan after the last visit was to have a solicitor with me when they came back, obviously i didnt have a chance to do that as they didnt call first. They asked to see my chemicals and storage. Right or wrong I declined this.

Originally i had offered to cooperate fully, this time felt different. I am sure this time wasnt intended as a friendly visit. He asked if I had Hydrogen peroxide, i said not at the moment. He asked how much i intended to keep in the future.

At that point i said i would cooperate once they had someone with them that was an expert and understood the law. I said i would supply a list once i had spoken with a solicitor, i asked for his contact details and he refused!! (funny thing is he gave me a card last time!!).

So I am not sure where things stand, i checked with my solicitor, and i am legal 99.99%. The one thing i dont yet comply with is to do with SEEPA and waste water, it dosnt actually apply to my situation, but i need the paper to say so.

I was asked a huge number of questions, alot of them i feel they had no right or reason to ask, the tone was also very different this time. Strange as two of the three had been before, one i have spoken with on the phone a few times.

I am waiting to hear back from my solicitor, at the moment i have no idea if or when they will be back. Instinct i am positive they will be back. Scotland is well known for a much harsher legal approach, but i am surprised the visit was so different this time.

Last time was more like a chat, this time it was questions being barked at me. I have spent £175 in legal advice so far, but i think its been well spent. Current advice is to call the solicitor if they just turn up again, he is willing to go on speaker phone and sort out potential problems.

I will update when anything else happens.

As a side note the Fire people have been back, they have been great as usual.

Magpie - 12-1-2018 at 11:01

This is all just incredible to me. I admire you for the way you are dealing with these policemen, not asking for a warrant, etc. It is incredible that they wouldn't give you their contact number. Are they secret police? Be sure to have your lawyer on the phone next time. That should cool their jets.

You were wise not to allow them to inspect your storage of chemicals. I may be weak here. I keep no MSDSs. All my chemicals are labeled and dated, but not stored with regard to compatibility very much, more just alphabetical. My jug storage of flammables is outside in a shed.

I treat my waste to make it as innocuous as possible. I take heavy metals and real nasty, insoluble, stinky stuff down to the community collection point. The container is fully labeled. I burn my flammable waste and mix my occasional horrible, insoluble, non-flammable waste with kitty litter and dispose it with my other household garbage. US law on "small quantity generators" in regard to waste disposal may save me there. My hood vent is about 12 feet above grade.

I feel that I am excellent in fire prevention/abatement and accident prevention/amelioration. My hood glass is shatterproof double pane. I work with small quantities of chemicals, usually less than 100 mL.

I have never been visited by the police or fire department. I am loosening up greatly in regard to whom I show my lab. I talk about it freely to people I like. Most just find it interesting. They don't want to use my antibiotics and pain killers, however

NEMO-Chemistry - 12-1-2018 at 13:29

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
This is all just incredible to me. I admire you for the way you are dealing with these policemen, not asking for a warrant, etc. It is incredible that they wouldn't give you their contact number. Are they secret police? Be sure to have your lawyer on the phone next time. That should cool their jets.

You were wise not to allow them to inspect your storage of chemicals. I may be weak here. I keep no MSDSs. All my chemicals are labeled and dated, but not stored with regard to compatibility very much, more just alphabetical. My jug storage of flammables is outside in a shed.

I treat my waste to make it as innocuous as possible. I take heavy metals and real nasty, insoluble, stinky stuff down to the community collection point. The container is fully labeled. I burn my flammable waste and mix my occasional horrible, insoluble, non-flammable waste with kitty litter and dispose it with my other household garbage. US law on "small quantity generators" in regard to waste disposal may save me there. My hood vent is about 12 feet above grade.

I feel that I am excellent in fire prevention/abatement and accident prevention/amelioration. My hood glass is shatterproof double pane. I work with small quantities of chemicals, usually less than 100 mL.

I have never been visited by the police or fire department. I am loosening up greatly in regard to whom I show my lab. I talk about it freely to people I like. Most just find it interesting. They don't want to use my antibiotics and pain killers, however



I got the contact details last time, the main guy was really nice last time. The other one that was there both visits, is a bit of a dick anyway, but the new guy is the one I think changed things.

No one seemed relaxed this time, he had a typed sheet of questions with him, they were based on things we discussed last time.

Its just speculation at the moment, but i think whats happened is, the guy has gone back and googled the chemicals and the law. He see's a 17 year old with (in his mind), alot of bad shit.

One wasnt in uniform, so he is CID (our version of a defective). The older guy did seem to relax a little once I gave them a copy of my company number and incorporation cert.

I couldnt deny them too much access, the original invite to them was from me. I asked for them to visit so i could actually find out what is and isnt allowed, also how do they react etc.

Something has made them jumpy since the last visit. They also asked for a list of my suppliers, this I fudged. Basically i said Fischer,Atom scientific and any legit company i can find that has what I need.

If the next visit isnt planned and they turn up, then i will get a letter done from my solicitor. I want to cooperate, but i see this as being on my terms not theirs.

I didnt have to invite them, i could have continued under the radar, but i feel its time we find out where we are in the UK.

What worries me is, I am a legit business on paper. Ok in reality its a non profit research company if you want to label it. Thats how its been registered anyway.

My labels are also an issue at the moment, i am unsure of the system to use. It seems straight forward, but the rules are confusing when you read them, also i found out the symbols have a hierarchy! You have to have the most important one first.

Its unclear which label system you have to use if you repack. Whatever happens i have no choice but to see this through to the end. Genuinely this has been done to help others, part of me wishes i had just registered a company and kept my mouth shut.

But i think about whats happened, and TBH doing this is likely the biggest contribution i can make to the forum. I am never going to be a chemist, i am never going to reach the standard of most here.
So I opted to contribute in this way.

End of the day i am young with balls of steel and indestructible!! An invisible force field protects me from harm.
I am assured this shield lasts until around the age of 25, apparently after 25 the shield is taken away and you dont feel invincible. I am skeptical of this at the moment :D.

Magpie - 12-1-2018 at 14:55

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

... and TBH doing this is likely the biggest contribution i can make to the forum. I am never going to be a chemist, i am never going to reach the standard of most here.


bullshit, bullshit, and double bullshit. You are going to be a great chemist.
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

... i am young with balls of steel ....


agreed

Melgar - 12-1-2018 at 18:02

Here in the US, if someone wants to go on a murderous rampage, all they need to do is drive to the nearest red state and visit a gun shop. Seems a bit silly to ban potential bomb-making chemicals as long as that's still an option.

Also, the immigrants that get Americans upset usually just want to join us, not kill us or take us over.

DavidJR - 12-1-2018 at 18:48

Sorry to hear about your unpleasant experience, NEMO-Chemistry. Thanks for sharing all of this information though, it's very helpful.

I am also struggling with the labelling situation.


Still waiting on a response to that FOIA request re EPP licences. I do wonder, though, whether it's even worth bothering to apply. It seems that just forming a limited company will be easier, but of course that has many other implications beyond possessing/acquiring chemicals, e.g. accounting/taxation. The £40 fee is offputting, as is the (imo wasteful, invasive, and discriminatory) need to get a medical report from a doctor just because of my anxiety disorder. Add to that the licence only lasts for 3 years, and the question of how distance selling of these chemicals will work when the seller is required to complete a paper record on your licence.

NEMO-Chemistry - 12-1-2018 at 20:13

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Sorry to hear about your unpleasant experience, NEMO-Chemistry. Thanks for sharing all of this information though, it's very helpful.

I am also struggling with the labelling situation.


Still waiting on a response to that FOIA request re EPP licences. I do wonder, though, whether it's even worth bothering to apply. It seems that just forming a limited company will be easier, but of course that has many other implications beyond possessing/acquiring chemicals, e.g. accounting/taxation. The £40 fee is offputting, as is the (imo wasteful, invasive, and discriminatory) need to get a medical report from a doctor just because of my anxiety disorder. Add to that the licence only lasts for 3 years, and the question of how distance selling of these chemicals will work when the seller is required to complete a paper record on your licence.


I now KNOW for sure several have been issued. BUT and its a big but, it wont help home chemist in the slightest.

The ones I am now aware of being issued, come with stringent conditions of use. Lets say you want Nitric acid to recover gold, no chance. If you want it to do something that cant be done any other way then yes, but you got to record the use each time and the amount. If you use it for anything but the reason stated on the EPP then its a shit storm.

I dont mind the bad experience, the whole point of doing it was so we had accurate info. I know i am safe from prison, worse that hopefully can happen, is i have to close my company and get rid the chems i need a license for.

I always knew it was likely to get a little nasty at some point. We assume the police know the rules inside out, but they dont, few people do!

So this is a way to get information and pass it on, i didnt bother going the EPP route, there is no point, even if you get it, it wouldnt allow general home chemistry. The license dosnt work that way, it reads like it does, but in reality it comes with alot of restrictions on.

Even as a company I am restricted to uses that my SIC numbers and declarations of use say i need it for.

Fleaker - 13-1-2018 at 19:18

I happen to know a gent in the UK that has a business handling high end telecom gear for huge companies. As an aside, he is recovering gold from electronics in a purpose built laboratory off of his house. He applied for all the use permits, had inspections and such, and keeps a stock of sodium cyanide, nitric acid, and hydrochloric acid, amongst other inorganic reagents.

He is definitely using nitric acid in the recovery of gold. His operation is also one that makes revenue and pays taxes, and is not a hobby. Is that perhaps the difference?

NEMO-Chemistry - 15-1-2018 at 09:58

Quote: Originally posted by Fleaker  
I happen to know a gent in the UK that has a business handling high end telecom gear for huge companies. As an aside, he is recovering gold from electronics in a purpose built laboratory off of his house. He applied for all the use permits, had inspections and such, and keeps a stock of sodium cyanide, nitric acid, and hydrochloric acid, amongst other inorganic reagents.

He is definitely using nitric acid in the recovery of gold. His operation is also one that makes revenue and pays taxes, and is not a hobby. Is that perhaps the difference?


Yes, my understanding and experience is the license he has, restricts him to the use of the materials for a specific purpose. he is supposed to log every ml used and what specifically he used it for.

For example he would have to declare the exact use of the Nitric acid, he also would have to give a idea of quantity per year (its changing to monthly) he uses.

To all purposes he is a sole trader business, if he did amateur chemistry on the side, he could use say 1ltr of nitric acid in experiments, unless on the business side he could account for its use.

Plus you have to report losses of chemicals, no idea yet of the minimum amount, but I do know when i said 10 ltr of Nitric acid a year I got a look.

I havnt verified yet, but i think reports of losses are done on a % basis rather than an amount.

Most amateurs have no specific purpose for Nitric acid, most of us would list it as 'general reagent', you cant do this under the license. Even when you buy it you have to declare the exact purpose of that purchase, this information is then given to the police each week.

Now most will think haha I can see a way around this, and indeed you could get around that part.
BUT get inspected or someone just turn up, if your paperwork dosnt match or your not 100%, your in a real lot of trouble.

So far what really bothers me, the police are making the decisions, there seems to be no real expert that comes with them. So its really hard to explain stuff to them, they take notes and go away, then they come back and deliver the verdict.

My gut instinct is I have another week this week or next, i am not expecting anyone with brains to turn up. I have been told my acid cupboard is not adequate.
I know for a fact it is correct, it came from a university! It was purchased and then wasnt needed, i was asked if i wanted it. I have made some good contacts at universities, a couple of them are actively helping me as part of there community outreach programs.

Your friend sounds like he has done alot of research, if he has been granted a license then he has passed some strict criteria, but i suspect he has little wiggle room with the chemicals.

I am really surprised he has been allowed a building attached to his house, but this may be a Scottish difference, up here the police planning guy would veto that.

NEMO-Chemistry - 26-1-2018 at 11:44

Update to do...

I have some information, having had another visit. I want to post the experience straight away, but I am told to wait a little bit. So Monday I will post up the latest visit, I will say it explains alot and was a real eye opener.

I am also starting to see how another member, got so much trouble. At first I placed alot of the blame on them, but I am starting to doubt some of my reasoning at the time.

One thing is for sure, whatever you believe the system to be, it ISNT the way you think or expect! maybe in industry, as in big industry. But small company/ man in the street situation, it is without a doubt a complete shambles.

One thing I can clear up, you can get a EPP license. DONT rush out to get one though, I will post details Monday then decide. But TBH i am utterly gobsmacked by the last visit, my current situation concerns me, like the other member I am 100% sure I am in the right. Like the other member I am being told I am not.

You decide when I give details.

DavidJR - 30-1-2018 at 16:09

Cryptic....

NEMO-Chemistry - 30-1-2018 at 17:28

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Cryptic....


Yes I wanted to avoid cryptic!! I had hoped to clear it up today, I am waiting for an answer to a question I have asked.

There is no point me giving information that is wrong. But the more I go down this road, the more i feel sorry for bloggers. I dont dispute he was warned, but all this talk of experts and all the rest of it...

I can tell you for sure, the 'expert' i have finally met, would be considered a fucking noob on here with zero sense!

And being able to quote wikipedia from a printed sheet of paper, in my book dont you make you a fucking expert at jack shit.

So in some ways I can see how someone like bloggers who knew his stuff, got caught by someone that didnt.

I dont know his side, but in my own case what they are warning me about is wrong, however as it stands, even though I am a Ltd company, even though I have the correct paperwork and set up, I do have flaw.

If I now do what they are asking, I would be doing something I feel is wrong for my situation. If I dont do it then I am in breach of a little bitch of small print.

I will explain as soon as I here back from the council.

JUST TO BE CLEAR

I have done what they have asked, but if I can, i am going to go back to my way! its safer and in my situation more sensible.

[Edited on 31-1-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]

NEMO-Chemistry - 31-1-2018 at 06:32

Ok for legal reasons and reasons of sense, I wont give a couple of details. None of the details matter, they are more to do with identity, and the fact that I was asked from day one to keep quite what my company does on paper.

Look at it as if I was an animal testing place for cosmetics, I am not, but the reasons are similar, the police dont want it well known what goes on at my address, this dosnt affect most people, it affects me for reasons of location and response times.

There is little point making myself a target.

So the update.

First keep in mind Scotland got rid of area police forces, they lumped into one huge police force called police Scotland. So unlike England which has different police areas, we have a single area. Which means when it comes to real experts we dont have ANY.

If they need an expert they call the fire people or the bomb squad, or do they do what they have done to me, they look on a list of chems I gave them, the list was my intended stock list.

Actually two chems on it made me nervous to give the information, turns out the chemical that has caused me some trouble, is probably the least harmful!!

I thought the guy who wasnt in uniform was from CID, I am now 90% sure he isnt from the police as such, I am pretty sure he is from the police anti terror group.

Which in Scotland would mean he works for people who hunt terrorists.

Everything they have made hand notes of is now typed up, they admitted they cant reach my website normally on the police computer system, then they proceeded to tell me exactly what was on my website!

The guy with the printouts was in there words ' our chemical expert', bullshit, the guy is trained to recognize 3-4 chemical names, one of which is on my list.

Once my new lab is completed (company lab), it will be in a building outside of my house, its a real building and not a shed. One the things I have agreed too and want anyway, is a beefy alarm system. Its also the only place I can get a couple of the chem cabinets in.

It also needs a reinforced door as the door is wooden, my jouse door in reinforced double glazed, safety glass PVC, apparently the hardest doors to break into!! Apparently the police hate PVC doors, they have some give in them, which makes them hard to smash open on a raid.

So given this, I decided to put a small chem cupboard inside my house, short term. I live in a very large house, one part of it is kind of like a granny annex, this is the home lab I use. It does have access from inside the main house, it also has access from outside.

It is on the main house alarm system, it has modern tough doors. Its easy to isolate from the rest of the house, so logic says............

Until the lab is done, the safest place to store some expensive equipment and some chems the police want safe, would be in this area. Technically its classed as a dwelling, although according to the council I could put in a change of use, so i could if I was allowed, have it as my company place of work, but mum says feck that.

They have picked up on a chemical on my list, no not acetic anhydride, no not nitric acid. But Hydrogen peroxide! 32%.

Which according to the expert is a major risk, he read wiki to me (seriously), he told me if I didnt move it to a safe and secure location i would be in breach of the rules. As a business I can own it, but while its in my house, then it isnt covered by business rules!!

They see it as belonging to me personally as its in my home, forget the fact the business brought it, the point to them is its kept at my house and not the company office!
I personally need a EPP if I want to have it in the house. Then he pointed out I have 5 ltrs of acetone, which he considers excessive for a home to have. The company paid for it, it is on the company books, but for obvious reasons I am storing some chemicals in what I see as the safest place until the Lab is done.

What has annoyed me is I have an official warning against me personally for this. They agree I got it legally, they agree my company can own it, but the fact is, if its in my house and not my business premise then I now own it and I need a EPP to own it!

No amount of reasoning was getting me anywhere, so its back inside an unlocked building. Along with some other chemicals I have had to move. I cant.wont list them, but I know some on the list would raise eyebrows here.

None of them concerned the expert except those two..... Now I can start to see how Blogfast got in trouble. I buy 32% Hydrogen peroxide because I can make a lot of lower concentrations with it, from a shipping cost perspective, its the cheapest way to buy it.

The other problem I have is the declaration of use form I used to buy it. On the form I didnt list 2 things i have used it for, when I got it I didnt know I would use it for that!! I didnt know I would need to oxidize the shit out of a blocked frit funnel.

So I am in breach of use. Also, and this is where it gets unfair, I have a small breach of REACH regulation. On my labels for one acid, I have the symbols in the wrong order, your supposed to put the most dangerous symbol first, I got it mixed up.

technically this is a REACH issue and not a criminal one, technically it has jack shit to do with the police, but shirt and tie man in a suite, has informed me that in reality, the guy has a shirt and tie on, he decides what is law and what is regulation. The law cited for this abuse is the anti terrors laws.


If you read them properly, you discover most your normal rights no longer exist. They simply have to suspect your motives, or think something, and thats enough for the normal law to go out the window.

This explains why at one point, bloggers was positive he was pretty much in the clear, he assumed they would use the laws of the land, but it turns out that chemistry and terror and closely related. So its real easy to turn a industrial dispute over regulations, into a breach of legal issues.

In other words, it is now completely legal for them to move any goal post anywhere anytime , and for any purpose. Then move them back again if needed.

So where do I go from here?................

I am applying for change of use, but still building my outside lab, my mum isnt happy about this. it means we loose a living area and will have to pay business rates on it for a while. But a couple of chemicals I have for a good reason, I am not leaving in a easy to get into building.

I cant do the security yet, I dont have the money to finish the plumbing side, let alone start replacing doors.

But there is option 3, option three I cant discuss on the forum, it isnt illegal, but I cant/dont want to link it with me openly. I have asked one member to help me, there is zero wrong with what I am doing, but if i mention it, then by default its really easy to then pinpoint exactly where I am (yeah I know thats ironic!!).

Next visit I am sure is going to be formal, I am also sure it will end up in interview at the police station. But I am sure they are aware they cant do anything yet. It would solely be a scare tactic, someone a member gave me details of, has warned my solicitor that its likely I will get an invite to visit the police station.

But I have been briefed on my rights to the letter, for the matter they use to invite me down (they cant arrest me unless i decline the offer), they cant turn up at a unreasonable time.
They make a single mistake and I will be on it. I started out wanting to work with them, i wanted to be open. I thought it would show i had nothing to hide.

But two chemicals make them irrational, the main issue is the definition of expert. We think chemistry expert, they think and use terrorist expert. Big difference between them.

Sulaiman - 31-1-2018 at 07:05

Thank you for going through all this trouble and updating us,
hopefully we Brits will all learn how to deal with the authorities.

Of all the chemicals that I own,
the one that concerned me the most was my 35% H2O2 (also for postal cost savings)
(especially since I also have over a litre of acetone)
which, with a heavy heart, I diluted to c10% (definitely less than the 12% EPP limit)
(how difficult is it to concentrate dilute H2O2 by evaporation ... not)

Anyway, fight the good fight and keep us updated please.


P.S. in your dealings with the authorities, did you get any impression that they may have researched the internet (esp. SM) as a background check ?

[Edited on 31-1-2018 by Sulaiman]

NEMO-Chemistry - 31-1-2018 at 15:42

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
Thank you for going through all this trouble and updating us,
hopefully we Brits will all learn how to deal with the authorities.

Of all the chemicals that I own,
the one that concerned me the most was my 35% H2O2 (also for postal cost savings)
(especially since I also have over a litre of acetone)
which, with a heavy heart, I diluted to c10% (definitely less than the 12% EPP limit)
(how difficult is it to concentrate dilute H2O2 by evaporation ... not)

Anyway, fight the good fight and keep us updated please.


P.S. in your dealings with the authorities, did you get any impression that they may have researched the internet (esp. SM) as a background check ?

[Edited on 31-1-2018 by Sulaiman]


Regarding SM and internet searches. You are aware all ISP's etc have to keep your meta data arnt you? Well read that law again, it got changed just before dave C left as prime minister, it was even made into a you tube hit!

Now its not just simple meta data, its every email, every page, every phone call, its all recorded. The problem they got is the court of human rights says they cant use it against you.

This is why Brexit appeals to many tory mp's, when we leave the EU they are keen to get rid of the CHJ.

So while they cant use the actual tape of the call they can use the fact you made the call, as for SM read bloggers news items.

In it is an interesting bit where the judge quotes the fact bloggers is credited as helping with a book called experiment you can do at home but probably shouldnt, this was used against him, it showed he knew some legal thing were not really fit for a home setting.

Also they wanted to know how much copper nitrate I had made, because making copper nitrate isnt on my declaration. I use 1 chem forum, i have only ever used 1 chem forum. I have mentioned making copper nitrate in 1 place and 1 place only........

Here on SM.

Trust me if they think you might be of interest then everything you have ever done online will be found and looked at, its super easy for them to do.

Every chem you have purchased in last 24 months would have been reported if the seller has any brains. It takes roughly 2.7ms to get that info from the central database.

Are they watching you? Most people No, not unless you catch the attention, But you own two of the most feared and watched chemicals out there.

Like I said I have some thing that are legal for me to have, They didnt raise an eyebrow because the eyebrow owner didnt have a clue what they are, but the eyebrow owner knows two chemicals very well. Acetone and Hydrogen peroxide, every policeman in the UK will react if they find bottles with that on.

Mr expert asked me how safe it was to pick them up!! Stop thinking these experts are chem experts or scientists because they are not, they are terrorist experts, they know the explosive of choice is acetone peroxide.

They know its a really dangerous explosive, they know it goes off without warning, they know its made from acetone and hydrogen peroxide. BUT they know jack shit more than that!!

I swear to you the impression I got and the look i saw on the faces, they were scared of the acetone bottle, they didnt have a clue its nail varnish remover.

I was in control at the start, I thought I could steer this my way at my speed. I was wrong, I am glad I have done it, but i was seriously wrong in my assumptions.

I honestly thought they would turn up, take a look and say, we will need to get a chemist come look at this. No instead they called there expert.

Think history teacher taking two day course is then qualified to teach science. That is the problem we have today with home chemistry.

I will carry on (no choice now anyway), and by the time I am fucking finished, at least one expert will have made some acetone peroxide and seen it go off.

he will also use and see nail varnish removed from HIS nail, he will see and do the elephant toothpaste experiment! If it kills me i will make sure before this is over, at least one expert will do this.#

Its the only thing I can think of doing to try and address this absurd reaction they have to the wrong chemicals. Incidentally he picked up a number of bottles of solvents with bare hands, no fear no nothing.

Didnt flinch too much when I said some of them give you cancer.

As a side note his wife apparently makes soap, I showed him soda glass test tube put in a coffee mug of very very hot hydroxide.

I then did the same with a test tube and very hot peroxide, I think he expected the peroxide to explode (so did I actually by the time he had finished lol).

I will educate them, I bet his wife dont make too much soap from now on, he looked really shocked.

Magpie - 31-1-2018 at 19:38

I really feel badly that you folks are being so ill-treated in the UK and possibly other EU countries. The terrorist use of TATP must have the police highly intimidated. We have nothing like that in the US. Ace sells acetone by the gallon and the clerks don't flinch when selling it. 33% H2O2 is available freely at my local health food store and grow shop. There again, no flinching or raised eyebrows. In regard to the incompetence of the so-called "experts" I don't understand why your police don't hire a real chemist for home visits. They clearly just want to stop home chemistry, as it makes them nervous. Many fear whatever they don't understand. Ace did have a log for customers to sign a few years back when buying acetone and other solvents. I think our local police instituted this. But it didn't last long. My friend, who buys NaOH pellets at Ace for his swimming pool was asked to sign the log. He said "I'm not going to do that" and walked out and went next door to buy it.

As a home chemist I'm glad that the pseudoephedrine cold medicines purchases are computer logged to prevent the smurfs from buying large amounts of pseudo. Also, it seems the terrorists' choice of weapon is now just mowing people down with a truck instead of bombing. This should take the pressure off anybody that happens to have a quart of nail polish remover laying around, like those little Vietnamese ladies that run the nail salons.

[Edited on 1-2-2018 by Magpie]

NEMO-Chemistry - 4-2-2018 at 03:01

Chemists cost money, besides the people in power think you stop terrorism with people who know about terrorists. The truth is, anyone can do terror, the way to stop it is to look at the big picture, no terrorist, just like no drug factory, has a cupboard full of copper sulphate and sodium carbonate etc etc.

They need to look at the bigger picture, chlorates apparently were a weed killer in the UK back in the 80's. EVERYBODY i am told, knew if you mixed it with sugar you could make a bang, no one cared. This is odd when you look at the problem the UK had with terrorists back then (IRA).

The difference is the world trade towers was the shocking thing every seen. Upto that point a load of soldiers and horses maimed and killed on a parade was the biggest attack. Terrorist were not in the habit of killing themselves.

What changed was the nature of terror, old school terror you stop by catching the terrorist, todays terrorists does it knowing he isnt coming back. That frightens people, because it means you no longer have to check and secure a place. Now you have to check every person, and not just something left unattended.

Its no coincidence the IRA hang up its guns, once the towers came down, even the IRA knew terror had changed, they were aware they couldnt compete with the knew style.

I was doing a black powder thing in energetics. The problem is I am allowed 10g of it by law. But if I mix that 10g with 200g graphite, how much black powder do I own?

They aint gonna separate it out trust me. All I currently have thats bad news is Nitric acid and acetone (as seen by the police perspective), Nitric acid dosnt bother them much. Acetone really bothers them.

Chlorates get you the bomb squad, this is because one the vids they watch shows some going off. Shame they dont watch a blue peter video from 1980 where the gardener puts it on the drive way to get rid of the grass.

Glad I found this today!

Thiocyanate - 4-2-2018 at 12:27

Guys/Girls/whoever,

I have read most of this thread and can see that some of you have got yourselves in a bit of a pickle with all of this both in your understanding and in some cases your practical way of dealing with the dilemma.
About me: I am a currently practicing home chemist and current EPP License holder and have numerous chemicals.
I also use some chemicals for work purposes and have separate work storage for these.
I have had an impromptu visit from the authorities to check me out because of my purchases, also because I am a firearm certificate holder and would be of particular interest for obvious reasons. Although harrowing the net effect was positive for me. The visit was before the EPP came into effect and when the requirement came in, I went through the application process.
I will tell you about that another time.
To date I have had no trouble at all and have found the Authorities good to deal with.
I can see much confusion, wrong conclusions, fear in this and other threads so I decided to post here to try and offer some Help.

I am also a forum admin at the UK Pyrotechnics Society and we have dealt with all of this a fair bit!

Firstly, if you are in possesion of any of the substances listed in the latest revisions of the poisons and explosive precursor regulations and do not have a license then of course you are in breach of the law. Thats the bit we all know right?

Did you also know that if you inadvertently came into possession of the alleged controlled substance there is provision for you to dispose of those substances in a reasonable time frame. if you cannot identify these substances then the option may be that you could take them to your local recycling centre for disposal. They have a cabinet for the odd thing like this. Check by dropping in and asking the staff. I know mercury could not be passed on in this way but in days gone by I have disposed of stuff this way.
You think they are old photographic chemicals right? (yes you do!)

Paint pigments........If your alleged controlled substance is an art material or used as an old pigment it seems to me that in this context the substance is exempt. I did pour through the statute and came across this some time ago. I will try to find chapter and verse again at some point

These are just a few bits and pieces I have found over time and may help those of you seeking to push the eject button on chemistry.

For those of us that want to continue there are plenty of options if you do it intelligently and without panic or paranoia.
I did notice that one of you started a company to try and circumnavigate the general public restrictions, not the best move really, it may flag you up more initially and subject you to lots of commercial regs.

Over all you need to start a clean sheet. Apply for the license and do not be put off. The Home Office are actually quite helpful if you start off in the right way and with a good attitude.
As has already been said, It is probably not the wisest move to call the authorities and tell them you are in possession of a load of stuff you should not have. If you did this with a firearm or shotgun certificate you would be in very deep water.
That said, I know someone who let their EPP license expire and then tried to renew it a month or two later. Not only that, they asked for a controversial substance to be added on.
They had to have a visit from counter terrorist employees but that went fine and hey presto, they have everything back in order with no trouble! So you see it is not all bad.

Most importantly we all need to stand together in the U.K. and walk forward, Don't Give up. There are enough of us and we need more!! None of this is for the faint hearted but it is absolutely possible.

One other thing, give the political stuff a bit less focus as it is distracting and often incorrect. Also it does not give a good impression.

Second edit: **I can tell you from personal experience that some personnel from various agencies to date are still not clear on the correct interpretation of the law and how you deal with them on the day is quite important. This whole area is still a tricky stretch of water and that is even more reason to get it right.

I have browsed science madness for years and in all honesty I think it needs to accommodate recent events and moderate accordingly, as much as that goes against freedom it would be immensely helpful for our future. Many other dedicated pyrotechnic forums keep a very close eye on what is discussed and for good reason. I will elaborate as far as I can in time but it is a matter of common sense really.**

I will stop there for now but if you have any questions please ask me via the forum or P.M. or join the UK pyrotechnics society forum and have a look at some of the stuff on there.
My aim here is to help folk get straight, compliant and happily experimenting without fear or paranoia like I do now.

Regards to all.


[Edited on 4-2-2018 by Thiocyanate]

[Edited on 4-2-2018 by Thiocyanate]

DavidJR - 4-2-2018 at 22:50

I find it really odd that they seem so hung up about acetone...

NEMO-Chemistry - 5-2-2018 at 05:37

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
I find it really odd that they seem so hung up about acetone...


I wont be giving any details on the how etc, but I have looked into the above carefully. It appears alot depends where you live, its kind of speculation (but with good evidence) that the more south you are, the easier it is to get an EPP.

There could be many reasons, one of which i suspect includes larger numbers of informed people inspecting.

I think there are wider issues also, which again sounds cryptic, but it is starting to get harder to give information. The more people I talk to, the more information I get.

However for good reason, many of these people do not want me to give out the information. Which makes it bloody hard!

I have now spoken with 6 people who are licensed, all six dont want to come forward (i understand this). Each however has something in common, while also some differences.

I thank all those who have come forward, its been very helpful. I think the hobby needs to change, I also think those further away from the capital are having a harder time.

The big thing that has come out however is the difference between England and Scotland. Both use the same anti terror frame work, both are supposed to use the same EPP framework.

But the massive difference is the actual system of law, Scotland does not have the same legal system, this is hard to grasp. Having come from England I used to think it would be 'more or less' the same.

I will give you a really good example.

In England you have the CPS, they decide what goes to court etc. in Scotland we have the procurator fiscal, on paper both jobs are pretty much the same. In reality they are very very different.

Legal power in Scotland seems to be extremely decentralized at a local level. In England the lower court is the magistrates court, normally you have around 3 of them sit and hear a case, they then go and chat behind the scenes and deliver the verdict.

Also in England when your up in court, you stand and can defend yourself, you may speak with the magistrates and give evidence.

This is way different to Scotland, I will come back and detail the system here in a day or so. But here think more along the lines of a small American court where the judge is god.

That is exactly what the sheriff and his court is like in Scotland, its a system I have seen alot of, mainly for school and mainly because its almost medieval and fascinating to see in action.

The point is, on a number of occasions i have been told, you should just do X or Y, and things like " They cant do that by law".

I think some have too much faith in the law, I honestly think people believe they are playing on a level field. Maybe in some places you are, I have had several exchanges where I completely believe the person.

But there experience is not the norm, compared with some others. One really sticks out at me, the big difference was the outcome. I relayed the event to the person who I spoke too. I wont give ANY details, but yes they are a member.

We have spoken by phone, I cant give zero details of who or exactly what was discussed, but they were honestly shocked when I spoke of another situation I have knowledge of.

It was completely different from there experience, but it does show it dosnt always work how you think.

Now I will detail one incident I have knowledge of, first I need to think this through carefully, I am acutely aware people are sharing real experiences and deeply personal information.

It can be difficult to give enough information, without giving so much, that it becomes easy to google and identify that person. So be aware I need some time with this.

To those home chemists who have not had a visit yet, if you got things you need a license for, then go get one. Yes that is a change of advice, actually unless you really need the chemical get rid of it.

Those who have come forward from here, and live in the UK, all agree on one thing.

Take shooting in the UK as a hobby, many have a firearms license, they have special gun safes and strict procedures are gone through. While on the one hand they are technically Amateur gun owners, they are not amateurs.

They take the hobby extremely seriously and comply with every detail, those that dont have much to loose. I think its time we looked at our hobby, the days of Amateur chemistry by Amateurs is long over.

I dont care what law you THINK applies or not, dont rely on the written law to save your arse, this is exactly what got Bloggers. He was positive the law was on his side, and actually in many ways the letter of the law is on his side.

I know one here thinks the likes of REACH is business only, and according to law this is true, but that is amateur thinking. I would start to treat your hobby in a much more professional manner.

No there is no law that says you have to keep 2.5kg below shoulder height, if your an amateur, but do it anyway. Act like professionals, it cost little if anything to replicate how industry behaves, print labels, label everything.

Sodium Carbonate is a white powder, a pot with black pen stating the container of white powder, is sodium Carbonate, does not give someone who has never seen that tub before confidence.

THINK about it, you know its Carbonate, to every other person (especially those actively seeking terrorist), it's a unknown white powder. Sure you wrote carbonate in pen on it, but honestly what would you trust more? a lab with every container labeled with proper labels, or a lab with sauce bottles and marker pens?

This is what I mean by amateur, like it or not, how we present ourselves and our labs, really counts to those who dont know us but have power over us.

And just to state a little unknown fact, in the UK the law is what they tell you it is. What bothers me alot about bloggers is the life ban on chemistry, does anyone else see this as a clear sign that home chemistry is no longer wanted?

Does it then not fall to each of us to be like gun owners in the UK, the price of our hobby is professionalism. Asked yourself an honest question, if two gardens down you heard a gunshot, how would you react? What would you think? (this is a UK thing or EU thing).

Well to those who dont do chemistry, loud bangs and flashes have the same type of reaction.

I will leave it there for now. But if anyone from the EU, has similar views, then please get in touch. A number of people in a similar situation, would like to try and shape the way things go.

I will be upfront however, if your a closet chemist with stuff you shouldnt have, you are becoming a real threat to the hobby.

Link to a recent case.

Thiocyanate - 5-2-2018 at 12:55

I have been doing a bit of homework since posting yesterday and with the current theme and recent stuff this seems to be a prime example of what happens when you Ignore U.K. law.

I do not know all of the facts but the following link is to the Gov.uk
site and going on my own experience it seems he was given chance after chance. Clearly this man did not help himself.
I have bought from him some years ago and was quite surprised to see he had got himself in such trouble.

I remember looking this up last year and recall he had asked folk on here not to talk about the case as it was ongoing.

Going through the references in this thread got me thinking.

To date, everyone I know who has legitimately applied for an EPP and kept to the rules. has never got any hassle and any visits have been positive, even if a bit troubling at the time.
It also seems that any prosecutions have been under aggravated circumstances.

Anyway here is the link.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/back-garden-chemist-jaile...

NEMO-Chemistry - 5-2-2018 at 19:05

Events happen quickly, not sure if anyone knows of the case going on at the moment? Hopefully someone else will come forward with details.

I havnt been on here long enough to know if the person is/was a member, but there is a case going on in England, its at the P's & D's Stage. I know the person from a non chemistry forum, actually this kind of makes it hard for me, they are not what we would call a chemist, yes they dabbled but the main hobby was actually electronics.

This is the second case in a month, going on the website that it is supposed to throw up cases, dosnt give any detail of either, so the site is slow to record stuff, or dosnt show until conviction?

The other case I dont know much about, its not very exciting so i cant find much on the net,from the little I do know, I think its hydrogen peroxide or nitromethane that was involved. Case thrown out (cps withdrawn) because of an evidence procedure.

No details as such, some he said/ she said but wont bother posting that. Seems someone made so me mistakes and the case was withdrawn, BUT 1 ltr of one or both chemicals involved. No indication of how they got a visit. This is third hand info at best, i will do my best and see what I can find.

Again I thank those who have written letters (scary how you got my address lol) or called me up. I also have people from two other hobbies that use chemicals, and a number of those have come forward with info.

Whats really odd is the most recent FOI request. It shows 3 in Scotland and 4 in England, I know the English number is definitely off. I know two people who think going the business route was a bad idea for me, at the time it was the advice I was given.

Ironically if you apply for a EPP make sure you dont have to apply for change of use to a room in your house, I am having trouble getting good info on this, in Scotland you are in breach of the legal system if you do chemistry in a room, and then dont declare the room as a lab.

It is thread on its own trust me. If people want I will dig up all the info I have, England is slightly different, same rules but so far they dont seem as enforced, maybe the councils are too stretched to bother. I dont really know. I am not far from the England border, so anyone in that area.....get in touch.

What you tell me stays with me, I may use some the info but I wont disclose identities or who has what etc. As for me I have been asked by the police not to disclose what I do, or what chemicals I hold. I see no reason why they would do this.

More to the point I can find no legal reason except maybe some small print. But I have been given no clear reason, so I will soon disclose my company name, what it does and what it has. I suspect that is going to end my career in business, but TBH once all this is finished I am hanging up my test tubes.

I wont be owning any the chemicals on the list, Half the ones I own now will be gone.

That is how it stands today, please be aware all of this is fluid. Its actually been fairly harrowing at times, one other snipit I have.

The expert thing has been confirmed in England and here, these people are counter terrorism experts not chemists!! Some have been police based (i suspect those English forces in larger places that have dedicated officers) and other experts have not been Police, those ones are really scary. Polite and all but hearing someone else describe the look etc on the phone, makes me feel better :D.

If anyone gets a visit and one of them turn up, please post here. I can guess the letter not the number.

NEMO-Chemistry - 5-2-2018 at 19:09

Quote: Originally posted by Thiocyanate  
I have been doing a bit of homework since posting yesterday and with the current theme and recent stuff this seems to be a prime example of what happens when you Ignore U.K. law.

I do not know all of the facts but the following link is to the Gov.uk
site and going on my own experience it seems he was given chance after chance. Clearly this man did not help himself.
I have bought from him some years ago and was quite surprised to see he had got himself in such trouble.

I remember looking this up last year and recall he had asked folk on here not to talk about the case as it was ongoing.

Going through the references in this thread got me thinking.

To date, everyone I know who has legitimately applied for an EPP and kept to the rules. has never got any hassle and any visits have been positive, even if a bit troubling at the time.
It also seems that any prosecutions have been under aggravated circumstances.

Anyway here is the link.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/back-garden-chemist-jaile...


On paper that case is black and white, in reality you need to read the court transcript. The press leave out small but relevant details, Also note in one the threads on here, the guy himself states they foofed up.

If the legal system wasnt biased the cas should have been dropped, the procedure for entry and one or two other rights were trampled over, I think that is what was alluded too in a couple of his posts, in a fair world the case shouldnt have made court.

And that is the bit that should worry you, we dont have many rights, would be nice if those we do have were respected.

Magpie - 5-2-2018 at 19:53

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

This is way different to Scotland, I will come back and detail the system here in a day or so. But here think more along the lines of a small American court where the judge is god.


I would love to be in "a small American court where the judge is god." I would hire the best lawyer around and gleefully watch him disembowel the prosecutor and the judge in an appelate court.

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

That is exactly what the sheriff and his court is like in Scotland, its a system I have seen alot of, mainly for school and mainly because its almost medieval and fascinating to see in action.


Sounds like the Spanish Inquisition of medieval times. As stated above in an Amercan court they would be reamed a new asshole.
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

I dont care what law you THINK applies or not, dont rely on the written law to save your arse, this is exactly what got Bloggers. He was positive the law was on his side, and actually in many ways the letter of the law is on his side.


Laws are put in writing so that they are clear to everyone. If you don't have a society of laws then heaven help you.

England's system of courts, based on the Roman system, was the foundation of Western Civilization. The Magna Carta (1215) said that even the King had to obey the law.

[Edited on 6-2-2018 by Magpie]

NEMO-Chemistry - 6-2-2018 at 01:59

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

This is way different to Scotland, I will come back and detail the system here in a day or so. But here think more along the lines of a small American court where the judge is god.


I would love to be in "a small American court where the judge is god." I would hire the best lawyer around and gleefully watch him disembowel the prosecutor and the judge in an appelate court.

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

That is exactly what the sheriff and his court is like in Scotland, its a system I have seen alot of, mainly for school and mainly because its almost medieval and fascinating to see in action.


Sounds like the Spanish Inquisition of medieval times. As stated above in an Amercan court they would be reamed a new asshole.
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

I dont care what law you THINK applies or not, dont rely on the written law to save your arse, this is exactly what got Bloggers. He was positive the law was on his side, and actually in many ways the letter of the law is on his side.


Laws are put in writing so that they are clear to everyone. If you don't have a society of laws then heaven help you.

England's system of courts, based on the Roman system, was the foundation of Western Civilization. The Magna Carta (1215) said that even the King had to obey the law.

[Edited on 6-2-2018 by Magpie]


Magpie your are correct in every respect, my comment on the American legal system and the courts, was directed at UK people. Our perception of your legal system is based mainly on films and TV.

We in the UK are well aware this is not an accurate view of your system, however by using the term the way I did, I was pretty sure 99% of people here would know what I was getting at.

Sorry for the confusion on that point. I wont bother to clarify too much, but here we see the American system portrayed as a guy who is God in that room.

The rest of your comments used to be true, Magna Carter people still think is the base of our legal system. The truth is only 2 sections of the Magna Carter still exist in any form in the UK!

Also I honestly think people have slept for the last 4 years, is NO ONE aware of exactly what the adjustments to the anti terror laws means? Seriously I am asking if people understand why the Lib Dems got in a flap about the amendments that were dropped?

As soon as the coalition ended those were put back into a back door Bill with a single HOL reading.

Its a big read, but go read the Bill on the anti laws, not the GOV website one as it states that isnt the full copy. But go look on the house of parliament site and follow links from there.

Ok this is totally made up, but the actual situation if it arose is completely legal.

I am walking down the street with acetone and Hydrogen peroxide (32%) in a bag. I am of a certain religeon and nationality.

I am stopped and searched, on me they find my phone. on that phone in my browser history is a chem channel, i havnt watched a video on how to make TATP but the channel has it on.

I am whisked off and held under suspicion of X (X is a huge list, just pick one from it) against the risk of terrorism laws.

Mgna Carter and my rights under the court of human rights goes out the window, I can be held under suspicion for 21 days in a police cell, no phone calls to anyone, no one has to be informed, i am not allowed legal advice.

Its is perfectly legal.

So what stops it being used much?
Well at the moment the court of human rights, while it wouldnt stop it happening, if I wasnt charged after being held it would get real messy in the COHR.

Also every 72 hours they have to apply to a magistrates court for continuance, at the moment they would need good reason to hold me or the magistrates would cancel it.

Whats really funny is all the talk on human rights, we diss countries for locking people up for silly things etc. No One says a word about a country that holds people prisoner who have never been inside a court and holds them for 15 years or whatever it is, no trial no nothing.

But thats ok because someone has told us these people are bad people, and despite knowing nothing other than this, we except it as the truth.

Justice is something we had, but couldnt be arsed to keep because it always happens to other people and besides....Ultimately we all believe the right thing will be done in the end.

Wake the fuck up.

Edit

Goes without saying Magpie, only the bit about why i used your court system as an example, applies directly to you.

The rest of the rant is shear frustration at people not understanding what has happened in the last 4 years. It really angers me that people seem to not have noticed what laws have been passed and the effect this now has.

Dont take my word for it, if you still think they only keep meta data go read the Theresa may amendment (when she was home secretary ) and DC was pm. READ the Bill that was amended not the original version.

So how come I know? simples, I had a English hating Human studies teacher, who spent an entire year ranting about the English legal system and how he didnt want it in Scotland.

Thing is he backed up every word with legal documents....

Also I am ranting for another reason, I will explain in a day or so. But I now have my local council on my back over change of use blah blah blah...

Safe to say all Nitric acid at the moment has been diluted ;).

[Edited on 6-2-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]

Thiocyanate - 6-2-2018 at 12:33

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
Quote: Originally posted by Thiocyanate  
I have been doing a bit of homework since posting yesterday and with the current theme and recent stuff this seems to be a prime example of what happens when you Ignore U.K. law.

I do not know all of the facts but the following link is to the Gov.uk
site and going on my own experience it seems he was given chance after chance. Clearly this man did not help himself.
I have bought from him some years ago and was quite surprised to see he had got himself in such trouble.

I remember looking this up last year and recall he had asked folk on here not to talk about the case as it was ongoing.

Going through the references in this thread got me thinking.

To date, everyone I know who has legitimately applied for an EPP and kept to the rules. has never got any hassle and any visits have been positive, even if a bit troubling at the time.
It also seems that any prosecutions have been under aggravated circumstances.

Anyway here is the link.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/back-garden-chemist-jaile...


On paper that case is black and white, in reality you need to read the court transcript. The press leave out small but relevant details, Also note in one the threads on here, the guy himself states they foofed up.

If the legal system wasnt biased the cas should have been dropped, the procedure for entry and one or two other rights were trampled over, I think that is what was alluded too in a couple of his posts, in a fair world the case shouldnt have made court.

And that is the bit that should worry you, we dont have many rights, would be nice if those we do have were respected.


While it may be true that some of his rights or certain procedures were not upheld correctly it is indefensible to deal with the authorities the way he did and in doing so he destroyed his own life and hit a major blow to amateurs. Someone of such prominence taking a hit like that is unreal.
I was visited before EPP came in and did not have the luxury of reminder after reminder to get my house in order.

I have been told by a significant number of other amateurs that their Ltd company or sole trader status covers them for everything......It does not, absolutely not.
I have separate storage for work chemicals and that does double up as personal storage and personal usage.
If there is a security issue at home I can default to the work storage. This is stated in black and white on my license.
I have been told that for my work stock of chemicals I do not need a license but if any of them come home then I do, which means they can't come home, period. To add to this the general condition is that I may have to provide invoice evidence that any chemicals I do use for work e.g. the occasional use of Nitric acid for metal treatment or oxalic acid for timber treatment. So far this has not happened but if asked I can provide an invoice.

I am very open with the Home Office and make sure I run a tight ship, I have to. If I think any planned course of action could flag up I let them know.
My chemicals are stored according to the instructions and conditions issued with my License. I also audit periodically and am always revising and planning new improvements to security and safety. I have a new set up planned but need to accumulate the materials first. It all costs money but with scrounging and finding it will be done.

To date I have had no trouble (I know that could change) and getting variations on my license for more goodies has been no trouble for me or anyone else I know. I always state why I want said stuff and demonstrate that I understand any specific risks that may apply to a given substance I've asked for.

The number of licenses issued is way more than any of you think and the official figures you have are wrong.
I know of two others personally within a fifteen mile radius to me and many more outside of that.
At a guess there are probably in the order of between 100 and 200 at the very least in England alone. (my guess)

You say that the police don't want you to mention what chemicals you have or what you do at home.......Good advice if you ask me.
Security is a main concern for them and for good reason. If you were targeted (unlikely) it would probably be an organised information led thing. I have only heard of an unfortunate youtube user who displayed their wonderful lab only to have it stolen.
He had some dangerous stuff as do most of us.
Personally I can't see an individual being targeted for a couple of hundred grams of an oxidising agent but there it is.

Over the last 18 months I have had many conversations with people, visited many and I can tell you if you are sensible, respectful and careful then you are highly unlikely to get any undue grief.
Every case of people getting serious flak I have heard of to date always, always has aggravating factors. Attitude is one, thinking it does not apply to you another. One case I know pre EPP of was down to a malicious call made by an ex partner, this led to a public arrest of the individual at gunpoint. Yes, gunpoint! The case was eventually dropped but not for some time and it put the individual through hell. Choose your company wisely and don't mess with the authorities!

Try to think of your responsibilities before presumed rights and you are making a good start.

So to get to a more positive place in this conversation:
Q: What is life like for me now I have to have a bit of paper and do a few simple things to remain doing demonstrative (important word, note it) chemistry?

A: Great.

Q: Why?

A: Because it has inadvertently led to me being able to get more chemicals easily and when people ask what I do I can wave my license in the air with joy and say no I am not a meth cook or a terrorist!!!
O.k. I don't actually wave it in the air or say that but in conversation I now have confidence and credibility with my neighbours and anyone else who may ask me or be tempted to act with malice.

Q: But don't you have to drive hundreds of miles to pick up your chemicals in person?

A: Yes I do and it is great, I have met loads of great new contacts and am in fact better equipped than ever. Seen some cool set ups too. Also If I cant buy it I can acquire it by synthesis as long as i am not selling it or going over my allowed amounts or concentration thresholds.

Q: So you are happy with the situation then?

A: not entirely really but before I was an unknown quantity, never sure if the door might fly off the hinges at 4.00 am and have to end up looking down the barrel of an MP5.
Now I am a known quantity so when the door does fly off the hinges at 4.00 am I can show the nice people my license while looking down the barrel of an MP5 and offer them a nice cup of tea instead.

Sorry, I couldn't resist that but you get the picture yes?

NEMO-Chemistry - 6-2-2018 at 18:44

So far I see nothing bit agreement. The one point I want to make about a EPP, is exactly the point you made about companies.

You cant just get an EPP for no reason, you cant say......Look I like playing with chemicals, i want a uber chem set.

I am aware of some EPP being granted, its somewhere further up the thread. I am also aware that in each case they had a good reason to own or buy.

So in that way its exactly like a company, in this instance you have SIC codes, if your a company your SIC must make sense to own the chemicals.

Lets say I am a dress maker, none of my SIC codes would allow me as a business to own or buy licensed goods, so yes I totally agree with your LTD company point.

I Dont see any difference between our views, I do think there is regional differences. Having also spoken with a few, its a bit of a lottery. Maybe your point about how you present has alot more going for it than people think.

The purpose of this thread was to give a blow by blow account of the process, I wanted to share what my experience was. So far its been very mixed, but for my area i would say its on a par to what I would expect.

I have spoken with people from different areas, if anyone has a license and is in say Bradford area, please drop me a U2U.

I have spoken to alot of different areas, I got to say though that so far none have been in Manchester,Liverpool or Bradford, I am sure they exist. But I would like to know the type of experience it has been.

Thiocyanate - 9-2-2018 at 09:30

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
So far I see nothing bit agreement. The one point I want to make about a EPP, is exactly the point you made about companies.

You cant just get an EPP for no reason, you cant say......Look I like playing with chemicals, i want a uber chem set.

I am aware of some EPP being granted, its somewhere further up the thread. I am also aware that in each case they had a good reason to own or buy.

So in that way its exactly like a company, in this instance you have SIC codes, if your a company your SIC must make sense to own the chemicals.

Lets say I am a dress maker, none of my SIC codes would allow me as a business to own or buy licensed goods, so yes I totally agree with your LTD company point.

I Dont see any difference between our views, I do think there is regional differences. Having also spoken with a few, its a bit of a lottery. Maybe your point about how you present has alot more going for it than people think.

The purpose of this thread was to give a blow by blow account of the process, I wanted to share what my experience was. So far its been very mixed, but for my area i would say its on a par to what I would expect.

I have spoken with people from different areas, if anyone has a license and is in say Bradford area, please drop me a U2U.

I have spoken to alot of different areas, I got to say though that so far none have been in Manchester,Liverpool or Bradford, I am sure they exist. But I would like to know the type of experience it has been.


You are quite right to say you cannot just apply willy nilly but if you can demonstrate good reason for your application then there is no reason it should fail.
I can think that youth may be a barrier and in some cases that may be justified. If however, said young person has thought carefully about their application, the authorities will note that.
Sometimes a criminal conviction can be a barrier but sometimes it is not. It depends on the offence/s really. Note that at the time of application you MUST declare EVERYTHING.

Illness either physical or mental can also be a barrier but I can tell you that is not always the case. It is all done on an individual basis.

Domestic situation or even your location may be an issue for a raft of reasons but with the correct forethought much can be overcome.

I am not going to give out a list of 'good reasons' or help the wrong people become licensed suffice to say if you really are the right sort of material to be doing all of this stuff then you are likely to get on fine. Be patient, be respectful to authority and don't get clever.

Just remember there are loads of experiments to do without the need for any of this process.

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-2-2018 at 17:28

Alot of it is theory, you are obviously aware some counties in England just 'ignore' the law. Brick wall syndrome, this is a general chem forum, the types here dont normally have specific reasons to own. That in itself becomes a barrier, obviously one of my choices in setting up a company was for a little leeway.

But generally, if its just normal hobby chemistry then LTD or even EPP isnt worth it. Just do without the listed stuff, if you cant then in all honesty be prepared for a bit of a ride.

I had hoped to update, but at the moment prudence stops me. Everything is ok, but things have got a little tricky, let get over this hump and I will detail the latest info. If you are stupid enough to replicate this, just for shit and giggles kinda like I did. Then DONT!

It gets very unfunny very quickly, ok i didnt do it for shit and giggles, but looking back i might not have been so willing to find out had I known the full implications.

A couple of words of warning, while a criminal record dosnt always stop a license, in many places if they have reason or time, they will dig deep. if you hold views others might find a bit left or right of center, then clean it up.

If your young like me, then dont mix politics, sexuality or non science related stuff with your hobby. It seems the days of free speech now have a price tag. Currently even though legal to own things like Conc Nitric Acid, i dont currently have any.

I have needed to drop back a bit, this is a precaution more than anything, but I had expected all this to be over by now. Seems in some ways its just starting to get rolling, also assume nothing, silly things like receipts begin to matter.

Thiocyanate - 10-2-2018 at 13:59

Ok,
To say you feel you should have gone about all this in a different way, well you said it yourself. Some issues you have raised warrant further investigation and leave big questions unaswered, in fact the potential ramifications of some of them are very serious. That is not a matter for discussion here.

The following is meant for the general 'you'.

If you are serious about amateur Chemistry then quickly you will come up against the need for licensable substances. The big problem with not getting the capacity to legally own things like Nitric acid above 3% or the luxury of 35% H2O2 etc is that one cannot practice efficiently. Also the tenptation to get stuff under the radar just to get an experiment done is something we are all subject to.
In recommending that other folk don't bother with lisencing you are in fact compounding the problem. Just because you have taken a very ill advised course of action without seeking any sensible counsel is testament that you are not yet best placed to give advice to anyone.
I think you will gain invaluable insight from this process and inadvertantly will end up able to advise with some credibility, but not just now.
Let me reiterate, if you are patient and prepared to listen then there is a perfectly good and confident route you can walk and hold your head up as I do now, myself and others.

The content of this topic is taxing on the mind to say the least, well it is on mine anyway!
I have had one or two good responses on here and hope very much to get more.

It is your choice to either take a sensible path in all this or a random and difficult one.
If you choose the former option then there is a number of people who will help.
If you choose the latter then you are on your own. Not everyone has the luxury of access to legal advice or the position in life that could cope with a heavy duty tangle with the authorities.
If you are a genuine business start up then the official business route is the one for you.
If you are an amateur that wants to demonstrate science through the medium of chemistry
then EPP is the way to go.
I speak from current and up to date first hand positive experiences and apart from routine stuff have had no harassment from the authorities at all. In fact the exact opposite is the case. (I am not so naive as to think things cant change)
Believe me when I tell you, if I get all this wrong I have so much to loose it is unreal. It is not just me who will suffer.
I will not add any more to this thread for now but will answer u2u.
Thanks for your time.

NEMO-Chemistry - 10-2-2018 at 14:51

Quote: Originally posted by Thiocyanate  
Ok,
To say you feel you should have gone about all this in a different way, well you said it yourself. Some issues you have raised warrant further investigation and leave big questions unaswered, in fact the potential ramifications of some of them are very serious. That is not a matter for discussion here.

The following is meant for the general 'you'.

If you are serious about amateur Chemistry then quickly you will come up against the need for licensable substances. The big problem with not getting the capacity to legally own things like Nitric acid above 3% or the luxury of 35% H2O2 etc is that one cannot practice efficiently. Also the tenptation to get stuff under the radar just to get an experiment done is something we are all subject to.
In recommending that other folk don't bother with lisencing you are in fact compounding the problem. Just because you have taken a very ill advised course of action without seeking any sensible counsel is testament that you are not yet best placed to give advice to anyone.
I think you will gain invaluable insight from this process and inadvertantly will end up able to advise with some credibility, but not just now.
Let me reiterate, if you are patient and prepared to listen then there is a perfectly good and confident route you can walk and hold your head up as I do now, myself and others.

The content of this topic is taxing on the mind to say the least, well it is on mine anyway!
I have had one or two good responses on here and hope very much to get more.

It is your choice to either take a sensible path in all this or a random and difficult one.
If you choose the former option then there is a number of people who will help.
If you choose the latter then you are on your own. Not everyone has the luxury of access to legal advice or the position in life that could cope with a heavy duty tangle with the authorities.
If you are a genuine business start up then the official business route is the one for you.
If you are an amateur that wants to demonstrate science through the medium of chemistry
then EPP is the way to go.
I speak from current and up to date first hand positive experiences and apart from routine stuff have had no harassment from the authorities at all. In fact the exact opposite is the case. (I am not so naive as to think things cant change)
Believe me when I tell you, if I get all this wrong I have so much to loose it is unreal. It is not just me who will suffer.
I will not add any more to this thread for now but will answer u2u.
Thanks for your time.


SERIOUSLY

You have made a huge ERROR!!

Read again please.

I will make this perfectly clear.

I DID NOT SAY DONT GET A LICENSE.

I said if you just want to do chemistry then
DONT GET A LICENSE
but equally DONT GET LICENSED CHEMICALS!!

I am most certainly not advocating you get things that require a license, infact the complete opposite, unless you have NEED, practice chemistry as a hobby do without the conc nitric and conc hydrogen peroxide!!

Some areas of chemistry require you to get a license, most here are general as I stated. Those in energetic s etc are mainly not UK based here.

My role from the start was to explore what general interests routes we had. From that perspective forget the chemistry involved and forget the license, it isnt worth it.


But one last time

I am totally and utterly saying DO NOT BREAK THE LAW.

I am saying most here on this forum can do without the restricted chemicals, many things start to come into play for general chem, certainly with a EPP.

One thing I will add, I have done alot of research, Thio your perspective is an extremely narrow field of chemistry, I would argue this isnt the crowd who need to get EPP's.

Most here for the purpose they use wont get them. The situations are completely different. Your going to disagree and I understand why, as you say this isnt for a open conversation at the moment.

People you might talk too, then yes your likely completely right, from what I know of here they wont get the same treatment as others have.

I honestly dont think you realize hoe much difference the reason makes. People in the UK that NEED a license, are aware of what and why. Those are not the people this is for.

There are places they go for information and to have there needs catered for. But dont confuse others with strictly general chem in mind or to some extent recovery of metals, with other forms of fun.

Things have moved a bit, I am certain its getting apples and oranges from our perspectives. But mainly dont go reading what i say then spin it a different way!

If you want to comment and thats fine, do so but read really carefully, implying I suggested people dont get a license and still kept what they shouldnt, is not helpful at all to me, and is certainly completely opposite to what i said.

I am positive your view is clouded by the things you may do, maybe thats is what sits first in your mind. Those kind of people are fine, they are (surprisingly to me) fine, they seem to get a EPP with not too much trouble (save a few areas), no one your particularly talking too is in your position or the position of some others.

I will at some point contact you again and clear this up. But i stand by what i said for general chemistry, even more so at the moment. I am not the only one in my situation, although both have alot in common.

So we clear now?

You do understand you misread dont you?

Thiocyanate - 11-2-2018 at 07:01

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
Quote: Originally posted by Thiocyanate  
Ok,
To say you feel you should have gone about all this in a different way, well you said it yourself. Some issues you have raised warrant further investigation and leave big questions unaswered, in fact the potential ramifications of some of them are very serious. That is not a matter for discussion here.

The following is meant for the general 'you'.

If you are serious about amateur Chemistry then quickly you will come up against the need for licensable substances. The big problem with not getting the capacity to legally own things like Nitric acid above 3% or the luxury of 35% H2O2 etc is that one cannot practice efficiently. Also the tenptation to get stuff under the radar just to get an experiment done is something we are all subject to.
In recommending that other folk don't bother with lisencing you are in fact compounding the problem. Just because you have taken a very ill advised course of action without seeking any sensible counsel is testament that you are not yet best placed to give advice to anyone.
I think you will gain invaluable insight from this process and inadvertantly will end up able to advise with some credibility, but not just now.
Let me reiterate, if you are patient and prepared to listen then there is a perfectly good and confident route you can walk and hold your head up as I do now, myself and others.

The content of this topic is taxing on the mind to say the least, well it is on mine anyway!
I have had one or two good responses on here and hope very much to get more.

It is your choice to either take a sensible path in all this or a random and difficult one.
If you choose the former option then there is a number of people who will help.
If you choose the latter then you are on your own. Not everyone has the luxury of access to legal advice or the position in life that could cope with a heavy duty tangle with the authorities.
If you are a genuine business start up then the official business route is the one for you.
If you are an amateur that wants to demonstrate science through the medium of chemistry
then EPP is the way to go.
I speak from current and up to date first hand positive experiences and apart from routine stuff have had no harassment from the authorities at all. In fact the exact opposite is the case. (I am not so naive as to think things cant change)
Believe me when I tell you, if I get all this wrong I have so much to loose it is unreal. It is not just me who will suffer.
I will not add any more to this thread for now but will answer u2u.
Thanks for your time.


SERIOUSLY

You have made a huge ERROR!!

Read again please.

I will make this perfectly clear.

I DID NOT SAY DONT GET A LICENSE.

I said if you just want to do chemistry then
DONT GET A LICENSE
but equally DONT GET LICENSED CHEMICALS!!

I am most certainly not advocating you get things that require a license, infact the complete opposite, unless you have NEED, practice chemistry as a hobby do without the conc nitric and conc hydrogen peroxide!!

Some areas of chemistry require you to get a license, most here are general as I stated. Those in energetic s etc are mainly not UK based here.

My role from the start was to explore what general interests routes we had. From that perspective forget the chemistry involved and forget the license, it isnt worth it.


But one last time

I am totally and utterly saying DO NOT BREAK THE LAW.

I am saying most here on this forum can do without the restricted chemicals, many things start to come into play for general chem, certainly with a EPP.

One thing I will add, I have done alot of research, Thio your perspective is an extremely narrow field of chemistry, I would argue this isnt the crowd who need to get EPP's.

Most here for the purpose they use wont get them. The situations are completely different. Your going to disagree and I understand why, as you say this isnt for a open conversation at the moment.

People you might talk too, then yes your likely completely right, from what I know of here they wont get the same treatment as others have.

I honestly dont think you realize hoe much difference the reason makes. People in the UK that NEED a license, are aware of what and why. Those are not the people this is for.

There are places they go for information and to have there needs catered for. But dont confuse others with strictly general chem in mind or to some extent recovery of metals, with other forms of fun.

Things have moved a bit, I am certain its getting apples and oranges from our perspectives. But mainly dont go reading what i say then spin it a different way!

If you want to comment and thats fine, do so but read really carefully, implying I suggested people dont get a license and still kept what they shouldnt, is not helpful at all to me, and is certainly completely opposite to what i said.

I am positive your view is clouded by the things you may do, maybe thats is what sits first in your mind. Those kind of people are fine, they are (surprisingly to me) fine, they seem to get a EPP with not too much trouble (save a few areas), no one your particularly talking too is in your position or the position of some others.

I will at some point contact you again and clear this up. But i stand by what i said for general chemistry, even more so at the moment. I am not the only one in my situation, although both have alot in common.

So we clear now?

You do understand you misread dont you?


The big problem with forums is styles of writing and interpretations.

Nowhere in my post did I suggest you are saying that people should experiment illegally. I am simply taking issue with the fact that you could be discouraging people from the EPP application process and thus driving them inadvertently to another mode of operation.
You have not suggested that people should experiment illegally, for the record.

Your own walk through the fire has been pretty devastating and that is due to you deciding a course of action without seeking proper council from those already there. you've kind of done it afterwards and as I said previously you will end up with a unique insights that will prove useful, but at what cost.

At your age I screwed up a lot of things and got burned (Metaphorically) so badly it is unreal. By the age of 20 I had decided to live a straight life and have never looked back. Long time ago now. you will look back and see all this differently in time.
I guarantee it. (were no so far removed from each other we humans!!)

Anyone who does science demonstrations through the medium of chemistry should look at going forward with the EPP application regardless and getting a proportionally sensible number of items at first, the more the merrier!!!! Strength in numbers!!
The possibility of forming a dedicated organisation perhaps?

I do have to disagree with the following: part quote from your post "One thing I will add, I have done alot of research, Thio your perspective is an extremely narrow field of chemistry, I would argue this isnt the crowd who need to get EPP's."

My experience is more in amateur chemistry, Pyrotechnics is a fraction of my interest. The main thrust is 17th 18th 19th century chemistry, all the good stuff!
I am considering some organic chemistry for the future but will give it careful thought first.
Since the changes in the law began in the last few years both pyrotechnics and chemistry have been lumped together by the law.
Admittedly to go to a real depth in Pyro the EPP holder must go down the Explosive license route as well. Again, not as daunting as it sounds but for practical reasons more factors will be considered and those who practice are much fewer in number.

I have spoken to an Explosives Liaison Officer about enquiries from people that would flag up. The most important thing is openness and if anyone seems evasive, even just out of nerves, that gets some interest.

Both Amateur Pyro and Chemist are now intrinsically linked in law and what is true for the pyro is true for the chemist, no ifs or buts.
That is the way the authorities see it and they are who decides who does what.

Again, you are not suggesting that people give the law the finger, you just do not know enough to be advising anyone just yet.

If your situation straightens out fine and you end up with a good working relationship with the authorities and get to tick along nicely as some of us do (with caution) I will be asking you questions as you will have a unique insight and I will be grateful for the lesson.

All the best for now.

woelen - 11-2-2018 at 07:51

Reading all this from thiocyanate and NEMO-Chemistry, I have the impression that the two of you are not that far apart, but I can imagine some of the points NEMO mentions may make a difference.

In NL we also have to deal with this. I know of two persons who have an EP-license (most likely there will be more, but I do not know of them), with one of them I have personal contact. One of the persons is using chemistry for art-purposes. He uses nitric acid to add a patina to certain metals (e.g. green patina to copper, black to silver) and makes pictures and sculptures in metal or mixed metal-other materials. The other person uses nitric acid or conc. hydrogen peroxide for recycling precious metals and purifying these. By using concentrated materials he produces much less waste. He does this for hobby-purposes and has arranged everything, not just the EP-licensing, but also adhering to zoning-regulations (storage and waste) and firefighting regulations, because he works with fairly large volumes (multiple liters). Both persons use fairly large volumes (10...20 liters per year or so) and then you definitely need a license.

I myself also have considered getting an EP-license, but my usage is too generic and very small-scale (test tubes, at most tens of ml). I simply cannot specify how much I need on a yearly basis, I also have no need to purchase the chemicals. How can one ask a license for e.g. nitric acid and specify that no purchases need to be made? I only use very small quantities (less than 250 ml per year, probably much less, and I make it myself by means of distillation from H2SO4 and NaNO3). The same is true for KClO3 or NaClO3. I certainly use less than 50 grams per year, so why bother buying it. I make it myself from KCl or NaCl by means of a micro-chlorate cell (I have written a web page about this cell) and I make 30 grams per run or something like that. This also is true for KClO4 or NaClO4. I make these myself from legally available NH4ClO4, I only need gram quantities per year for some fun-demos or some experiments with transition metal complexes, not more. Even fairly conc. H2O2 is not a real issue for me. From legally available 12% H2O2 I can freeze out some water and this allows me to reach 25-ish percent concentrations. Again, at tens of ml scale, not more.

Do I need a license for this? Maybe, I do not know.
Will I ever get a license for this? I don't think so. I don't try.

I think that many people who do general chemistry will run into the same issues. We don't know what experiments we will do in advance. We don't know which chemicals we will want (need?) next year. My experiments are driven by many things. Just finding an interesting read, being triggered by a thread on sciencemadness, discussion with a friend, that kind of things determine what I am doing.

Things also seem to be a bit different when I compare UK-law with NL-law. We have the EP-license (Explosives Precursors), but we do not have a poisons license. I still can use stuff like K2Cr2O7, borax or oxalic acid. Buying these becomes more difficult in NL, but I do not have the impression that this is forbidden by law. These compounds may not be marketed anymore as consumer products for certain hobbies or domestic uses (so not a cleaning product based on borax, or a photographic contrast enhancer, based on CrO3, or a mordant based on K2Cr2O7), but the pure lab-chemicals, sold as is, still can be purchased, albeit with some effort.

My advice would be to make the licensed chemicals yourself, but only in small quantities, to be used when needed. Get yourself some equipment (an investment of EUR 100 will give you a decent second hand NS14 micro-distillation set for distilling a few tens of ml of liquid, an investment of less than EUR 50 will give you access to chlorates from simple table salt or KCl in quantities of tens of grams per batch).

Do not store larger quantities of the licensed chemicals and definitely try not to obtain them illegally from some shady (online) source.



[Edited on 11-2-18 by woelen]

DavidJR - 13-2-2018 at 05:48

Oddly enough dichromate isn't on the list of stuff you need an EPP licence for, though it is relatively difficult to buy as an individual. I bought some recently, and had to get it from a Russian eBay seller. I have also seen analog photographic suppliers that will refuse to sell potassium dichromate crystals to individuals but will happily sell them a prepackaged acidified dichromate solution as "chromium intensifier" and as bleaches for reversal processing.

Looking at the regulated substances some of the chemicals listed as poisons are admittedly pretty nasty, and have limited uses. I don't particularly mind the level of regulation around these. But for others, it just seems totally disproportionate. As I've mentioned already, oxalic acid is a strange one to regulate. And "phenols" is far, far too broad in my opinion.

I can at least see the public good in regulating explosives precursors, given the situation with attacks over the past couple of years, but I'm don't see the poisons part as solving any real problem. Even then, the fact is that given readily available chemicals it isn't that hard to make many of these explosives precursors. If a terrorist is willing to go to the effort of making their own explosives it isn't hard to believe that they'll happily make their own nitric acid etc first. So the efficacy of this legislation is really questionable.


Thiocyanate - 14-2-2018 at 05:24

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Oddly enough dichromate isn't on the list of stuff you need an EPP licence for, though it is relatively difficult to buy as an individual. I bought some recently, and had to get it from a Russian eBay seller. I have also seen analog photographic suppliers that will refuse to sell potassium dichromate crystals to individuals but will happily sell them a prepackaged acidified dichromate solution as "chromium intensifier" and as bleaches for reversal processing.

Looking at the regulated substances some of the chemicals listed as poisons are admittedly pretty nasty, and have limited uses. I don't particularly mind the level of regulation around these. But for others, it just seems totally disproportionate. As I've mentioned already, oxalic acid is a strange one to regulate. And "phenols" is far, far too broad in my opinion.

I can at least see the public good in regulating explosives precursors, given the situation with attacks over the past couple of years, but I'm don't see the poisons part as solving any real problem. Even then, the fact is that given readily available chemicals it isn't that hard to make many of these explosives precursors. If a terrorist is willing to go to the effort of making their own explosives it isn't hard to believe that they'll happily make their own nitric acid etc first. So the efficacy of this legislation is really questionable.


Just for your info regarding the revisions to the Poisons act.

A couple of years ago the was credible intelligence to suggest that a chemical/poison attack could have been on the agenda or more likely than before. This was reported on publicly via mainstream media but largely forgotten. This was also mentioned to me personally in the same week as the announcement through a discussion on the subject.

If there was particular intel to suggest a certain type of attack that we don't know about it would mean that the current revisions are outside of our comprehension.

The reasoning in some cases is bound to be flawed and in my own view it is. That said it is something else we/I must deal with now regardless.

Regarding hexavalent Chromium, I think this is purely enviromental thinking and has nothing to do with public safety on a terrorist angle.


[Edited on 14-2-2018 by Thiocyanate]

NEMO-Chemistry - 14-2-2018 at 21:01

Ok lets open a can of worms....

The EPP and in particular the poisons act, is not IMHO what people think it is, nor is it solely being the used for its intended purpose.

Lets first establish some understandings.
EPP is a mess of regulation, it spans a number of acts of parliament and also a great deal of secondary legislation. If you dont understand the difference between primary, and secondary legislation then start there if you really want to understand whats going on.

On top of this we are a member of a club, we call it Europe. It has a broad set of rules and regs, we have woven EU law, and different 'advisories' into our own legislation. As a broad general statement, things like treaties get covered by acts, most others bits are pasted into law with secondary tools.

So you have

Poison
Explosives
Chemicals
Environmental
Health and safety at work
And many others, broadly covered by the primary acts that the EPP seeks to address. Some things the Uk as a nation backs strongly, an example of this is Chromium in the Environment. While we are a Island nation of small size, we get ALL drinking water inland. We do zero desalination for public consumption, so we take waterways really seriously in the UK, in most cases at least.

Here where I live, we have a septic tank. Actually we have 3 septic tanks, dating from 130 years old to 2 years old. Each is covered by S.E.P.A rules (Scottish Environmental Protection Agency). I also happen to live in a Agri and forestry area, this is classed as Nitrate sensitive area.

Our tanks have been tested by SEPA, the outflow have to reach very high standards. An example of this was the old tank, it covers two bathrooms in the oldest part of the house. Unknown to us the discharge was wrong, we had a new tank installed to cover guest accommodation two years ago.

Before the new tank went live, we had to have the system certified and tested. it passed but they also tested the other tanks. These had certificates and were as far as we knew ok. One tank failed for Nitrate and general discharge.

While the outflow looked fine, it did infact discharge some raw effluent. All our tanks discharge into the top of the woodland, we are on a large hill with a steady climb. All hell broke loose for three weeks, the first week we had threats of fines in the £10,000s range. Second week this had dropped to <£10,000, third week we paid £500 for a notice and another £350 for a re certification.

So keep that in mind.

Oxalic acid, I have had the police, 'expert' (no fucking idea who this guy is), SEPA and various local authority people crawl over us for the last 2 years. Most of it very recently, I also live in an area that has a huge major artery route going straight through our wood at the bottom, then the other side of the wood across the road, blends in the Galloway forest eventually.

We get a heard of deer cross us twice a years, we seem to be a nursery for a small heard of Deer in the spring and summer. We are on the route to a major ferry port, so roughly 6-8 times a day we get alot of lorries past us. We are on top of the Hill and dont really see or hear them, we sit just over 1/4 mile away from the road up the driveway.

Deer get hit alot, we often find badly injured deer that have managed to get into the bottom paddock. They are in a state, mostly lorry hits as car hits are easy to tell. When a car hits a deer you get police, fire, and ambulance turn up alot. The deer can do alot of damage to a car, but lorries just keep rolling for the ferry port.

So after moving here, we got a firearms license. original purpose was fox's, shotgun for the foofing rabbits. We have several very large dogs now, we dont get much of a fox problem anymore, but we do get deer injured. In Scotland although under 18 I am an adult in law, so I applied for a fire arms license and was granted it.

I have shot two fox's and 22 Deer, all badly hurt. So what has this got to do with Oxalic acid? Well one the police firearms guys, is also the explosive guy and some shit to do with local planning (dont ask me why the police have a planing law officer), we also have the 'expert' he has zero to do with police, and the police guy who does has something to do with EPP.

The police guy has seen the oxalic acid alot, actually he asked about it because he keeps Bees apparently. He assumed we had Bee hives, which we kind of do, kind of because we leave them alone. No one gives a shit about Oxalic acid, not SEPA, not the police, not the 'expert'.

Recently when showing my 'stash', of naughty chems to them, its always brushed aside as a kind of PITA. They dont seem that keen on listing it and adding it to the paper work. I find that real strange, I have also asked bluntly if I didnt have the set up that I do, how much shit would I be in for the Oxalic acid.

Now this applies to me and no one else, do not assume the following is UK wide. I want to make this very very clear, I asked for me in my area with the people who deal with it, what would happen to ME. The reply was pretty much it was laughed off. i have also seen it openly for sale on ebay and other places.

Now FFS dont go buy it if you dont have a EPP, thats stupid. But what I cant get my head around is this. Oxalic acid on the poisons list, no one in my area gives a shit if you have it or not. Nitric acid however is different, they list it and record it and take it seriously.

I asked what would happen if I wasnt set up as I am, I was told I would be reported to the PF, which in England is equiv to the CPS. Then we get to Hydrogen peroxide 32%. A great deal of interest in this, every visit my log is checked and they want to see the stores of it.

I dont actually have much most the time, I buy it in 1 ltr bottles, sometimes 5 ltrs if I need it for cleaning out the hydroponic systems etc. I didnt ask about this one, i didnt have too. They go through my log, they jump on anything and everything they dont like in it.

For example an entry for ~500ml system flush. I was asked what this meant, i explained. Then 5 ltrs lost, very interested in this and I got a really rough ride of questions. Actually it wasnt lost, as in i didnt no where it had gone. It was lost in the sense that I got it, then 3 months later went to use it and nada. It was dead as dodo, i have no idea if I got like that or if somehow it had just 'gone bad'.

I had opened it, but not used it. It was warmer than I would normally keep it, but TBH no idea why it was little more than water, so I wrote in my books LOST. In the software I use for accounts, things like bacterial cultures i buy in, are written off as lost if they die without use. And this is what I did with the peroxide.

I have changed it now, but it was a bitch to alter the accounting software. The software is set up so thing like broken flasks etc, are marked in it as broken. Well I spose you could argue the HP was broken, but didnt seem right to me, then I have a label that says used, well ididnt use it and using it costs me money tax wise.

So i didnt use, used in the description, then i had lost as a label, well that kind of fits. I had 32% HP and now I dont, I have no idea where my oxygen went, so its lost and I dont pay tax on it i claim the tax back. Actually i cant claim it back but thats another story.

My point is, HP in MY area is one of two chemicals they really care about. The other isnt even on a list, acetone. i am also into electronics and used to make my own circuit boards, its actually cheaper now to design, then get them made up now. But 5 years ago it was worth making them.

So i used and had alot of Acetone and IPA, no one cares about the IPA. But the HP and Acetone around here, is of great interest. When they ask for my books (stock books), I normally give them the sheets that cover 4 cabinets. The Acetone isnt in any of these, I actually keep it in the house where I do electronics and repair the broken ebay stuff i buy.

They always ask to see the stock sheet for it, technically I could indeed argue, i could just say..... fuck off without a warrant you got no right to see it. The local cops would care much, they treat me decent most the time, I know them and they know me, i know some of there family as its a tiny place.

But the English 'expert', now this guy dosnt strike me as the kind of guy you want to tell to fuck off. He hasnt said very much, he has asked alot of questions and talked about many things relating to some chemicals, but zero chit chat. Some might sit here reading this and think, well i would just say go fuck yourself.

Some will sit and think, make sure your legal then say nothing to them, I choose to go inside and print off a sheet with it on. It shouldnt be on a sheet, i dont actually use it for business, I use it for a hobby. So in reality it shouldnt be on my books, but it is now and I do log its use.

Yep Acetone not on any list anywhere, but I keep records of what I use and how much.

So back to EPP

What is it actually for? I think its for a number of reasons, depending on who you are dealing with. HSE are interested not in what you have so much, but to me its more like making sure my fucking ladder is the right type, the labels are right and the weights are kept correctly.

I am aware we have a member that is from the HSE, no offense intended at them, but the little interaction I have had with them, has made me think of them a bit like a over protective mother, one with really BAD OCD!!

Nice guys, please dont get me wrong, really helpful people who will give you advice all day long, but really anal OCD types when you get it wrong. The ladder thing is real BTW, i got a chepo ladder with 4 sections, its actually 3 with another one to hook over the roof.

Mine is a bog standard DIY type, but mine is used for my business, it was brought with cash from my business. So its the wrong type!! How I got found out was silly, i was redoing the lab and using it to put a false plaster board roof up inside.

On the day the guy from the HSE came to give me some help and advice, it was up in the corner. he asked what I was using it for and I told him, i didnt expect the lecture nor did I expect him to order me to take it down and get another type.

So in all honesty I have no idea what the purpose of the EPP is, some things on it are blatantly ignored, some things that are not on it are of great interest.

Some who are member here, i have spoken to on the phone. I wont mention them and what was discussed is private and will always be so. Some the info i can pass on if it dosnt identify them, some the info i would really like to pass on, but have been explicitly asked not too.

My network currently stands at 31 people I have spoken with, most have EPP's, some do not. This dosnt not mean they should have EPP's, I am just pointing out i have regular contact now with 31, the contact is specifically to do with EPP or EPP related/ business related matters.

I havnt included any soapers, some of whom should probably get an EPP! It dosnt cover some people from my electronics or RC model mates. Many of those I know from electronics should have EPP's and dont, these are the hardest group to talk to. Try and explain to a guy who is 70's, and done electronics as a professional since Noahs day, that some the shit he has needs a license!

HP is often used to make a potent etchant, many of the people using it havnt a clue sodium chloride is table salt. So explaining why getting the stuff they get, from the places they get it from, falls on deaf ears.

I feel for these people, they dont read anything to do with chemicals normally, they dont really see the big deal with peroxide or Nitric acid. Mention Acetone would be of interest to some people and they think your mad.

A number of people I talk to are into pyro, i wont give you a number but its more than 7. ALL have EPP's and ALL think every home chemist should get one.

If I am honest I think part the reason is pure selfish worry for there own hobby. They are scared shitless more chemicals will be added, and more explosives regulations will be put upon them. Tough, if i am honest pyro is likely the one area I would be most concerned with.

I dont like people making things go bang when I dont expect it, and i will admit, i see home pyro as a threat to everyday chemistry. Infact lets be clear here.

Home Pyro is so regulated and the people involved that i KNOW on some level or other, are the most professional hobby chemist i know, they take every rule and reg extremely seriously. They dot every I and cross every T, without exception all those i am in contact with, are not amateurs as such, but better described as unpaid professionals.

Also if you think logically they are alot like the cooks and kewls, pyro's with a EPP are about as likely to make something for terror, as most the hobby people here with fume hoods and all the gear, are likely to make drugs.
As a group I doubt a single one will ever cause a problem intentionally, like drugs the profile is normally the exact opposite.

Guy buys a condenser and people think hes a drug cook, realty however says, drug cooks wouldnt normally know what a fucking condenser looked like. They know all the chemical terms relating to that molecule of interest. But no zero of the chemistry and have no intention of getting equipment.

But my problem with the pyro's is most, actually all those I have spoken with, would like every home chemist to get a EPP. Regardless if they need it, even people like Mr W, who makes tiny amounts of conc Nitric acid for test tube experiment as and when he needs it.

What actually concerns them is there hobby, they are worried that if non pyros get caught with a 100ml conc Nitric then EPP's might get taken away from everyone. most home pyros get a EPP based on experimental firework research grounds. Its not so much they want to do shows for the local community, they like playing with stuff that goes bang.

Thats cool with me, but many of them hide behind this, WTF is experimental firework research?? What exactly they researching? I ask because so far as I can tell 99.9% of them make the same stuff the same way as everyone else, how is that research?

It isnt, but they wont be honest and apply for a license that says, i like making fireworks, I have a thing about bangs and fireworks. Dont get we wrong, some of this group are like Bert.

Bert is a completely different kettle of fish, for a start he is a pro. Some the guys I speak with are semi pro, most dont manufacture however so the rules are different. They make fireworks and let them off, some keep them for private shows. But few IMHO have a good enough reason to do it for any other reason than its a hobby.

Some have made a business around it, but mostly its a hobby. Most also really dont like businesses like mine, two are really pissed off I can ring a supplier and get stuff sent to my lab. Because most of them have to travel a great distance and show there license in person, when they buy the chems.

Although as I said this is only two of them, most dont seem bothered about the travel bit.

So while it sounds like I am off topic I am not, I am trying to open this up wide, trying to get people to understand that with the EPP you get different groups, because of this we have conflicting interests. I hate to use pyro constantly as an example!! I am really sorry pyro guys, i use you as an example simply because, your group is the best example I can think of that everyone will understand the difference.

Not one of the pyro guys thinks home chemistry should be done without a EPP, it seems they assume everyone uses one the EPP chemicals or might use at some point, or might think of using. Sure they are concerned about your welfare and the trouble you will get in.

BOLLOCKS, main thing they worry about, is the same thing you and I worry about. Lets get totally honest, sure we care about others, but we seem to care more about others, if what they do could affect us and what we like to do. If the government said.......

Look anyone caught without a EPP that should have one, will be prosecuted, BUT it will in no way impact how we view things and further regulations, then sorry, but most of them wouldnt give a shit if you had or needed a EPP.

So back we go to the main point I try and make. IF you use anything on the EPP list then get a license, simple as that. I would put forward one exception, if your biggest crime is Oxalic acid, please talk to YOUR local police.
I am not saying more than that, but yes some have done this, all of them keep bees. None have a EPP, but I dont know if they need a EPP or not.

But If you buy acetone regularly (which isnt listed) and a bit of a mixture of chemicals (none on the EPP list), still go ahead and get a EPP license. The reason is i can promise you that what you buy is interesting to people, getting woken at 3am isnt pleasant and isnt in my limited experience politely done. The door is not lightly knocked, the first words spoken are not " excuse me sir for waking you".

Its actually really surreal, you are completely disorientated, and until they are sure you are completely under control, they are not particularly pleasant to you. Across the pond you might not get this, but those in the UK will. When you suddenly see 4-5 policemen with guns out, and blue lights flashing. Its scary as fuck, especially if you live in a place where you can hear woodworm fart!

it goes abit like this......


Fast asleep having pleasant horny dream. BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG, Shouting, blue and red light dancing over your bedroom wall. Suddenly awake, people talking really loud like your house is on fire. You literally rush to the door, trust me at this point your not 100% on the ball. Your fully awake, but totally confused.

You open the door, people just seem to appear from behind you and speak what seems like really loudly and quickly at you. It seems like 100 questions are fired at you in 5 seconds, its likely 2-3 question in 20-30 seconds.

But dosnt feel like it, the tone is unfriendly. You might see guns, in my own case guns were on shoulders and I am pretty sure being pointed down. I certainly dont remember a gun being pointed at me, but I remember thinking they were making it very obvious guns where in hand.

Please keep in mind my earlier comment, WE are registered FIREARMS keepers, so this could well be why we saw guns openly, it could be they were armed simply because they are aware we have guns on the premise.
I dont know, and by the time i was really back on the ball, i was sat at the table drinking tea and talking nicely with a guy.

Now I have to leave a really big bit out, I have no official reason for the visit, other than information received (thats bollox BTW), i do have a very good idea why. For now it isnt in my interest to talk about this part, as soon as it is, I will update the thread with info i left out. It isnt major, i wasnt a suspect of anything.

I hadnt done anything wrong, but my age is a factor, my location could actually be a reason. But there is another reason, one i find pretty disturbing actually, i doubt its going to apply to 99% people here, but those with a similar demographic as mine and similar age group....

So advice is.

If you honestly dont have or use anything on the list, then dont bother getting a EPP, keep your lab clean and tidy. Try and be professional in how you operate. If you use stuff that isnt on the list but they are interested in, then stop buying it, or get your shit together, seriously consider a EPP. If you got stuff thats on the list.....

My advice is get rid of it, do without it and dont go poking nests. If your thinking about doing chemistry with stuff on the list, think again. I understand that many buy conc Nitric because it saves alot of shipping costs, this is where friends networks are useful.

I might start selling <3% Nitric acid to a couple of people I did the chem club thing with, and a couple of people in another club thing I am involved with. I can buy the concentrated stuff and water it down for them, it would keep costs down and save them having to buy and store cocn nitric when they dont really need it.

It would also save the agro of getting a EPP, for many people getting a EPP is really easy. For pyro types its dead easy to get in some ways. For none pyro types and those not in business or doing 'research' into metals or whatever, then getting a EPP can be a bitch.

A couple of UK places it dont matter what you do, one northern place in particular, getting a EPP for a hobby is NOT going to happen, and I hate to say it but, if i was in charge in that place, you wouldnt get a fucking license off me either for any reason.

I can just imagine the pile of shit on that fan, if someone with a license did something bad it that area!! Honestly common sense should tell you exactly why you aint getting one. I know some groups have tried to push for them in this area, they see it as unfair.

It isnt that they are turned down for the EPP, its the fact you dont get your forms processed, the phones isnt answered etc etc etc. Well for those in that place, sorry about your situation, but what the hell do you expect? You seriously think anyone is going to take a chance there?

Ever heard the saying, Once bitten twice shy? Well just because the dog didnt have a EPP or an interest in chemistry as such, makes no difference. Your still asking to play with things that have already bitten, and bitten hard in that area. If its that big a deal to you then think about those that live there, think about those affected and move house.

Be sensitive, forget whats right or wrong, move if you really cant live without playing with those kinds of chems.

Sorry if it seems a bit a of a ramble, there is zero ramble i promise you. But until those that contact me, also start posting the bits i am missing out, i have to get information out in odd ways.

This wont last long however, I am pretty close to explaining everything I know about, and everything thats happened. DO NOT CONTACT ME and ask me to keep my mouth shut, if it relates to this thread, then sorry but you say it here in the open. If it relates to this thread and its contents then I dont consider it a private conversation any more.

Now two of you are going to think I am directly talking to you, I am not. This is just something that starting from today I have decided to do across the board for good reason. Whats been discussed in the past in private will remain so, but from now on its kept here in day light.

DavidJR - 15-2-2018 at 10:19

I'm not yet decided about applying for an EPP licence.

I have oxalic acid but as you've mentioned they don't seem to care about that. And the only things I would want on the list are nitric acid and hydrogen peroxide. 12% H2O 2 is still fairly useful, and I guess I don't strictly need any higher concentration, though it would be more cost effective. 3% HNO3 on the other hand is quite limiting.

I'd probably apply if it wasn't for the hassle of:

NEMO-Chemistry - 16-2-2018 at 02:46

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
I'm not yet decided about applying for an EPP licence.

I have oxalic acid but as you've mentioned they don't seem to care about that. And the only things I would want on the list are nitric acid and hydrogen peroxide. 12% H2O 2 is still fairly useful, and I guess I don't strictly need any higher concentration, though it would be more cost effective. 3% HNO3 on the other hand is quite limiting.

I'd probably apply if it wasn't for the hassle of:

  • having to find somewhere to buy chemicals in person (?!)
  • having to get some sort of letter from my GP saying "yep he's a bit crazy but not so that crazy he can't be trusted with nitric acid"
  • also I can't actually supply any of the required address documents in List B with my name on it due to my current living situation


If you intend to use hydrogen peroxide above the allowed concentration, then you have no choice but to get a EPP. Before you apply however think about why your applying, you need to have a good reason to have these chemicals.

A good example of how we think, and how it actually works is firearms.In the UK if you want a gun you can apply for a firearms license.

Little known fact, a shotgun license is alot like police bail, its a right to have and not a privilege. In other words unless they can prove good reason to deny you, then you have a very old 'right' to own.

Firearms are a little different, after Hungerford the Act of parliament itself was changed (primary law), you dont have a 'Right' to own a fire arm anymore, but back in the days when they changed it, they were not as restrictive.

So built into the law is a 50/50, unless they can show on the balance of probability, your unfit. Then they have to at least asses you and consider. Secondary law has been heaped on the Act in the last few years, so firearms are extremely restrictive now.

Where it matters in regards to EPP, you can own a gun for fun. blowing shit out of clay disks is a hobby. Creeping up on deer and putting a lump of lead in its heart is considered a sport worthy of a high price.

EPP isnt like that, they have taken the fun factor out. You cant get a EPP for fun. Even fireworks as above, you cant apply simply because you want to see green and red stars in the sky.

You have to be serious about 'research' into how to make better red and green stars (or whatever your bag is). Dont apply and simply paint a broad stroke, be specific as to WHY you need it.

I have tried to get this across from the start, there is NO HOBBY chemistry. You might consider it a hobby, but your the only guy in the process that does ;).

Then we get to the actual mechanics of it. You are correct about travel for chemicals, so think about what ID you use. In some small cases you can send off for chemicals or open accounts, but you need to use the same ID as the ID you used for the application.

Dont use your passport for ID if its got 12 months left on it, if your going to reapply for a passport fair enough. If you dont intend to then dont use it, use your driving license.

Can you afford to loose the document? Some places to open an account will want the original sent first.

If like me you live a very long way from normal people, and in a place that even a tap washer needs alot of travel, then your going to struggle.

You need to present the license in person with the ID you USED to apply for the EPP. The pool of chemical companies is shrinking really fast.

Watch the prices at Atom Scientific/ APC Pure (same company), they are going up as the competition drops.

Research your companies as well, APC/Atom is part owned by a guy with a large courier company, dig the history and you find they almost went bust (APC). They owed the courier company alot of money.

So a deal was struck and the director of the courier company is now on the board of APC. Things are picking up a little, but again do some digging at companies house, things are not that black and white at the moment.

APC is almost 100% safe the next 12 months, but they are far from stable in a financial sense. The big advantage with them is the courier side, there is seamless integration.

I dont know how it works for EPP, but as a company we can order from them and the delivery driver has authority to drop. I think with EPP you still have to show up in person.

They have a business to business arm called Atom scientific, same chemicals same place, same everything but higher prices. The sting with Atom is the delivery cost.

Not sure if they sell to the public either, I asked if they had a trade counter and they said no. Which is odd seeing as its the same place you go when you buy from APC. Shame as Atom is cheaper for some stuff.

So decide, can you live without the things that need a license? If you can then do without them. Nitric acid fuming away in a bottle, its great to have in a lab, but do you really need that?

Are you a Woelen? Do you use 100ml every 6 months or use that an hour processing metal waste?

Money wise your not going to save much if any, time wise its going to cost you alot. You will have to travel to pick chems up. How do you fancy driving about with those chems?

Actually its one thing I am really against in the EPP system, it increases the number of viechles on the road carrying things you dont want in an accident.

But again, dont go keeping things that need a license if you dont have one. They seem to have stopped playing with people. In the start they had some flex, i dont think they actually knew much about the law, but they have caught up quickly.

Several court cases have gone down, so you also have a known system thats tested. In other words, you might think you can get away with ordering in chems no problem, but you will get caught.

Try and oprder 10 ltr of 3% nitric acid in 3 months, you will get a visit, likely the polite type of visit, but you will get one.

DavidJR - 16-2-2018 at 07:34

To be clear I don't indend to use >12% H2O2 without an EPP licence. I'd like to be able to, but I can live without it. There is a few things I'd really like to do using HNO3 where 3% just isn't going to cut it.

I live in central Scotland and commute into Glasgow, so I'm undoubtedly in a better position re purchasing chemicals in person than you. I'd rather not have to though because it is a hassle, and honestly even the thought of having to go and speak to someone at a chemical company is making me anxious.

Also paper record keeping?! It's 2018. Come on.

ID isn't a problem as I have recently renewed my passport. However for proof of address they require you to provide a recent bank/building society/mortgage statement AND one of: credit card statement, current rental agreement, utility bill. Bank statement I can do, but I don't have a credit card, and I currently live with my parents so I don't have a rental agreement nor any utility bills in my name.

Interesting, I had heard speculation that APC pure was connected to the courier but hadn't had this confirmed. I was also aware of the Atom Scientific brand as the last time I ordered H2O2 from APC Pure it came in a bottle with the Atom Scientific logo on it.

NEMO-Chemistry - 16-2-2018 at 09:09

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
To be clear I don't indend to use >12% H2O2 without an EPP licence. I'd like to be able to, but I can live without it. There is a few things I'd really like to do using HNO3 where 3% just isn't going to cut it.

I live in central Scotland and commute into Glasgow, so I'm undoubtedly in a better position re purchasing chemicals in person than you. I'd rather not have to though because it is a hassle, and honestly even the thought of having to go and speak to someone at a chemical company is making me anxious.

Also paper record keeping?! It's 2018. Come on.

ID isn't a problem as I have recently renewed my passport. However for proof of address they require you to provide a recent bank/building society/mortgage statement AND one of: credit card statement, current rental agreement, utility bill. Bank statement I can do, but I don't have a credit card, and I currently live with my parents so I don't have a rental agreement nor any utility bills in my name.

Interesting, I had heard speculation that APC pure was connected to the courier but hadn't had this confirmed. I was also aware of the Atom Scientific brand as the last time I ordered H2O2 from APC Pure it came in a bottle with the Atom Scientific logo on it.


I own a company, hence the reason for the thread. Due to my age and interests, forming a research company was the best fit.

I am not fully set up business wise, by this I mean i have taken my time, I havnt used all 4 SIC codes yet.

So what has this got to do with you? I am also in Scotland, if you want to be 100% legit in both technical and moral terms, then fairly soon I would be in a position to help you.

So for the benefit of others who read here, and not just members.

I can help you buy Conc Nitric acid, it is 100% legal. You will need the EPP, i might also be able to help with that. I will contact you once I have found a couple of things out.

I wouldnt be able to do anything until i finalize a couple of things at companies house. But after that...

I get upto the Glasgow area every two months, sometimes a bit more frequent and I also go to Edinburgh. If you got your EPP I could deliver to you at your premises for the first time.

After that I might be able to meet elsewhere, depends on something i am having clarified. Apparently there is a conflict with the EPP and Scottish law!!

Its a tiny mismatch in law, but I need to get it clarified as it could affect some other stuff I am doing. Isnt finished yet, but once complete, my company website can transact online.

If you got s Galaxy note or other phone that can write, OR get yourself a certificated online signature (proper one), you can go paperless.

I dont and wont be doing some the chems on the list, I dont need or want them. I am setting up to supply chems, note I said supply not sell.

These are not general orders and not open publicly. So if you want to have a chat at some point let me know. Please be aware however, yes I am young, not I am not pliable, no i wont budge 1mm off the line.

I got too much to loose to be stupid, but I am 100% up for helping if i can. The more people who are legit the better, but balance that with need.

EDIT

Some parts are done on paper for a reason.....a very good reason, i was a bit surprised myself, but if you find the answer out it kind of makes perfect sense.

[Edited on 16-2-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]

DavidJR - 17-2-2018 at 05:44

Yes, I would definitely appreciate any help you may be able to offer.

What's the legal conflict about?

NEMO-Chemistry - 17-2-2018 at 08:06

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Yes, I would definitely appreciate any help you may be able to offer.

What's the legal conflict about?


I dont know precisely, so i dont want to say something that turns out wrong. But as your aware we got some slightly different laws in all kinds of areas up here. Grandfather rights is one of them, they have slightly more power up here than England, or better to say, they are written into Scottish law more strongly.

Also we the new parliment we got other things that are covered by devolution. Its a spaghetti of law as it currently stands.

DavidJR - 18-2-2018 at 03:29

A little bit off topic but re Atom Scientific: there's another company, Source Chemicals (sourcechemicals.com), which has a suspiciously similar looking website. It is a registered company in itself but there must be some connection because one of the directors of Atom Scientific Ltd was previously a director of now-dissolved Web Trade Pro Ltd, the other director of which is the sole director of Source Chemicals Ltd.

NEMO-Chemistry - 18-2-2018 at 16:50

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
A little bit off topic but re Atom Scientific: there's another company, Source Chemicals (sourcechemicals.com), which has a suspiciously similar looking website. It is a registered company in itself but there must be some connection because one of the directors of Atom Scientific Ltd was previously a director of now-dissolved Web Trade Pro Ltd, the other director of which is the sole director of Source Chemicals Ltd.

AFAIK its the company that belongs to the sacked director.

Its a shame but stay away from the solvent shop AKA Darrent Chemicals, they got real problems at the moment.

DavidJR - 18-2-2018 at 17:47

Funny you should mention that actually. I placed an order with Darrant about a week ago, haven't got it yet. So much for "fast reliable delivery".

[Edited on 19-2-2018 by DavidJR]

NEMO-Chemistry - 19-2-2018 at 19:22

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Funny you should mention that actually. I placed an order with Darrant about a week ago, haven't got it yet. So much for "fast reliable delivery".

[Edited on 19-2-2018 by DavidJR]


Give them some time, they have horrendous financial problems. It's a real shame because they did decent prices, i had to stop using them.

Some people never get their stuff, I kind of feel sorry for them. they are in a spiral at the moment, the more orders they mess up or are slow with. The less orders they get, so it gets worse.

The reason they got into trouble in the first place isnt pleasant, they supplied 'another' company. The 'other' company stitched them up. Eventually going directly to another bottle plant.

I wont mention the company for obvious reasons, but I have stopped using them now.

DavidJR - 19-2-2018 at 20:18

How do you even get all this gossip? :)

DavidJR - 21-2-2018 at 02:23

I finally have a response from the Home Office re my FOIA request.
Quote:

Thank you for your e-mail of 24 January 2018, in which you which you ask for information relating to Explosives Precursors and Poisons (EPP) Licences. Your request has been handled as a request for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. You specifically ask for:
1. The total number of applications for an EPP licence which have been made.
2. The total number of applications for an EPP licence which have been granted.

As of 31/01/2018, there have been 388 applications for an EPP licence. Of those 388, 337 have been granted.


So 87% of applications for an EPP licence have been granted.

[Edited on 21-2-2018 by DavidJR]

18thTimeLucky - 21-2-2018 at 06:33

Wow, that is a lot more licenses than I was expecting to have been granted - and with 87% the odds are pretty good for a serious application.
Makes me wonder what would happen to those whose applications are rejected. If they don't want you having those regulated substances I am sure they would doubt you to not think "oh ok, those chemicals I really wanted I am not allowed to have... hehe screw that I'll get hold of them anyways they don't have to know!" If your application failed would you then be put on a watch-list or similar to make sure that would not happen?

NEMO-Chemistry - 22-2-2018 at 04:00

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
I finally have a response from the Home Office re my FOIA request.



Quote:

Thank you for your e-mail of 24 January 2018, in which you which you ask for information relating to Explosives Precursors and Poisons (EPP) Licences. Your request has been handled as a request for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. You specifically ask for:
1. The total number of applications for an EPP licence which have been made.
2. The total number of applications for an EPP licence which have been granted.

As of 31/01/2018, there have been 388 applications for an EPP licence. Of those 388, 337 have been granted.


So 87% of applications for an EPP licence have been granted.

[Edited on 21-2-2018 by DavidJR]


There is some missing information in those figures.

If you do a FOI by region, you find Manchester has no licenses. Infact it has no applications, they are ignored and do not make it far in the process.

I keep saying this and its really important to understand. If you do home chemistry and nothing else, no metal recovery no 'experimental pyrotechnic research' or something of that nature, then forget it.

Two very big misconceptions about the license, One is any LTD company can by the chemicals, this is not true. The supplier does due diligence checks, part of this is to goto companies house and check your SIC codes.

SIC codes are what describes your business main activity, a business may have upto 4. They are tight in scope, so pick dress maker and try to get epp type chemicals, you wont get supplied.

Do a FOI on what is the main class of EPP, by this ask for reason given on application. 60% are precious metal recovery and alot are experimental pyro research. even those that dont actually do pyro much, use that reason on the form.

Alot of think they have the EPP thing covered, alot with a EPP and who have had visits think they are legal, EPP is misunderstood in the UK.

Alot of people contact the police etc before applying for the license, none of those who are told not to apply are on the figures.

EPP is a PITA, expect a great deal of travel to get the chemicals (makes that 2 ltr of nitric acid expensive). Then you have the paperwork side.

List as an example Nitric acid, list reason of use plant food formulation, then get found having used it for metal extraction....

Many of the granted license will be sole trader businesses who didnt want to go the LTD route, artists are pretty high on the list.

People like Bloggers, were visited and told to apply, he was however given some wrong info. In the beginning of EPP, it was 6 months after it started that my local police even knew it was a 'thing!'.

Please please dont focus on, a EPP gets me X,Y,Z chemicals. It is not that simple, also consider not every police force has a planning officer, so check yourself with your local council. Getting a EPP may breach your local planning laws.

For example experimental pyro, yes you might get a EPP and most people in MOST areas will, but then part of your house may have become a business. You may be in breach of planning law, not so sure with England but up here its a muddle.

I have a Ltd company, it has ALL the correct SIC codes including education and chemical manufacture. Yet I am being told I need a EPP, according to the law I dont.

But do you want to risk going to court and finding out? Bloggers did and it didnt go his way. He had reasons to believe he was right, everyone focuses on the charge and the paper report.

Few if any have read the actual court transcript, also he was done at the start of the process. His case has actually altered how many police forces handle applications now.

We all know he had a legit business, but in the end he couldnt use that as a defense. I know of several on here looking 2-5 years currently if found out.

But UK police dont read SM and dont put effort into finding out whos nickname links to which real person do they.

WRONG, its really easy for them to link you to SM and yes its read (kind of) its automated. Only ever been been one place I have EVER mentioned copper nitrate being made from Nitric acid.

I posted a pick of it as well, one the first things i was asked about was to see my copper nitrate.

[Edited on 22-2-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]

DavidJR - 22-2-2018 at 07:25

I tried asking about the number of applications/licenses for each category of substance but they declined to answer that as they estimated it'd exceed the cost limit for FOIA requests. Of course, it took a month to tell me that. And then when I restricted my request to only the overall numbers, that took a month too. I fail to see how my initial request would have exceeded the cost limit if they had licence data in some kind of structured database, or even just a spreadsheet. I therefore assume that they only have the information in unstructured documents, which seems odd. I'm not confident that I'd get the info you suggest I ask for.

Personally I'd rather not register a limited company at this point in time. Perhaps in the future though, as I have been selling some (photographic) chemicals on eBay. But for now I don't think it's worth the additional paperwork etc, especially if it wouldn't solve the EPP issue anyway.

I'm well aware that anything I write online can/will be read by the relevant authorities. Probably more aware than most, actually, though I won't go into why publicly. Also, I've given more than enough info in this thread to be easily identifiable by just about anyone.

DavidJR - 22-2-2018 at 07:45

Also, I would be interested in reading the court transcript for the blogfast/Gert Meyers case - do you know how I can get a copy of it?

NEMO-Chemistry - 22-2-2018 at 09:23

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Also, I would be interested in reading the court transcript for the blogfast/Gert Meyers case - do you know how I can get a copy of it?


There are links but you might be passed the acquire time. Slightly odd as it was public info, bust dosnt seem to be now. Plus he is out now, so i dunno how i feel about posting a copy...

Look in the local area, it should be available.
All a Ltd company does is swap one set of problems for a different set. Interesting they gave you that answer, it fits with a reason i was given verbally, but has nothing to do with money.

Trust me you would have been identified from post one.

DavidJR - 23-2-2018 at 02:38

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

Trust me you would have been identified from post one.


Oh, I know.


Also, re forming a ltd company, do you have any problems ordering from the likes of sigma aldrich/merck who refuse to sell to individuals?

NEMO-Chemistry - 23-2-2018 at 07:05

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

Trust me you would have been identified from post one.


Oh, I know.


Also, re forming a ltd company, do you have any problems ordering from the likes of sigma aldrich/merck who refuse to sell to individuals?

I havnt tried Sigma, i have talked to fischer scientific and as long as i am not looking for credit, i can have an account. i dont have enough trading history to pass the credit score, so i have to pay at time of order.

Sigma is likely to sell to me, but i would expect something like a £500-£1000 minimum order value. At least to begin with, i have set my company up carefully.

There is no reason why i couldnt get a pay on order account with Sigma.

DavidJR - 23-2-2018 at 07:47

Actually, that alone could be reason enough to form a ltd company for many people here. Unless you feel like reselling stuff to us....

NEMO-Chemistry - 26-2-2018 at 19:56

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Actually, that alone could be reason enough to form a ltd company for many people here. Unless you feel like reselling stuff to us....

It would depend on the stuff and amount etc.

For clarity in dont in principle have a problem with this, but before people go jumping with joy......

Anything on a list is on a list, dosnt matter if i sell it to you or they sell it to you, i would require the same paperwork they do.

In other words i wont supply something like conc nitric acid if you dont have a EPP, if you do then yes i would supply you but you have the same restrictions like me seeing the license for the first time etc.

If its things that are hard to get and not on a list, then sure i see no reason why i wouldnt, but I am not set up as a supplier. if i did this on any scale i will need to change a SIC number or you are going to have to pay £10 a year to join a science collective.

I am set up partly as a outreach service, hence the joining fee. Oddly supplying to jome chemists who are a member of a outreach /learning project is different to general supply.

The other restriction is time, its likely i will get min order amounts (value wise) from sigma, Fischer isnt so bad they want orders over £250 and for some the things i do this is pretty easy to do fortnightly.

So depends who wants what, i am not ordering £450 of stuff i dont really need for someone to get £50 of something each week.

I could do a order monthly if enough people, or if i can justify sigma stuff myself. But i am open to ideas and to be honest it may help me. But be totally clear i intend to stay completely legal.

DavidJR - 27-2-2018 at 12:08

Yes, I was meaning stuff that isn't on the list of regulated substances re EPP licensing, but that's just hard to get from anywhere that will sell to individuals.

Fisher seems like a better option then. I wouldn't mind waiting to reach the min order value.

NEMO-Chemistry - 27-2-2018 at 12:42

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Yes, I was meaning stuff that isn't on the list of regulated substances re EPP licensing, but that's just hard to get from anywhere that will sell to individuals.

Fisher seems like a better option then. I wouldn't mind waiting to reach the min order value.

Or oddly enough look at this http://www.betterequipped.co.uk/science-equipment/school-lab...

They wont sell to non education places for anything in the non safe chem bit. BUT the outreach bit is connected to a school, it would be easy to order from them as its £75 then free postage, they only deliver to the school, but i can pick up and repost.

Quality is very very good and many schools use them.We also use these for the outreach side, again they deliver to the main school we work with. But we pay for it and the chems are ours, its just a policy issue with them and nothing else.

Sorry to bang on about EPP, truth is i got a paper on Oxycodone. It mentions how they monitored the effect of the new tamper proof formular.

They did it by monitoring some forums and something like 48,000 posts, they used a keyword automated search!! i got the paper some place that explains it, the point is..... I got to be explicit because what i say here is picked up.

Not with Oxycodone (well it wasnt lol), but other things, i just dont need some program flagging me for no reason.

[Edited on 27-2-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]

DavidJR - 28-2-2018 at 05:06

Ah, yes I've come across that company before, and they do have many useful chemicals and non-jointed glassware at good prices, but anything they deem hazardous they won't sell to individuals. Aka all of the fun toys!

Also that's very interesting, I assume you mean the paper by McNaughton et al?

NEMO-Chemistry - 28-2-2018 at 13:19

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Ah, yes I've come across that company before, and they do have many useful chemicals and non-jointed glassware at good prices, but anything they deem hazardous they won't sell to individuals. Aka all of the fun toys!

Also that's very interesting, I assume you mean the paper by McNaughton et al?


I think thats the paper, i will check. I have access to all there fun toys BTW.

Its just they are delivered for the project to the one the schools and i pick up from there. They are aware of the arrangement and fine with it.

They wont make an exception for me because it would make it difficult to apply the same rules to others who might be in a similar situation.

So i am pretty sure as long as its legal i can help you.

DavidJR - 6-3-2018 at 04:20

Just tried to order (among a handful of other chemicals) dichloromethane from APC and they sent me an email stating something vague about 2014 precursor legislation (but DCM isn’t on the list of regulated substances re EPP licensing). Stated that they will only sell to businesses/sole traders/holders of a home office license. Anyway I am a sole trader so I filled in the declaration of use form that they asked for, specifying the use as lab solvent/reagent. They didn’t accept that and want clarification as to the use as it’s a residential address. I’m not really sure what to tell them beyond “lab solvent”. Am I meant to list every possible thing I might want to dissolve in DCM?

Swinfi2 - 6-3-2018 at 09:41

If ACP is giving you trouble over non-restricted substances theirs always free market competition. I found this seller today, not used them yet but their prices seem very low.

let me know how it goes? :)

EDIT: I just read their reviews, looks like their cashing out on that 97.3% rating and scamming people :(

EDIT2: Damn, I saw your post about darrant chemicals, but didn't put 2+2 together with it being "solvent-shop", thanks for the warning.



[Edited on 6-3-2018 by Swinfi2]

DavidJR - 6-3-2018 at 09:42

Warning: stay well away from Darrant Distribution Ltd/Darrant Chemicals/solvent-shop (ebay). See my other thread here: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=80...

woelen - 6-3-2018 at 10:16

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Just tried to order (among a handful of other chemicals) dichloromethane from APC and they sent me an email stating something vague about 2014 precursor legislation (but DCM isn’t on the list of regulated substances re EPP licensing). Stated that they will only sell to businesses/sole traders/holders of a home office license. Anyway I am a sole trader so I filled in the declaration of use form that they asked for, specifying the use as lab solvent/reagent. They didn’t accept that and want clarification as to the use as it’s a residential address. I’m not really sure what to tell them beyond “lab solvent”. Am I meant to list every possible thing I might want to dissolve in DCM?

It looks like APC is more Roman than the Pope.
Last week I purchased DCM 99.8% (300 ml) without any paperwork and no questions asked. DCM is not on any list as far as I know.
It looks like we lost another nice source of chemicals. In the past I ordered quite a few interesting chemicals from APC (they also shipped to NL, according to ADR regulations, for a fixed price, so when combined, shipping was quite cheap). Right now apparently they lost interest in the market of private customers. As others said, find another seller and purchase DCM from that seller.

DavidJR - 6-3-2018 at 10:54

To clarify, they didn't say that they will no longer sell anything at all to non-businesses, just a certain list of products which for some bizarre reason includes DCM.

DavidJR - 6-3-2018 at 11:02

Also, there does seem to be an EU regulation prohibiting the use of DCM as a paint stripper, and this was mentioned in the declaration of use form they sent. However even though I made it clear that I don't intend to use it as a paint stripper, they still aren't satisfied unless I can provide a more detailed statement than just "lab solvent".

Why is it such a hassle to buy DCM of all things?!

woelen - 7-3-2018 at 00:08

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Also, there does seem to be an EU regulation prohibiting the use of DCM as a paint stripper[...]
This is the REACH regulation. As I wrote before, many chemicals may not be marketed anymore as a constituent of consumer products. E.g. sodium dichromate in mordants, DCM in paint stripper, arsenic compounds in wood treatment. In such products, usually the chemical is present, unknown to the user (of course it is mentioned on the label, but still, the user does not buy it explicitly for that chemical), but by using it in consumer products large amounts get into the environment and many people are exposed to the chemical. REACH, however, does not tell anything about the sale and use of the pure chemical, mentioned by its chemical name (and not some brand name or product name), and used in a lab. REACH hence will make many chemicals non-OTC, they disappear from the shelves of hardware stores, drugstores, supermarkets, but you still can buy the pure chemical from chemical supply houses. It of course is up to the chemical supply house whether they want to sell it to individuals or not.
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