Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Grafting alkaloid producting plants to non-alkaloid producing plants - effect on production rate?

RogueRose - 13-12-2017 at 02:49

I've been watching the "Hamilton's Pharmacopoeia" video series and the season 2 ep 2 was about peyote , Season 2 ep 1 was about 5 Meo-Di-DMT which was extracted from frog "venom" glands and the current episode is able Kratom which is a part (or whole leaf/bark??) of the Mitragyna speciosa which is native to SE Asia - where Kratom is largely outlawed in some countries and legal in others. The 2 main alkaloids are: Mitragynine and 7-Hydroxymitragynine but they say that there are 25-40 other alkaloids in the plant, though at what percentages, IDK.

When watching the peyote video, they are getting scarce in their native habitat (as well as the toad's for their "venom". In Thailand, the peyote is grown for sale to cacti-philes and they use a time tested technique that works amazingly well with cactus. They take a well established root stock of some hardy cactus, cut off the top 1/2" or so, then cut a part of the peyote button so that it fits atop the established cactus, then rotate to get air bubbles out and then use scotch tape to tape the peyote to the cactus and it will grow anywhere from 10-400x faster than on it's own. A lot has to do with environment, soil and "love" by the grower. I've grafted cacti before and it is easy and fun!


Now I have also come across fruit trees that produce 2-16 different fruits and it is all done by grafting ( or very similar method, basically identical). The more established the root stock (what everything is grafted to), the more nutrients can be delivered to the grafted parts. If the fruits can be staggered, they usually can produce large amounts for the size, especially for all being on one tree..


Now I'm wondering if it would be possible to graft Kratom onto some kind of more robust or established root-stock, especially for areas such as those in the states (where it is legal in 42+ states). Even if it has to be grafted onto something which needs a green house, that isn't a problem.

This could be a viable alternative to extreme forms of pain where opiods aren't suggested (or possible in some cases) and from studies of people taking HEAVY doses of 1oz+ pure powder per day (for 10 + years every day) , there is some dependency but it is similar to "ritual" behaviour and not horrific physical and psychological pains from withdraw. They claim much superior pain relief to cannabis and similar to moderate to low does, high strength opiates.

With this current global situation, I think that we need to examine just about any possible option and I think this may be a very god one. I am totally against the new synthetics like buprenorphine or even methadone (seen people trying to get off these and they say it's by far worse than H or H/cocaine/benzo/alcohol all at once. It's b/c the Bupe has such a long 1/2 life of like 36-72 hours which can be good for maintenance but bad for getting off it. Many people commit suicide because of this so I heard.


The natural environment for Kratom is disappearing fast, especially in countries where it is outlawed, so re replacement option is needed. I'm wondering if synthesizing the 2 main ingredients is possible? It looks like there is some discussion about it but I haven’t looked into the results. If anyone has any input I'm curious to hear what you know or think.

Also, If the branches could be grafted onto s strong tree, (I have a couple trees in mind that may work well), That would be my ideal path of research as I think the alkaloid production would take place in the leaves and not in the roots/stems?

NEMO-Chemistry - 13-12-2017 at 10:09

If you got room to grow inside then you dont need to graft! Grafting Kratom wont help you grow it in colder conditions. The bud tips burn in early spring.

Cactus and apples etc are grafted for different reasons, overall conditions are similar to original root stock. Most people in the UK dont realize Peoyte is really common in Garden centers in the UK, many of the stone Cacti you can buy here are Peyote

AvBaeyer - 13-12-2017 at 18:54

You raise an interesting question. What if the alkaloids are produced in the roots of a plant? Then a graft would not produce alkaloids. What if the alkaloids are produced in the leaves/stem and are transported to the roots? (Note that many alkaloids are isolated fro the roots of plants as well as the leaves and stems.) What if the transported alkaloid is toxic to the host root system? I am no botanist or in possession of much plant knowledge so I may be making noise here.

AvB

NEMO-Chemistry - 13-12-2017 at 19:31

Quote: Originally posted by AvBaeyer  
You raise an interesting question. What if the alkaloids are produced in the roots of a plant? Then a graft would not produce alkaloids. What if the alkaloids are produced in the leaves/stem and are transported to the roots? (Note that many alkaloids are isolated fro the roots of plants as well as the leaves and stems.) What if the transported alkaloid is toxic to the host root system? I am no botanist or in possession of much plant knowledge so I may be making noise here.

AvB


Thats a really great point, no expert but just my take on it...
Quote:

What if the alkaloids are produced in the roots of a plant?



There are loads of plants where the magic is in the roots, apart from fruits etc i would guess Roots.tubers are second place for stores.

So in this case your graft would need to supply nutrients, and the power (sun light). Kratom dosnt fall into this though.
Quote:

What if the alkaloids are produced in the leaves/stem and are transported to the roots?



I can think of two that come close to this, thats because we both on our land. One is Rhododendron ponticum, the other is Laurel. Both produce Alkaloids that are root excreted and act like herbicides in the area around them.

In that case it would have to be a plant from the same family at least, also its unlikely to work. Take Rhododendron, many of the species are affected by the Herbicide from ponticum (nasty little bastard thats a menace here).

Laurel, again it would have to be another Laurel to graft to, and again its likely to be weak rooting.

So in this instance Graft are not going to work well.
Quote:

What if the transported alkaloid is toxic to the host root system?


Kind of as above, but i think most alkaloids in most situations dont reach the roots.
Hmm interesting question, shame we dont get the program here.
BTW no you cant graft the Toad to the tree :P

draculic acid69 - 24-9-2018 at 19:10

Grafting kratom sounds like a weird idea.would the root stock be able to support an 80 ft tree? Ppl graft things like peyote cactus bcoz they grow faster than one that isn't grafted of which peyotes are notoriously slow growers:10- 20years in fact
Does kratom grow slowly ?