Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Acquiring Lab Glassware Legally in Victoria, Australia

Acquiring Lab Glassware Legally in Victoria, Australia

Pupper - 17-11-2017 at 03:45

Greetings again
So I've been wanting to get some glassware for a home lab for some time. At the moment I have Erlenmeyer flasks, some beakers, a graduated cylinder - just the basics. I've been looking at some really interesting organic syntheses and I really want to try it out but there's one problem
I don't have any distillation apparatus.
In Victoria the law says that as long as I have an account with the glassware supplier and I supply them with an ID then it's all good. But after searching around these forums I've seen that some people have had visits from police etc.
Obviously I don't want that happening to me so what I'm planning to do is:
A. Send an email to my local police station and informing them that I'm planning to buy some distillation apparatus just for chemistry as a hobby and that I don't intend to make any illicit drugs.
B. Buy the glassware from Sciencesupply
C. Do some chemistry ye boi
Do you guys think that would be a wise course of action? Otherwise is there anyone here from Victoria who has successfully acquired distillation glassware without having the police paying them a visit?

[Edited on 17-11-2017 by Pupper]

NedsHead - 17-11-2017 at 04:11

If you import distillation glassware you are likely to get a visit from the police, even in states with no restricting glassware legislation, Tdep can confirm.

as far as I know, you need an account to order glassware from an Australian supplier in Victoria, but your details aren't passed on to police, they are just held with the supplier for a determined period of time.

I purchased mine from https://sciencesupply.com.au/shop/ (among other things) and never received a visit from the police, not that I care, having a gun license means they can walk into my house any time of day or night, but I digress..

just create an account with a glassware supplier and place an order, she'll be right mate

Chemetix - 17-11-2017 at 14:23

I have a bit of new an used glass in melb. Talk to me about your requirements and I'll see if I can help, I'm a scientific glassblower.
U2U me for my details.

j_sum1 - 17-11-2017 at 15:17

I would not bother pre-informing the police. They will be required to follow their leads if anything comes up and having sent a letter will make no difference. What will happen is that you will position yourself in their systems where you don't fit in any normal category and your status will raise red flags at random times leading to greater suspicion.

If you work at small scale you won't require an eud for some items and you will fly under the radar better. From memory joint sizes below 24/29 and flasks under 500mL.

Pupper - 17-11-2017 at 19:21

Quote: Originally posted by NedsHead

If you import distillation glassware you are likely to get a visit from the police, even in states with no restricting glassware legislation, Tdep can confirm.

as far as I know, you need an account to order glassware from an Australian supplier in Victoria, but your details aren't passed on to police, they are just held with the supplier for a determined period of time.

I purchased mine from https://sciencesupply.com.au/shop/ (among other things) and never received a visit from the police, not that I care, having a gun license means they can walk into my house any time of day or night, but I digress..

just create an account with a glassware supplier and place an order, she'll be right mate

Thanks. So as long as I don't import glassware I should be fine?

Pupper - 17-11-2017 at 19:22

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

I would not bother pre-informing the police. They will be required to follow their leads if anything comes up and having sent a letter will make no difference. What will happen is that you will position yourself in their systems where you don't fit in any normal category and your status will raise red flags at random times leading to greater suspicion.

If you work at small scale you won't require an eud for some items and you will fly under the radar better. From memory joint sizes below 24/29 and flasks under 500mL.

I see. What if I need joint sizes larger or larger RBFs?

j_sum1 - 17-11-2017 at 20:01

I should give a more complete response now that I am not on my phone.

The police obviously have as part of their job to crack down on drug manufacturing activities. (In Aus they appear to be less concerned with energetic materials but will deal with fireworks and explosive infringements after the event.)

When it comes to intercepting drug labs they follow up the leads they have which might be from various sources. One source is Australian lab suppliers. This is the reason for the EUDs. potentially they can use this documentation to follow up suspicious local purchasing activity. They also periodically check suppliers to make sure that their paperwork is ok and that they are not dealing under the table.

Another lead that they follow up is information given them by Customs. Incoming packages are x-rayed and if glassware is detected, that information is passed on to the police.

A third lead that might attract attention is information provided by the public. However, I have not heard of any instances in Aus where a public tip-off has been for a hobby chemist.

The police may pay a visit either before the arrival of the item or afterwards when they have a chance of seeing it in use. (I have had both kinds of visit.) They come with a warrant so they can gain entry, search and take photos or even confiscate items as they see fit. But their preference is to be invited in and this is advisable. That way they get the information they want without the heavy-handed tactics that a warrant affords them. And you are protected because you get to control what they see and don't see rather than them snooping around.

Bottom line, you can potentially get a police visit no matter which way you get your glassware. Local supports local businesses (such as chemetix) and is often higher quality. Online can be cheaper. There is a case for both.

If you want to protect yourself, be as un-druggy as possible.

Have a clean lab.
Have a lab journal. I got the police to sign my lab journal write their name and ID number and also pasted in their business card.
Have everything in your lab labelled properly.
Put the inorganic stuff at the front in line of sight.
If you have something in progress, make sure it looks organised.
Have textbooks, chem books or reference material in easy access like it would be if you were using them.
Be able to tell them what you are up to and explain it in simple terms -- these people are not chemists but they have seen a lot of a certain kind of chemistry and will recognise that you are doing something different.
It is actually to your advantage to have proper-looking glassware. If you are doing things in broken lightbulbs and vodka bottles it will look suspicious.
Don't be in too much of a rush to unpack your new glassware. You can open the box to check for breakages and then leave it sitting in the box in its bubble-wrap for a few days to see if a police visit eventuates. If they see that you are already doing something and that your ordered glassware is simply an extension of what you are already doing then that will look good. You will appear to have a purpose. OTOH a cook is likely to get the gear out and start manufacture straight away. Patience lends you credibility.

Remember that it is not illegal to own or use glassware. It is illegal to manufacture certain substances. And the police can put pressure on you if they have reason to believe that your gear is being used in that way. If there is no cause for them to actually be suspicious they may express disapproval of your hobby but there is little they can actually do.

j_sum1 - 17-11-2017 at 20:07

I use 24/40 or 24/29. My mantle holds 500mL flasks and I have only one flask larger. So I sit right on the border of interest. I have no real interest in scaling up bigger than that. I suppose I could have some fun with a 14mm kit and 125mL flasks but that would feel like a bit of a toy for most of my projects.

I suspect most hobby chemists who post here are much the same and use similar sizes.

Pupper - 17-11-2017 at 21:54

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

I should give a more complete response now that I am not on my phone.

The police obviously have as part of their job to crack down on drug manufacturing activities. (In Aus they appear to be less concerned with energetic materials but will deal with fireworks and explosive infringements after the event.)

When it comes to intercepting drug labs they follow up the leads they have which might be from various sources. One source is Australian lab suppliers. This is the reason for the EUDs. potentially they can use this documentation to follow up suspicious local purchasing activity. They also periodically check suppliers to make sure that their paperwork is ok and that they are not dealing under the table.

Another lead that they follow up is information given them by Customs. Incoming packages are x-rayed and if glassware is detected, that information is passed on to the police.

A third lead that might attract attention is information provided by the public. However, I have not heard of any instances in Aus where a public tip-off has been for a hobby chemist.

The police may pay a visit either before the arrival of the item or afterwards when they have a chance of seeing it in use. (I have had both kinds of visit.) They come with a warrant so they can gain entry, search and take photos or even confiscate items as they see fit. But their preference is to be invited in and this is advisable. That way they get the information they want without the heavy-handed tactics that a warrant affords them. And you are protected because you get to control what they see and don't see rather than them snooping around.

Bottom line, you can potentially get a police visit no matter which way you get your glassware. Local supports local businesses (such as chemetix) and is often higher quality. Online can be cheaper. There is a case for both.

If you want to protect yourself, be as un-druggy as possible.

Have a clean lab.
Have a lab journal. I got the police to sign my lab journal write their name and ID number and also pasted in their business card.
Have everything in your lab labelled properly.
Put the inorganic stuff at the front in line of sight.
If you have something in progress, make sure it looks organised.
Have textbooks, chem books or reference material in easy access like it would be if you were using them.
Be able to tell them what you are up to and explain it in simple terms -- these people are not chemists but they have seen a lot of a certain kind of chemistry and will recognise that you are doing something different.
It is actually to your advantage to have proper-looking glassware. If you are doing things in broken lightbulbs and vodka bottles it will look suspicious.
Don't be in too much of a rush to unpack your new glassware. You can open the box to check for breakages and then leave it sitting in the box in its bubble-wrap for a few days to see if a police visit eventuates. If they see that you are already doing something and that your ordered glassware is simply an extension of what you are already doing then that will look good. You will appear to have a purpose. OTOH a cook is likely to get the gear out and start manufacture straight away. Patience lends you credibility.

Thanks for much for using your time to explain things to me. Really helped

NeonPulse - 17-11-2017 at 23:32

I have had on two occasions the police visit me. Both times were for flagged boxes by customs. The first time was a quick check to see if I was making drugs and they left it at that but the second time they were much more intimidating and basically jerks. They left satisfied eventually after inspection of my reagent inventory. This is something jsum1 didn’t mention but it is helpful to have a book which lists all your reagents and a separate book for equipment. If you do this when starting out it will be easy. Just add items as you acquire them. I made mine long after starting and it was a pain to itemise all my glass and other bits and bobs that are used in my lab.it did hel to look organised when plod showed up. Buying locally may avoid this law hassle but you will probably not be able to find all the glass you want locally. Round bottom flasks are harder to buy and you may have to settle for flat bottom. Chinese eBay sellers have loads of glass cheap so there is an advantage but there’s the risk that you will have plod visit and he may be in a bad mood and take all your glass for meth tests. Most cops will say glassware possession is unlawful but will let you keep it anyway. It is a grey area if you ask me. We aren’t doing the wrong thing and as usual it is a few bad eggs who wrecked it for everyone. What is it you plan to do anyway? Just general chemistry? What is your interest?

Pupper - 18-11-2017 at 21:21

Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse

I have had on two occasions the police visit me. Both times were for flagged boxes by customs. The first time was a quick check to see if I was making drugs and they left it at that but the second time they were much more intimidating and basically jerks. They left satisfied eventually after inspection of my reagent inventory. This is something jsum1 didn’t mention but it is helpful to have a book which lists all your reagents and a separate book for equipment. If you do this when starting out it will be easy. Just add items as you acquire them. I made mine long after starting and it was a pain to itemise all my glass and other bits and bobs that are used in my lab.it did hel to look organised when plod showed up. Buying locally may avoid this law hassle but you will probably not be able to find all the glass you want locally. Round bottom flasks are harder to buy and you may have to settle for flat bottom. Chinese eBay sellers have loads of glass cheap so there is an advantage but there’s the risk that you will have plod visit and he may be in a bad mood and take all your glass for meth tests. Most cops will say glassware possession is unlawful but will let you keep it anyway. It is a grey area if you ask me. We aren’t doing the wrong thing and as usual it is a few bad eggs who wrecked it for everyone. What is it you plan to do anyway? Just general chemistry? What is your interest?

Yeah just some general chemistry. I've seen some organic syntheses on various YouTube channels that I want to try out (especially NileRed's).
Also I'm pretty sure it's not unlawful. I've read the Victorian legislation and it says all glassware except condensers, splash heads, RBF >500ml etc are legal without having to supply an ID or EUD. If you need condensers you'll need to have an account with the supplier and supply an ID.

WangleSpong5000 - 19-11-2017 at 23:19

Yeah I'd say it basically condensers and other distillation apparatus that may cause the old bill to give you a visit. The amusing thing is there is only one tiny Liebig condenser that one can purchase without EUD which is a B19 joint and I can't remember the length but it's very small... not only probably too small to be practical but a lot harder to find anything to fit it.

I ordered all my main distillation stuff from sciencesupply.com a couple of years back. All 24/29 joints, 3 30mm condensers, a vigreux column, round bottom flasks (one over 500ml), sep funnel etc... none of it is unlawful (I'm in NSW I believe VIC is similar) I signed the EUD gave them my ID. Now if you bought all this stuff on eBay (tempting as the price is so much lower) then the chance of a police visit increases greatly...

I personally wouldn't bother informing the authorities as you are well within your rights to purchase these things and you have done your part in the eyes of the law by signing an EUD. But it's completely up to you... whatever makes you feel comfortable

Lots of Aussies on here with plenty and experience and good advice too! Much more helpful than me lol

Pupper - 20-11-2017 at 16:38

Quote: Originally posted by WangleSpong5000

Yeah I'd say it basically condensers and other distillation apparatus that may cause the old bill to give you a visit. The amusing thing is there is only one tiny Liebig condenser that one can purchase without EUD which is a B19 joint and I can't remember the length but it's very small... not only probably too small to be practical but a lot harder to find anything to fit it.

I ordered all my main distillation stuff from sciencesupply.com a couple of years back. All 24/29 joints, 3 30mm condensers, a vigreux column, round bottom flasks (one over 500ml), sep funnel etc... none of it is unlawful (I'm in NSW I believe VIC is similar) I signed the EUD gave them my ID. Now if you bought all this stuff on eBay (tempting as the price is so much lower) then the chance of a police visit increases greatly...

I personally wouldn't bother informing the authorities as you are well within your rights to purchase these things and you have done your part in the eyes of the law by signing an EUD. But it's completely up to you... whatever makes you feel comfortable

Lots of Aussies on here with plenty and experience and good advice too! Much more helpful than me lol

Thank

diddi - 20-11-2017 at 18:35

Customs will report any glassware to police clan lab squad. make sure you are aware of the reagents on the banned list for Vic. There are many. a number of aussies have been raided that i know of

NedsHead - 21-11-2017 at 00:08

Do you have a link to the banned chemicals list diddi? I did search but couldn't find it.

I'm moving to Vic next year and although I don't have many chems or do any meaningful chemistry I better check the inorganic stuff I have is OK to bring to Vic

diddi - 21-11-2017 at 00:44

working on it

what part of vic are you looking at

NedsHead - 21-11-2017 at 01:22

North East mate, Wodonga region. I'm going to finish my Engineering studies at the Wodonga TAFE

I'm from that region and have family there, can't wait to move back actually, I've been away for 10 year and it's time to come home

Pupper - 22-11-2017 at 02:37

Quote: Originally posted by diddi

working on it

what part of vic are you looking at

Can I have the list as well?

WangleSpong5000 - 30-11-2017 at 13:23

Quote: Originally posted by Pupper

Quote: Originally posted by diddi

working on it

what part of vic are you looking at

Can I have the list as well?

Currently in the process of gathering as much information as possibly regarding the legality of home chemistry in Australia. The problem is the laws are not only reasonably new and being amended monthly, differ by state, have federal laws which may not only override and/or condradict state laws but also create wierd legal grey areas with no exsisting precedents as they have never been applied or have no fucking idea what trumps what...

The general gist seems to be that if they're are going to try to charge you for something chemistry related they have to prove intent... For instance: instructions in your possesion that outline how to synthesise illegal drugs is a chargeble crime... UNLESS, you can prove that it's is for academic purposes or you possess a licence (of some sort) allowing you to posess this material as you are, say... a licenced chemist or something (don't quote me on that.)

Obviously if you are caught with extrated pseudoephedrine HCl crytals or freebase PSE dissolved in DCM or someshit you may be in trouble... especially if you happen to have pure I2 and Red phosphorus on hand at the same time... cos it's fucking obvious what your doing. Having the latter 2 without the pseudo is a different story I think.

I've personally applied for an ABN with a mind to run a small business selling essential oils and soaps. I may even apply for a licence of somekind allowing me to manufacture a variety of things for my business... Just don't be stupid... delete any possible 'grey area' pdfs that may incriminate you. If you are certain that they are legit then place them somewhere safe. If they find said safe drive and they say to you: 'if you have nothing to hide than why do you have an encryted drive?' and to that you say: "The contents of that drive are not hidden because they are illegal... they are hidden as they contain information of a personal and private nature... my Psyciatrist can verify this"... I have a psych and they are Gods in our society... one letter from them trumps so many things in this society that they can't touch you.

It's your Liberty to pursue knowledge and no-one, not the police, the PM, or God himself can stop you from excercising what I beleive are inalienable rights... Would I risk it all for the sake of my freedom? No... of course not! Remember... we are smarter than them by orders of magnitude so great that they are to us what the severly intellectually disbled are to them...

Liber liber liber motherfucker and do'nt you ever forget it... :cool: